I think it does children a disservice to shelter them from the sexual aspects of romance. Children are interested in what it means to be human, and we shouldn't hide it from them. I'm not saying we should sit them in front of X-rated films and give them the Clockwork Orange treatment, far from it. I'm no psycho (OK, maybe a little).
Here's what I got when I asked at age five why my Mommy had eaten our baby. (How else do things get into your belly?) "Daddy has a special tool that he puts inside Mommy. That fertilized the egg. Girls have eggs. Boys have the fertilizer." My Dad was a golf course guy, so I could go along with that. He had tools and fertilizer. Here's what I got at age eleven when I asked what happens when sex happens? "A man and a woman hug and kiss for a little while, then the man inserts his penis into the woman's vagina."
God, doesn't that sound static? boring? What's so interesting about it? What's all the hype, Mom?
Leonard has lots of songs where sex is present without being porn. (I'll try to keep Beautiful Losers from my child until she's at least 15, maybe older depending on my assessment of her sensibilities.) Why not let a child experience these snipets of beauty? Even if they don't understand every aspect of it, I think they deserve the credit that they can handle the language of it, the beauty of it, the fun.
What of Leonard's songs are appropriate for children?
Hmmm, it seems to me the question here is not just about what songs would be apropriate for children, but also what would the children understand from them. If you want them to understand them the way adults do, that's not very fair, and kind of hopeless.
Cohen hadn't gotten to us when I was a child, but my father used to put me to bed when I was about 9 or 10 with Vivaldi, Mozart and Edith Piaf; and learning later about Edith Piaf's life and what she sings about, I certainly don't think she's very "apropriate". But at that time I didn't understand a word and I wouldn't care, anyway; the feeling she was sharing was of being alive and it was simply beautiful, even if slightly disturbing (it was actually one of the few recordings that wasn't very succesful in getting me to sleep). And even if I didn't understand it then, I think that musical education has influenced me deeply; I still have different tastes from the rest of my (young) generation.
Maybe something similar applies to Cohen. I think a child may understand things in a more emotional way and care less about the words. That's why the earlier songs seem to me a better choice; there is more... innocence (or purity? I lack the word here) in their sound. The sound of the later songs is already coming from someone who has been through life and its disappointments; probably harder for a child to relate to that.
But then, I talk from the point of view of someone who is not a native english speaker; and I admit that when first hearing Cohen it took me about 3 months to realise what Chelsea Hotel was speaking about
Sounded innocent enough to me!
Laura
Cohen hadn't gotten to us when I was a child, but my father used to put me to bed when I was about 9 or 10 with Vivaldi, Mozart and Edith Piaf; and learning later about Edith Piaf's life and what she sings about, I certainly don't think she's very "apropriate". But at that time I didn't understand a word and I wouldn't care, anyway; the feeling she was sharing was of being alive and it was simply beautiful, even if slightly disturbing (it was actually one of the few recordings that wasn't very succesful in getting me to sleep). And even if I didn't understand it then, I think that musical education has influenced me deeply; I still have different tastes from the rest of my (young) generation.
Maybe something similar applies to Cohen. I think a child may understand things in a more emotional way and care less about the words. That's why the earlier songs seem to me a better choice; there is more... innocence (or purity? I lack the word here) in their sound. The sound of the later songs is already coming from someone who has been through life and its disappointments; probably harder for a child to relate to that.
But then, I talk from the point of view of someone who is not a native english speaker; and I admit that when first hearing Cohen it took me about 3 months to realise what Chelsea Hotel was speaking about
Sounded innocent enough to me!Laura
Hi Manna ~
I'm in agreement with you for all the reasons and examples you've given. Well said and well cited. Even though I got an edited line whose time would suggest I had, I truly did not read your posting here before I edited the sentence in my previous posting to reference "with the richness that will be accessible to them; and the deeper, more complex understanding[s]":
Quoting myself:
~ Lizzy
I'm in agreement with you for all the reasons and examples you've given. Well said and well cited. Even though I got an edited line whose time would suggest I had, I truly did not read your posting here before I edited the sentence in my previous posting to reference "with the richness that will be accessible to them; and the deeper, more complex understanding[s]":
Quoting myself:
Some songs might be premature for a child, but for the most part I honestly feel that most will be a matter of layers and the doors and windows that they're capable of opening, with the richness that will be accessible to them; and deeper, more complex understanding[s] will come with the years.
~ Lizzy
Well, I only just now saw your posting, too, Laura. . . . the feeling she was sharing was of being alive and it was simply beautiful, even if slightly disturbing
. . . at this point, I would add emphasis to "if," in specifically speaking of Leonard's songs.
(it was actually one of the few recordings that wasn't very succesful in getting me to sleep)
... I can't imagine going to sleep when Edith Piaf was singing, either...
And even if I didn't understand it then, I think that musical education has influenced me deeply;
. . . yes, that is an invaluable reality. . .
... true... not everyone goes with the flow of their peers, and those who don't seem to benefit more.I still have different tastes from the rest of my (young) generation
Maybe something similar applies to Cohen. I think a child may understand things in a more emotional way and care less about the words.
... this reminds me, too, of how non-English speakers who talk about falling in love with Leonard's voice, the music, and the emotion that's so clearly there in his songs.
... and, for me, I can easily imagine putting a child to sleep to "Ten New Songs," as well as to "Blue Alert."That's why the earlier songs seem to me a better choice
[Okay, I think it's all easier to read now
.]~ Lizzy
Last edited by lizzytysh on Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lizzy,
I took a while in composing my message, then stopped and went to word before bringing it back, so the order of post doesn't really matter to me. Also, I've edited my previous posts and I never see that little "so many times" line in my own posts. Why is that, do you think? I don't really car if a person changes his/her mind. I do it ewvery day!
And I agree with what you've said too!
I took a while in composing my message, then stopped and went to word before bringing it back, so the order of post doesn't really matter to me. Also, I've edited my previous posts and I never see that little "so many times" line in my own posts. Why is that, do you think? I don't really car if a person changes his/her mind. I do it ewvery day!
And I agree with what you've said too!
... yeah, Manna, that "edited line" bit is just a 'visual' thing with me. Plus, I'm always wondering what else someone added or changed... and then try to reread their posting to see what's different.With me on yours, it was simply a matter of agreeing to a high degree with what you'd written, without realizing, yet, that you'd written it. I just wanted to make that aspect clear.
Now, why you don't see the edited lines in your postings, I don't know. The only times they show up is when you've edited AFTER someone else has posted beneath you. THEN, they show up. If your posting is still the last one, then you can edit all day and all night, and there won't be an edited message there.
I just tried my posting to Laura in several different ways, until I finally got it to where it was somewhat readable. In that case, I couldn't care less about that edited line. I figured by the time I finished messing with it that surely someone else would have posted something... and I was right... and it was you
.I wish I had had Leonard's music to listen to when I was younger. I'd maybe have ended up majoring in literature
.On Chelsea Hotel, the reference to "she fixed herself, being so closely aligned with, "... and then said, well never mind... we are ugly, but we have the music... ," I took for many years to be referring to her having gotten up from the bed, gone to the mirror to "fix herself," and then given up [we know how that can be
] and said, "well, never mind, we are ugly, but... " It wasn't till coming here... or there [the Sony Board]... that I got clued about its referring to her giving herself a "fix" [and I even knew that drug reference for years!] of heroin with a needle . So, would a child get that? No. Would they even get the "giving me head on the unmade bed" [I'd say not likely, they'd just sing right along with those lyrics, having no clue what was meant... well, anymore, that would depend on their age... but then if they did understand it, well, I guess it'd already be too late on 'corrupting' them 
].~ Lizzy
Re: giving me head on the unmade bed
When I first heard this, I couldn't tell from the vocal track what was being said, and just figured it was something innocent like bumping my head on the unmade bed. I had no idea, and I was in my late teens! When I finally read the lyrics, I had a little aha moment.
I also never delved so deeply into the meaning of "fix." I think I just figured she'd felt a little bad about the sideways insult - that she preferred handsome men. To me, "fixed yourself" just meant that she was trying to make the situation better after the little dig. You know? Like they were sitting on the bed together and she thought she was being witty, but then he felt bad, so she had to fix it.
When I first heard this, I couldn't tell from the vocal track what was being said, and just figured it was something innocent like bumping my head on the unmade bed. I had no idea, and I was in my late teens! When I finally read the lyrics, I had a little aha moment.
I also never delved so deeply into the meaning of "fix." I think I just figured she'd felt a little bad about the sideways insult - that she preferred handsome men. To me, "fixed yourself" just meant that she was trying to make the situation better after the little dig. You know? Like they were sitting on the bed together and she thought she was being witty, but then he felt bad, so she had to fix it.
Yes... exactly. The vocal track isn't always so crystal clear, either, when you don't already know what's being said. Very funny and sweet how you interpreted it! And, you in your late teens.
... and there ya go! Your interpretation of "fixed yourself" never occurred to me, either... and it makes sense, too... so many doors, so many windows, so many pathways... so many lanes. And, here we are adults!
~ Lizzy
... and there ya go! Your interpretation of "fixed yourself" never occurred to me, either... and it makes sense, too... so many doors, so many windows, so many pathways... so many lanes. And, here we are adults!~ Lizzy
Oh, wow, I never got the "she fixed herself" line as anything more than trying to make herself look better, or more recently 'fixing' as in cleaning up what can be left behind after sex. Um.
Anyway, I do think that for most kids the sexual or violent imagery of Cohen's music would go straight over their heads. In most of those songs you need some sophistication to understand the meanings, the same way that the subtext of traditional fairy tales goes over kid's (and most adults!) heads. With a little thought "Red Riding Hood" turns into a clear fable of sexual awakening, but most people never think about it.
But there are some songs that are inappropriate, like I mentioned in another thread. Like Chesea Hotel #2 again...
Anyway, I do think that for most kids the sexual or violent imagery of Cohen's music would go straight over their heads. In most of those songs you need some sophistication to understand the meanings, the same way that the subtext of traditional fairy tales goes over kid's (and most adults!) heads. With a little thought "Red Riding Hood" turns into a clear fable of sexual awakening, but most people never think about it.
But there are some songs that are inappropriate, like I mentioned in another thread. Like Chesea Hotel #2 again...
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John Etherington
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Interesting to see how this thread has developed overnight! Two things that haven't been considered here are the following...If a child were raised on Leonard's music, odds are that they would later associate the music with chilhood and rebel against it, hence missing the subtleties they would get from it at a later stage (better to let them stick to Kylie and Robbie!). Furthermore, would you want your child to put their sticky fingers on your Leonard albums and play their favourite tracks to death!
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John Etherington
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Something else this thread has made me realise is how idealistic my own musical journey was. Born in 1951, I was not allowed to listen to pop music before I was ten. Thus in my early years, I only heard church music, novelty songs like "Hole in My Bucket" and folk songs like "Barbara Allen". At age ten, I heard innocent pop songs like "The Young Ones" and "Summer Holiday", then soon after simple love songs like "From Me to You" and "She Loves You". The beat boom came exactly at the right age
(13-15). Then psychedelia ironically helped prolong childhood with songs from Donovan and Lennon's Lewis-Carrollesque fantasies. As I came of age (18-21), I was introduced to classical music by the Nice and "Switched On Bach". I also started buying mature popular music such as Dylan, Leonard, Nick Drake, Scott Walker etc. Things seemed to follow the order of the soul back then. Now that things are sliding in all of directions, I guess five years old are listening to rap (hence the downfall of society!).
(13-15). Then psychedelia ironically helped prolong childhood with songs from Donovan and Lennon's Lewis-Carrollesque fantasies. As I came of age (18-21), I was introduced to classical music by the Nice and "Switched On Bach". I also started buying mature popular music such as Dylan, Leonard, Nick Drake, Scott Walker etc. Things seemed to follow the order of the soul back then. Now that things are sliding in all of directions, I guess five years old are listening to rap (hence the downfall of society!).
Hi Beccka ~
. Leonard's select choice of words allows so many possibilities for the listener.
Hi John ~
Your description of your musical journey allows me to understand how you could feel as strongly as you do about children listening to Leonard's music, sticky fingers and worn-out tracks, aside . It sounds like Leonard was still right on time for you, in the sense of everything arrives with its own, perfect timing . Now, the thought of a child tiring of Leonard... that disturbs me ! Still, I feel that in some cases, we always return to our roots [as you seem to have with your own 'conservative' determinations of age-appropriateness]... and I would hope that this would be the case with children, or that the people they have become as a result of their listening [this is how I feel about it] would make a return either unnecessary, as they'd still be there, or at least somewhat less crucial.
Thanks for sharing the sweetness of your path.
~ Lizzy
This never occurred to me, either. . . or more recently 'fixing' as in cleaning up what can be left behind after sex. Um.
. Leonard's select choice of words allows so many possibilities for the listener.Hi John ~
Your description of your musical journey allows me to understand how you could feel as strongly as you do about children listening to Leonard's music, sticky fingers and worn-out tracks, aside
. It sounds like Leonard was still right on time for you, in the sense of everything arrives with its own, perfect timing . Now, the thought of a child tiring of Leonard... that disturbs me ! Still, I feel that in some cases, we always return to our roots [as you seem to have with your own 'conservative' determinations of age-appropriateness]... and I would hope that this would be the case with children, or that the people they have become as a result of their listening [this is how I feel about it] would make a return either unnecessary, as they'd still be there, or at least somewhat less crucial.Thanks for sharing the sweetness of your path.
~ Lizzy
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John Etherington
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Hi Lizzy,
That was actually a rather idealised and generalised version of my musical path. In truth there was of course some degree of overlap and backtracking etc. I heard two stories about Leonard's musical taste that I like...one friend who knew him told me that he was listening to Otis Redding again about ten years ago (listen to "I was Never Any Good at Loving You")! Also, another friend of mine who was in the band Arthur Lee and Love told me that a few years ago, Leonard turned up to one of their gigs. I guess my view of how children should grow up is old-fashioned and idealistic. Fortunately, I don't have any kids myself!
All good things, John E
That was actually a rather idealised and generalised version of my musical path. In truth there was of course some degree of overlap and backtracking etc. I heard two stories about Leonard's musical taste that I like...one friend who knew him told me that he was listening to Otis Redding again about ten years ago (listen to "I was Never Any Good at Loving You")! Also, another friend of mine who was in the band Arthur Lee and Love told me that a few years ago, Leonard turned up to one of their gigs. I guess my view of how children should grow up is old-fashioned and idealistic. Fortunately, I don't have any kids myself!
All good things, John E
John's got a point about kids raised on Cohen rebelling against or tiring of him...I'm the only one of my seven siblings who still likes him, and even I went through long periods of not listening to some or any of his music. Kids will rebel against anything if given the chance.
Laura: yeah, I was wondering what soungs would be appropriate for a child's understanding. Like you said, even if the child doesn't 'get' the entire meaning of something, are they taking away a positive or disturbing impression? And if it's a disturbing impression, are they curious or frightened?
Manna: Common, I'm sure, but still very funny.
Laura: yeah, I was wondering what soungs would be appropriate for a child's understanding. Like you said, even if the child doesn't 'get' the entire meaning of something, are they taking away a positive or disturbing impression? And if it's a disturbing impression, are they curious or frightened?
Manna:
Sorry, I just find this line hilarious.manna wrote:Here's what I got when I asked at age five why my Mommy had eaten our baby.
Common, I'm sure, but still very funny.I think a lot of the discomfort over 'exposing' kids to certain things is less to do with the child's ability to grasp the concept and more do to the adult being uncomfortable. Which unfortunately tends to indicate that there is something bad about - well, whatever is being discussed.manna wrote:I think it does children a disservice to shelter them from the sexual aspects of romance. Children are interested in what it means to be human, and we shouldn't hide it from them. I'm not saying we should sit them in front of X-rated films and give them the Clockwork Orange treatment, far from it. I'm no psycho (OK, maybe a little).
Yes, I agree, Beccka. I know this is nearly trite by now, yet still worth repeating. The ideas of death and sex are both often dealt with by parents with feelings of discomfort, with both givens in one's life; whereas, gratuitous or personal violence, not necessarily givens, seems rather openly accepted and viewed together... on TV, in films, and elsewhere... and I often wonder with how much discussion and processing.I think a lot of the discomfort over 'exposing' kids to certain things is less to do with the child's ability to grasp the concept and more do to the adult being uncomfortable. Which unfortunately tends to indicate that there is something bad about - well, whatever is being discussed.
It's certainly a different world today than it was in the 50s; yet, even then, items were found beneath the beds and in the closets of parents, whether their own or those of a friend. It seems we often don't give children credit for their level of understanding and ability to process, when issues are discussed openly and honestly.
~ Lizzy