When you are old (WBYeats)

[mat james]

When You Are Old

When you are old and grey and full of sleep,
And nodding by the fire, take down this book,
And slowly read, and dream of the soft look
Your eyes had once, and of their shadows deep;

How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars.

-- William Butler Yeats

But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

Has anyone ever said it better?

Matj

[lizzytysh]

I'm totally taken by this exquisite study of beauty and aging and being who we are, Mat. I felt the same about the two lines you've highlighted.

Thank you for posting this incredible, love poem, Mat.


~ Lizzy

[Red Poppy]

Does it matter, and I simply ask this, that Yeats had fascist tendencies? I would ask the same about Pound.
The knowledge of a writer's life, as opposed to his work, often colours our view of the work.
I just throw the question out there.
Interested in hearing any replies there be might be on the subject.

[lizzytysh]

But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

Did his fascist tendencies perhaps add to that very thing he admired so much in her. He seemed to love her freedom of spirit.

Knowing what you've said doesn't diminish my appreciation of this poem. If anything, it adds to it... as the poem suggests to me [in light of that information] that he connected with something deeper in her, something that has to do with the uncontrollability of the human spirit, as it goes beyond such intense restriction.


~ Lizzy

[Birdonawire]

I know you're talking about yeats and not Wagner, but this may answer your question RP. At least from my perspective:

"Richard Wagner (1813-1883) who regarded himself as "the most German of men", "the German spirit" is not only known because of his 13 operas and numerous other compositions but also because of his inevitable influence on our understanding of German culture and history. He has been classified as an anarchist and a socialist and, simultaneously, as a proto-fascist and nationalist, as a vegetarian and an antisemite... In fact, his name has appeared in connection to almost all major trends in German history of the 19th and 20th centuries."

Wagner was a right bastard really, but his music is beautiful. I agree with you both but have to admit, although I like his music, every time I hear wagner I cringe a little.

[Red Poppy]

Lizzy,
Yeats was talking here about Maud Gonne, who had turned down his proposal of marriage years before, instead marrying Maj John MacBride who was one of the leaders of the 1916 rebellion against British rule in Ireland, he was executed for his part in that rebellion.
So, yes, you could argue that he admired her spirit but I don't quite know whether you're saying he was "trapped" in his right wing views yet admired the freedom of her ostensibly left-wing views?
Can one not step out of those views if one sees the folly of that way?
Birdon...
I take your point about Wagner. I would differentiate, of course, between those artis who were taken up by a cause, rather than those who embraced a cause freely

[lizzytysh]

Yes, of course, you are far more familiar than I am with Yeats and the situation of this poem.

Can one not step out of those views if one sees the folly of that way?

Yes, of course, they can... as far as I'm concerned, anyway. Who knows at what point a person may be on that continuum wherein he will take that step? Surely, love for a woman could be an inspiration in that direction. He could have certainly appreciated what he saw in her on its own merits and have seen it in bas relief to his own views. Change has come that way, previously. As I understand the film I've yet to see, The Lives of Others is at least somewhat a study of that very thing.



~ Lizzy

[Birdonawire]

Good point RP, although I don't claim to know very much about either artist. I tend to paint all fascists with the same brush. But I do agree that when one is young and impressionable that is one thing. But when someone takes up these views as an adult it is quite different. The thing is, when you grow to be an (educated) adult, particularly an artist as artists have a tendency to study/look at the world around them in more detail than the average person (I think), then extremist positions such as extreme nationalism have no place. I think in either case a reader or listener, if aware of the author/composer's views, Can't help but have their judgement influenced. Just my humble, ignorant opinion but there you go. Again, I do not claim to have any real understanding/knowledge of either person.

[Red Poppy]

Picking upon what I was writing (at length) about on the poetry section. I think each of us has an equal entitlement to an opinion on this, Birdonawire and Lizzy. You don't need to be a Rhodes scholar or a historian to have an opinion. Good on you

[Joney]

I find this quite an interesting discussion. I remember years ago listening to a Frank Sinatra record and one of my husbands friends said "You can't like Frank Sinatra, he had Mafia connections". Also, my brother is an artist and we had a similar discussion about artists who are, as we would say in Ireland, loop the loopers but nevertheless produce exquisite art. My brother thinks that it is the art that speaks to people.

Read this and weep. Whatever anybody thinks about Yeats as a man he was a brilliant poet.

From `Under Ben Bulben'
Under bare Ben Bulben's head
In Drumcliff churchyard Yeats is laid.
An ancestor was rector there
Long years ago, a church stands near,
By the road an ancient cross.
No marble, no conventional phrase;
On limestone quarried near the spot
By his command these words are cut:

Cast a cold eye
On life, on death.
Horseman, pass by!

The last few lines could be in a Leonard Cohen song.

Maud Gonne used to live across the road from my mother. My mother was young at the time and remembered seeing her "tall and dressed in black, wandering around the grounds".

[Red Poppy]

I often had the same thoughts about Sinatra myself but it was easy because I only ever liked four of his songs.
Yes Yeats is a great poet but Kavanagh is the people's poet, in my opinion.

[lizzytysh]

Maud Gonne used to live across the road from my mother. My mother was young at the time and remembered seeing her "tall and dressed in black, wandering around the grounds".

This is what's inclined to make me weep.


~ Lizzy

[mat james]

Interesting thoughts you people have taken me to.
I have to ask myself:

Is "Nature" a fascist? (survival of the fittest)
Is it the fascist in the socialist, who excells?
Are all things fascist, "bad"?
Are all things socialist, "good"? ( I doubt it.)
There is a certain appeal in the persuit of personal excellence, for purely selfish reasons.
Poets and artists (and sportspeople for that matter) live this.
Because of their self-centredness they often destroy the "social" fabric around them. (family and friends)
I would argue that there is a spark of fascism in every "winner" who makes it past the rest and excells.
And I would also argue that there is a spark of the socialist in every hero/heroine who in some way protects the vulnerable.

Frank could sing (and, as Mohammad Ali might say, "he didn't call Sammy Davis Jnr "Nigger", but assisted him always)
Yeats could write
Wagner can lift the soul
And who cares if not one of them is perfect?
Their "Art" takes us to beauty, our beauty;

but back to my original question.
Is "Nature" a fascist?

Matj

[Joney]

I love Frank Sinattra's voice, and my friends statement was quite fascist in itself. If I am were allowed to listen to perfect people then I couldn't listen to anybody in this world, or to view the art of perfect artists then nobody could measure up. I have, and will, continue to enjoy Frank's music.

Their "Art" takes us to beauty", our beauty;

I couldn't agree more, that was my brother's point also.

This is what's inclined to make me weep.

This does paint rather a sad picture doesn't it Lizzy but is was my mother's abiding memory of Maud Gonne.

Some of the poetry that Yeats wrote about Maud Gonne includes;

I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

I agree that Kavanagh is great. I loved the "stony grey soil" and the "burglary of the bank of his youth". Yeats v Kavanagh though, I'm not sure, they're both great.

I've noticed that there are quite a few Irish people here on the LC board. This makes me wonder if the Irish are a particularly poetic lot?

Is "Nature" a fascist?

Most probably.

Regards
Joney

[lizzytysh]

Hi Joney ~

This is what's inclined to make me weep.

This does paint rather a sad picture doesn't it Lizzy but is was my mother's abiding memory of Maud Gonne.

Some of the poetry that Yeats wrote about Maud Gonne includes;

I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

My feelings of sadness come from the confirmation that this vision, of her often being seen walking the grounds wearing black, brings for of how well-placed were his words for her. In her way, she clearly loved him, as well. These last two lines that you've quoted say so much as to how personally influenced he was by her.

I agree, too, Mat, on how

Their "Art" takes us to beauty", our beauty;

~ Lizzy