"do you" vs "do ya"

[suzanneorange]

Does anyone know why Leonard stopped saying "Do ya" in Hallelujah?

[Steven]

Hi,

I don't know why others didn't reply. My feeling is that the "do you" is more respectful
and comes from a more peaceful place within Leonard Cohen than the previously
delivered "do ya." The "do you" is more responsive. The "do ya" is more reactive.

[linda_lakeside]

Leonard has always been noted for his precise enunciation, as in Master Poems - every word is 'precise'. I think 'do ya' is a way of communicating in the common vernacular - speaking in a loose, and 'general' way. The alliteration is a way of communicating what he feels, I think,or speaking to his audience in a way he thinks 'they' may feel, as he knows the difference between 'do you' and 'do ya'. It's a way of communication in it a subtle form. But then, I'm crazy, and wear bells on my toes. So who knows?

[UrPal]

The "do ya" seemed more rock'n'roll to me - like the "hero" of the piece seemed to be saying, "OK, it's only rock'n'roll. I like it a lot, but you don't get it, do ya?". It also had a more accusative, assertive and distinctual thrust. And in that sense it continued the flag waving sentiment of "we are ugly but we have the music" for music lovers the world over.

Not that this is as big an issue as the "anal sex" thing . If you get here, Dr H Guy, it has occurred to me since our previous discussion about this that the "anal sex" line is important in setting up the sideswerving joke of the "stuff it up the hole in your culture" which follows it. The original verse works more effectively in saying to the listener ,"A plague on both your houses, you vacuous bastards. At the same time I recognise that I'm a fully paid up participant in that vacuum" as the two parts marry up more self-evidently.

[linda_lakeside]

Sorry, I'm not DrHGuy, but I agree with your rock and roll analogy. Also,', do you, rhymes. Do ya, doesn't. I think he's kind of eased his way out of the rock talk, don't ya think?

[lizzytysh]

So who knows?

Everybody .


Actually, I wondered about that switch, too, as I've preferred the slightly harder-edged "do ya" ~ however, I can understand and relate to the explanations that have been given, so can accept the change. For me, "do ya" brought more distinct closure to the line and the question. Anyway will work, though... no real complaint for me here.


~ Lizzy

[AvidCohenFan]

Sorry, I'm not DrHGuy, but I agree with your rock and roll analogy. Also,', do you, rhymes. Do ya, doesn't. I think he's kind of eased his way out of the rock talk, don't ya think?

Do ya rhymes with Hallelujah though

[MaryB]

I remember the time my husband came home and said to me, "Come here, Mary, you have to hear this.". He had been listening to 'The Future' in the vehicle and had just become aware of the a... sex phrase. That phrase made him listen more closely to all the lyrics of this song and he finally 'got it'. This phrase and the 'do ya' do add 'thrust' (UrPal) and 'harder edge' (Lizzy) that are crucial to these songs and really make one pay attention to what is being said.

Since, so many of his fans have been following him for decades, we understand why the original phrasing was in place. If he has changed these phrases so as not to offend the 'delicate' sensibilities of his maturing fan base, I wish he hadn't done so. If as Dr H Guy, I think, said somewhere along the line, that it might be a question of trying to appease the venues' protocols, I understand. But, I still miss them.

Kindest regards,
Mary

[sirp2000]

Sorry, I'm not DrHGuy, but I agree with your rock and roll analogy. Also,', do you, rhymes. Do ya, doesn't. I think he's kind of eased his way out of the rock talk, don't ya think?

But what does "Do you" rhyme with? Surely it was written specifically so that "Do ya" rhymes with Hallelujah. It's not pronounced Halleluyoo.

Also look at the end of the line in the other six verses:

(over)threw ya
to ya
fool ya
knew ya
do ya
(out)drew ya

These all rhyme with Hallelujah where "you" doesn't.

I guess Leonard now thinks that the "respectful" pronunciation is more important than trite rhyming!

[imaginary friend]

ACF wrote:

Do ya rhymes with Hallelujah though

I agree, it's hal-ay-loo-ya
not hal-ay-loo-yoo

I prefer 'do ya' as well, but Leonard himself radiates more dignity and depth these days, maybe that's why he put 'do ya' to bed. 'Do you' seems more in keeping with the 'feel' of the concerts on this tour.

I think the thing I love the most about Leonard, is the way that his music and poems have shifted as he has grown and changed. From romantic youth, through ladies' man, spiritual seeker, been-around-the-block, political prophet, up to present-day, mature-man-of wisdom-but-still-sexy. And he's taken us along for the ride; allowed us into his life; shared his ideas and his beliefs with us. What a remarkable thing to do!

[MaryB]

IMHO, the 'ya' is more for impact than for 'trite rhyming'. In his poetry and songs, LC does not always stick to rhyming to get his message across.

Kindest regards,
Mary

[lizzytysh]

Reasoning I can live with, Sheila ... [still miss the ya, though ].

Trite rhyming? Leonard?? Mmmm. Wrong guy .


~ Lizzy

[MaryB]

[still miss the ya, though ].


~ Lizzy

Agreed Lizzy!

Don't coddle us Leonard, we can take it!

Best regards,
Mary

[Steven]

Hi Mary and everyone,

I don't think Leonard is coddling us. Matter of fact, never took the "ya"
or "you" personally and considered it as directed to someone other than the
song hearer (that the song hearer was 3rd party to the lyrics).

[lizzytysh]

Hi Steven ~

What I think Mary meant by the "us" wasn't who his comment was directed to [at all], but was a reference to why "anal sex" was changed... that kind of coddling of audiences's ears, sensibilities, and such.


~ Lizzy