for c2

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm

Teratogen,

it's okay with me that you post Marlyn Manson lyrics here, and it's debatable whether they are "teen style" or not. Their intention, however, is to be taken as an addendum to music I sometimes even listen to.

I won't consider these lines as mature poetry, though. When a poet encounters a situation he doesn't like he cries "SHUCK!" (or one of the two components...) like everybody else does. She'll even write down the first halfways coherent words that comes to her mind. But he won't publish this as poetry. Rather she'd let the rage disappear, the "stuff dreams are made of" has to mature, has to be filtered, cleansed. A poet never writes "from this anger, anti-climax after"...

Thus everything is okay? Not really, because I have to ask why you posted these fragments of songs? For the sake of Beauty, or of Truth? No, your idea obviously was different from both. I dislike the intention of posting song lyrics or poetry for the sole purpose of attacking someone else no matter if and how he responds. It's for the same reason that I won't like anyone, especially not a Judge, asking questions like "Did you stop beating your wife last week? Answer 'Yes', or 'No', or I'll hold you in contempt of the Court!"

Cheers
tom

Teratogen · Post by **Teratogen** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:48 pm

i don't really understand much of what you just said, tom. who is "she" and what are you ranting and raving about in that paragraph there? and what's with the questions? are you asking them to yourself? these are not fragments of songs... they are the full lyrics to the songs. it's okay that YOU know who it is. i don't think i'm attacking anybody either. where do you get that idea? i simply wanted to know what c2 thought of them. but i really have no idea what you are trying to say.

LaurieAK · Post by **LaurieAK** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:37 pm

T~

It was a trick question and an overload of lyrics/words. Choosing 2 of your faves would have been sufficient...and yes, i certainly stopped reading, as was my perogative.

I also figured, without initiative to investigate that they were MManson's because of things you have posted in the past. You say with vigor:

the person who did write them is not a "youth," as much as you despise...

My take on this is that MM is selling something. And he is not selling it to old folks. It is youthful cliche and i am sorry but that makes it contrived. When i was young Alice Cooper was my and many others rebellious voice box. I did outgrow him in my teens. He was not as social-revolutionary as MM seems to be so i can see his staying power...but it is youthful and angry and you too one day will tire of it.

Alice Cooper is now playing golf. I'm sure he never would have donned all that makeup and created nightmares on stage had it not been for the m.o.n.e.y. History repeats itself.

regards,
Laurie

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:51 pm

Sorry to interupt the love fest between T and C2, but I'm off to Vancouver (about 5 minutes ago) see you all when I get back.

Cheers,
Linda.

Teratogen · Post by **Teratogen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:41 am

sorry, laurie. this is my life. it's not anything i can ever grow out of. i don't see myself or anybody here growing out of leonard cohen either, so i don't wish for you to say that to me. do painters create works of art to be sold as well? eventually, yes. is cohen creating music to be sold? or does he make it for himself? alice cooper is a conservative guy anyway. i remember him saying he was for the war in vietnam in the early '70s because he was a militant guy. i'll tell you, though, i got into him when i was 12. i also got into other bands, such as metallica, nine inch nails, prodigy... some of the other angry type stuff. but that stuff doesn't have the staying power, and that's the stuff i grew out of. manson is a way of life. he won't ever be playing golf.

LaurieAK · Post by **LaurieAK** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:00 am

Sorry T~

i'm tired and cranky...it comes with being /getting old. Of course Manson is whatever you believe him to be until your opinion changes. Which, from what you say it will not. I hope for your sake he does stay the same.

regards,
Laurie

Teratogen · Post by **Teratogen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:56 am

it's to the point where it doesn't matter what he does, i will still enjoy his music and his art and his words. i don't care if he gets old and starts making a bunch of acoustic music. he may never even tour again after he finishes his european tour right now, and i don't care. i've seen him 4 times already and i had a blast all 4 times. he's one of the last great showmen on this planet. but i don't need to preach. you all probably feel the same about leoanard. it's just like that.

witty_owl · Post by **witty_owl** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:09 pm

What was it Daltrey and Townshend said all those years ago?- "hope I die before I get old".

I think these old rockers are quite happy these days that they are still alive and probably squirmingly embarrassed at writing those lines.

Though I have heard very little of MM, I get the drift from the lyrics. I think that bands/songwriters such as Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, Kantner& Slick(Jefferson Air&Star), John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Emerson Lake & Palmer, Pink Floyd, Bob Marley and Midnight Oil were more subversive and possibly more skilled in their delivery when it comes to social commentary/criticism through pop/rock music. But then MM speaks for a different generation. In 30 years time, an historical perspective may reveal that Manson is also 'old hat'. That is very limited as an influence to alter the status quo.
When I was in my 20's (how long ago was that?)

I recall being so fired up with the social revolution that rode on the back of rock music, the beat generation and the hippy 'turn on, tune in & drop out' philosophy. We were the New Thing- "get out of the way let the people play" - "and we're not the way you used to be when you were very young" - "we've all heard your dirty stories. Two thousand years of your god dammned glory!"

Ah yes we were so cool! We knew it all. We were gonna change the world with our 'peace' revolution. Soon the old order would pass away and the golden age would be heralded in. The youth/young adults of today have a different voice- a jaded disenfranchised world view. The generations before f**ked it all up! We (the young) are going to see that all will soon be different. If not then we shall tell you all in no uncertain terms what a bunch of arseholes you all are.

A new voice, a new idea, a new revolution? I don't think so. Each succesive generation of youthful enthusiasm explodes onto the world stage with remedies and demands or frustrated and impotent terrorism.
The 'New World Order' is beyond our command or influence. Try as we may to speak a new message via a new style or a new voice or a new cultural movement(way of life); the state of our (in)human world remains more or less the same. Thankfully we do have skilled, insightful artists such as Leonard Cohen in these times to give us a perspective from 70 years of living and express a viewpoint that only such maturity can bring. "May the lights in the land of plenty..........."
Conclusion??

The only thing that one can effectively change is oneself. And that is the hardest task of all.

Cheers, Witty.

Teratogen · Post by **Teratogen** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:31 am

so....... is this a history lesson or a life lesson or something? y'know, i dig all that stuff, too, man. i read the literature, i see the films, i hear the music and i dig it, man. manson doesn't stand for one specific thing. and he's said that he'll be around as long as injustice, hypocrisy, and all that bad stuff are still around. hey may be old and gray and still at it, but that won't bother me. he may be doing different kinds of music, writing more literature, i dunno... but this kind of stuff stays with you till you die. obviously nothing is going to change all the bad things in the world, so, haha, you're pretty much in it till you die anyway! you ain't read nothing from him yet either! i only tried to find some of the more poetic songs of his to post here.

but as of late he has kind of veered away from some of the youthful audience. he has lost a lot of his fanbase in the past for changes in direction of music. but you mentioned "the golden age." this totally made me think of one of his songs from his last album, with the same title:

The Golden Age of Grotesque

All our monkeys have monkeys
We drive our deathcrush diamond Jaguar limousines
We're not fantastic motherfuckers, but we play them on TV
It's a Dirty Word Reich, say what you like
It's a Dirty Word Reich, say what you like

We're the Low Art Gloominati, and we aim to depress
The Scabaret Sacrilegends
This is the Golden Age of Grotesque

The devils are girls with Van Goh's missing ear
You say what you want, but filth is all that they hear
And I've got the jigger to make all you bigger
"Ladies und gentlemen
So drop your pissroom bait, and make sure you're not late
You tramps and lunatics"
Here's a trick that's gonna make you click

We're the Low Art Gloominati, and we aim to depress
The Scabaret Sacrilegends
This is the Golden Age of Grotesque

It's a Dirty Word Reich, say what you like
It's a Dirty Word Reich, say what you like

So my Bon Mots, Hit-boy Tommy Trons, Rowdy rowdies
Honey-fingered Goodbye Dolls:
"Hellzapoppin', open your third nostril
Put on your black face, and your god is gone"

We're the Low Art Gloominati, and we aim to depress
The Scabaret Sacrilegends
This is the Golden Age of Grotesque

We sing la la, la la, la la lah
We sing la la, la la, lah
La la, la la, la la, lah
We sing la la, la la, la la lah

now, i doubt most of his fans (including the youth) understand half the words and allusions he makes here, nor would they grasp his inspiration from 1930's berlin, burlesque, and dadaism. so... i think sometimes he likes entertaining himself rather than catering to youthful aggression. when this song is performed live the bassist plays an upright bass (not something seen very often with this kind of music) and at the end of the song manson (who can't play any instrument) makes a bunch of screeching noises on a trumpet.

but i honestly think that kids who were born in the late 80s/early 90s now are completely different from the ones that were born around the time i was, which was the early to mid 80s. i have seen a shift and i'm not sure i like it all too much. the youth that manson once catered to is now much older.

Critic2 · Post by **Critic2** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:55 am

Teratogen wrote:the ones that were born around the time i was, which was the early to mid 80s. .

well T- that is one hell of a gestation period. you must have been quite enormous when you finally emerged!

To quote Marilyn Manson (unrelated) "la la la la"

regards

C2

paints · Post by **paints** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:13 pm

My dear boy,
More cleverness! Tsk tsk. The young T is simply struggling, you know, the kind of struggle that LC has addressed throughout his life. It's a struggle most of us can relate to on some level, his happens to be from the perspective of youth. Witty and LaurieAK have taken the time to address it.

But, of course, for you to address it would require "deep thought". And, as we have witnessed, that is not in your bag of tricks. But fear not. That is precisely why we are working together! With patience (I have an abundance) and time, you can find that voice that is not naturally your own. Witty put it so well when he said "The only thing that one can effectively change is oneself. And that is the hardest task of all."

I strongly believe that within a few months you will be able to write something with substance and grow out of your need for the clever barb. Hope springs eternal!

LaurieAK · Post by **LaurieAK** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:26 pm

T~

If you haven't already, it might be interesting to take a side trip on this and go to the source (of a sort) related to poetry.

The bios of Christopher Isherwood/Auden/Stephen Spender are all interlaced and they were highly involved with the goings on in Berlin-The cabaret society in those times was (i think!) the nexus of what MM and his kind emulate with the androgeny persona.

I find the 'connectiveness' of things to be infinately fascinating....

regards,
L

Teratogen · Post by **Teratogen** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:40 am

interesting. manson has never specifically name-dropped those three names, and normally he does that if he thinks it'll get his fans into what he's into. he once name-dropped marcel duchamps, hahaha. so, i went and looked him up. but i will check them out. thank you.

witty_owl · Post by **witty_owl** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:15 am

Hi T. History lesson? Life lesson?

Well if you find any lessons here who am I to contradict? T'was not the intent of the posting (to give lessons); I was simply trying to give a mature perspective on my youthful delusions to demonstrate how deeply held viewpoints can change significantly over time and through experience.
I wonder if "The Golden Age Of Grotesque" is also a reference to Crowley's Golden Dawn?

Cheers, Witty.

tom.d.stiller · Post by **tom.d.stiller** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:39 pm

Teratogen wrote:i don't really understand much of what you just said, tom. who is "she" and what are you ranting and raving about in that paragraph there? and what's with the questions? are you asking them to yourself? these are not fragments of songs... they are the full lyrics to the songs. it's okay that YOU know who it is. i don't think i'm attacking anybody either. where do you get that idea? i simply wanted to know what c2 thought of them. but i really have no idea what you are trying to say.

"who is she?" - Well, teratogen, the thought entered my mind that a poet can be female as well as male, I know some female poets who really excel, and some of the best poets in this forum actually are female. To keep gender prejudice out of the paragraph I decided to switch from female pronouns to male, and back. (Not sooo unusual a technique...)

"what are you ranting and raving about in that paragraph there?" - A good poem usually is very far away from the original emotion that got it started. Thus it can express the same feeling in a more mature way, and the essence of the poem then has gained independence from the singular event.

An example: Dylan Thomas wrote "Do not go gentle into that good night" on occasion of his father's death. Had he but written down his original emotions, his poem, his father, and the poet himself would be completely forgotten outside a small family circle., and rightly so. But he created a miraculous poem that, in a way, keeps all of them alive, and will continue doing so for a very very long time. Most of us will be forgotten by then, even by our own offspring, and I guess, MM will be forgotten as well.

"they are the full lyrics" - I know, but in these cases the "full lyrics" represent but fragments of possible songs.

You can deny the intent of attacking, and for the sake of avoiding a futile discussion about "intent", "purpose", I'll accept that denial at face value - still the momentum of attack, to my old mind, is visibly there.

Cheers
tom