Dear Coco ~
I understand what you're saying regarding modeling appropriate behaviour. However, there's no need for you to wonder. You can continue agreeing with Byron. He remains as mature as he's ever been. I don't know if you've only recently come here, or if you've only recently joined. However, the manner of Sore Loser's post to me has been typical for his entire time here. Byron simply used an unusual, but very effective way to make that point. Your last two sentences were that Byron's posts were so unbecoming to our position [your apparently expressing yourself as a pacifist for peace and not this war, with Byron's postings being representative of our position]; and that pacifists should lead the way, yet you've only been following this conversation, and [silently] agreeing with him. May I ask that you join us in that leading-the-way position and share with us how you're feeling about it all?
Sincerely,
Elizabeth
hell bent on war
I thank you for your reply. I am saddened by this war and its hard for me to put in words what I am thinking. Everyone was doing such a good job defending our peace postion. But Mr. Byron was having a tantrum for peace. A good reason but still offputting. I hope this does not offend. I am shy in "real life". I have been told before not to be so timid. But I will try to speak out more often now for what I believe in. That was good advice. Love to all everywhere.
Hi Coco,
I'm sure Byron will answer you in his own way. I don't need to speak for him, but it seemed to me some valid frustration with pointless, immature comments, which attempt only to undermine, rather than add to anything intelligently. He said goodnite in his last post, and this thread can be fatigueing and exhausting on its own, just with the intensity of it all. When you're tired already, that kind of nonsense can elicit a response such as Byron gave ~ I thought the point he made regarding women was interesting. That hadn't occurred to me, yet would be something a man might pick up on first. With Byron's intentional tack, he also effectively mirrored for Sore Loser's the intent and posturing of S.L.'s post. In addition, he brought out some indications of cowardice being the issue beneath the tripish comments.
I know what you mean about not being able to verbalize how you feel. There have been many times on this thread when I've felt grateful to others for expressing how I felt. The range of emotions and areas which trigger them is so vast that it's sometimes difficult to track down where all the feelings are coming from, yet they are. So, please have your say...even if you are shy. There's only one you.
~ Elizabeth
I'm sure Byron will answer you in his own way. I don't need to speak for him, but it seemed to me some valid frustration with pointless, immature comments, which attempt only to undermine, rather than add to anything intelligently. He said goodnite in his last post, and this thread can be fatigueing and exhausting on its own, just with the intensity of it all. When you're tired already, that kind of nonsense can elicit a response such as Byron gave ~ I thought the point he made regarding women was interesting. That hadn't occurred to me, yet would be something a man might pick up on first. With Byron's intentional tack, he also effectively mirrored for Sore Loser's the intent and posturing of S.L.'s post. In addition, he brought out some indications of cowardice being the issue beneath the tripish comments.
I know what you mean about not being able to verbalize how you feel. There have been many times on this thread when I've felt grateful to others for expressing how I felt. The range of emotions and areas which trigger them is so vast that it's sometimes difficult to track down where all the feelings are coming from, yet they are. So, please have your say...even if you are shy. There's only one you.
~ Elizabeth
it seems as if this topic has developed into a tar pit-complete with wooly mammoths,sabertooths and vultures and all....sometimes also like a tyson fight were he manages to devour the hapless apponent,and all we can do is watch,stunned.
nothing is sacred anymore.no facts can be proven.so if we can agree that its all a matter of opinion,why argue?nothing will persuade nor convince,no matter what the source may be.an excersize in futility,if ive ever seen one.
yes,to state your opinion is blessed and noble,but can it be done in such a fashion?can one disagree with bushes policys without calling him names?
cant we just all get along?i wish to extend an olive branch to all,and go to sleep.(its late here)
saluté
elazar
nothing is sacred anymore.no facts can be proven.so if we can agree that its all a matter of opinion,why argue?nothing will persuade nor convince,no matter what the source may be.an excersize in futility,if ive ever seen one.
yes,to state your opinion is blessed and noble,but can it be done in such a fashion?can one disagree with bushes policys without calling him names?
cant we just all get along?i wish to extend an olive branch to all,and go to sleep.(its late here)
saluté
elazar
breathe deep and live
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Sore Loser
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:05 am
Byron,
There are so many things I want to say and respond to in your posts, but I can’t due to the amount of time I have today. Although, it is not the final determining factor of who we are and become, I feel that our personal backgrounds play an undeniable part of how we view the world. I know that all warmongers do not raise their families as mine did, nor that warmonger’s are the only ones who do raise their families as mine did. As a “relatively” brief synopsis of my own background, which relates to this thread and forms the personal, historical context out of which I speak:
Arguments and fights were held precious in my home. From a family of thirteen, both my parents were illiterate dirt farmers who valued staying at home and staying away from other people and their prejudices/bigotry/narrow-mindedness/whatever were prioritized high above material belongings and trappings. We were the last in our county to get indoor plumbing. Our tractor was a red, Ford ~ a small, but well-constructed, economical tractor that served plowing well ~ for many years, long past others getting newer and “better” tractors. With time off during the winter, when decisions were made regarding vacations, we got out our seed catalogues and almanacs, and each presented our destination of choice and the reasons for it. Then we had a family fight, each blow counting the same as the next. (Except for daddy’s) It created a strong sense of feeling one’s inadequacy in the ever-contracting childhood world, as well as close-mindedness, getting the upper hand, and going for the jugular. The salaries of warmongering dirt farmers from Middle America have never been sufficient to their job, and are low in comparison to pacifists. Travel was funded by “sacrifices” in other areas. We loved to invade the campgrounds of remote areas when we weren’t inflicting collateral damage on someone’s backyard. Once a Florida-born hitchhiker ended up staying with us (the prospects of doing that in those days much safer) and we showed him “embedded” aspects of our native land, until we dropped him like a bomb.
I am always open to discussion, even on issues where I may feel I have to pick on women. With regard to women in other areas, and the astrology determining their lives, my interest only deepens.
SL
There are so many things I want to say and respond to in your posts, but I can’t due to the amount of time I have today. Although, it is not the final determining factor of who we are and become, I feel that our personal backgrounds play an undeniable part of how we view the world. I know that all warmongers do not raise their families as mine did, nor that warmonger’s are the only ones who do raise their families as mine did. As a “relatively” brief synopsis of my own background, which relates to this thread and forms the personal, historical context out of which I speak:
Arguments and fights were held precious in my home. From a family of thirteen, both my parents were illiterate dirt farmers who valued staying at home and staying away from other people and their prejudices/bigotry/narrow-mindedness/whatever were prioritized high above material belongings and trappings. We were the last in our county to get indoor plumbing. Our tractor was a red, Ford ~ a small, but well-constructed, economical tractor that served plowing well ~ for many years, long past others getting newer and “better” tractors. With time off during the winter, when decisions were made regarding vacations, we got out our seed catalogues and almanacs, and each presented our destination of choice and the reasons for it. Then we had a family fight, each blow counting the same as the next. (Except for daddy’s) It created a strong sense of feeling one’s inadequacy in the ever-contracting childhood world, as well as close-mindedness, getting the upper hand, and going for the jugular. The salaries of warmongering dirt farmers from Middle America have never been sufficient to their job, and are low in comparison to pacifists. Travel was funded by “sacrifices” in other areas. We loved to invade the campgrounds of remote areas when we weren’t inflicting collateral damage on someone’s backyard. Once a Florida-born hitchhiker ended up staying with us (the prospects of doing that in those days much safer) and we showed him “embedded” aspects of our native land, until we dropped him like a bomb.
I am always open to discussion, even on issues where I may feel I have to pick on women. With regard to women in other areas, and the astrology determining their lives, my interest only deepens.
SL
As near as I can tell, Linmag, Coco, and Byron, Sore Loser is feeling left out of the unfortunate fray and feels determined and desperate to get his literal, two cents in ~ and appears more and more to be simply another naieve American, ignorant to the potentialities of governmental powersand international "relations." You are aware, right, that imitation is the highest form of flattery 
. Perhaps lacking original thought plays into it, but I'd have to see some Sore Loser postings that approach issues with seriousness to really assess that better. In the meantime, I'm only accountable for myself.
~ Elizabeth
. Perhaps lacking original thought plays into it, but I'd have to see some Sore Loser postings that approach issues with seriousness to really assess that better. In the meantime, I'm only accountable for myself. ~ Elizabeth
Am I being extremely naive here. I thought Sore Loser was genuinely giving a piece of his soul there.
I also take issue with Byron commenting on SL picking on women. I could understand that in a physical fist fight that would apply but not in an exchange of words.
Also I was really pleased to see Coco "come out" and I have started a new topic on the comments and question thread. It might only be for my curiosity but thats good enough for me
I also take issue with Byron commenting on SL picking on women. I could understand that in a physical fist fight that would apply but not in an exchange of words.
Also I was really pleased to see Coco "come out" and I have started a new topic on the comments and question thread. It might only be for my curiosity but thats good enough for me
-
Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Coco. Thanks for joining in. I agree with you.
I was being silly and immature.
My spleen is now well and truly vented.
It is never right to descend to the level I was using but it must be obvious that I wanted to make people react. It has certainly worked.
I agree that personal attacks are entirely wrong in this Forum, but there has been a dearth of representative views from some quarters, which I was attempting to draw out. The allusion to a Mike Tyson fight is 'spot on' and thanks to elazar for 'spotting' and highlighting it.
There are some who take the view that in order for genuine public debate to flourish we have to 'stick' the occasional 'pin' in to wake the grey cells up.
It is not pretty and I know it is upsetting, but I know it works and lets face it, it got you to climb on board the thread. Welcome from me and please understand this. I empathise with your position about 'shyness.'
I never spoke up in school and I'm sure some teachers were hard pressed to remember my name. I learned to avoid the limelight and developed a wacky sense of humour to get out of any bullying. Hence my reaction to SL about picking on women. I hate any form of aggressive/assertive behaviour when people want to make a point. If you have to use 'in-your-face' tactics to persuade people to your viewpoint, then as far as I'm concerned, you've lost all credibility.
Obviously, I've lost some of my original shyness and I sincerely hope that we can help you to enjoy this forum.
To the other responses to my late-night "Big Country" behaviour (Peck and Heston fighting at dawn) I apologise for the poor level of theatricals, but I hope and trust that this short missive explains my reasons for wanting to draw some real thoughtful debate out about seemingly entrenched views.
It seems that 'entrenched' is the operative word.
As I write this I feel terribly sad.
It appears that as in the last Gulf War, we seem to be losing more of our brave troops/airmen to 'friendly fire' than Iraqi fire.
I take no pleasure in repeating a phrase that I have used recently elsewhere. 'Welcome to the reality of war.'
It is a truism which hurts me deeply, even though I know we have to accept that accidents will always happen when human beings become involved in chains of activity.
More families are being visited today, by a pain we cannot begin to imagine.
G-d bless.
I was being silly and immature.
My spleen is now well and truly vented.
It is never right to descend to the level I was using but it must be obvious that I wanted to make people react. It has certainly worked.
I agree that personal attacks are entirely wrong in this Forum, but there has been a dearth of representative views from some quarters, which I was attempting to draw out. The allusion to a Mike Tyson fight is 'spot on' and thanks to elazar for 'spotting' and highlighting it.
There are some who take the view that in order for genuine public debate to flourish we have to 'stick' the occasional 'pin' in to wake the grey cells up.
It is not pretty and I know it is upsetting, but I know it works and lets face it, it got you to climb on board the thread. Welcome from me and please understand this. I empathise with your position about 'shyness.'
I never spoke up in school and I'm sure some teachers were hard pressed to remember my name. I learned to avoid the limelight and developed a wacky sense of humour to get out of any bullying. Hence my reaction to SL about picking on women. I hate any form of aggressive/assertive behaviour when people want to make a point. If you have to use 'in-your-face' tactics to persuade people to your viewpoint, then as far as I'm concerned, you've lost all credibility.
Obviously, I've lost some of my original shyness and I sincerely hope that we can help you to enjoy this forum.
To the other responses to my late-night "Big Country" behaviour (Peck and Heston fighting at dawn) I apologise for the poor level of theatricals, but I hope and trust that this short missive explains my reasons for wanting to draw some real thoughtful debate out about seemingly entrenched views.
It seems that 'entrenched' is the operative word.
As I write this I feel terribly sad.
It appears that as in the last Gulf War, we seem to be losing more of our brave troops/airmen to 'friendly fire' than Iraqi fire.
I take no pleasure in repeating a phrase that I have used recently elsewhere. 'Welcome to the reality of war.'
It is a truism which hurts me deeply, even though I know we have to accept that accidents will always happen when human beings become involved in chains of activity.
More families are being visited today, by a pain we cannot begin to imagine.
G-d bless.
to continue in the same vien as byron,
war is hell?understatement of the century!i cant imagine what the newly orphaned ,widowed and familys are going through now.tears me up.and all those that died through human error!its quite disturbing and heartrending.they told us"be prepared for casualties".how can one do that ,pray tell?i think saddam wanted this war,or he would have hearkened to diplomacy.we are giving it to him,and though this is horrible, i think we will be better off then where we started by eliminating this evil..we are in my opinion doing the right thing.i hope this is over quickly!
g-d bless and protect,
saluté
elazar
war is hell?understatement of the century!i cant imagine what the newly orphaned ,widowed and familys are going through now.tears me up.and all those that died through human error!its quite disturbing and heartrending.they told us"be prepared for casualties".how can one do that ,pray tell?i think saddam wanted this war,or he would have hearkened to diplomacy.we are giving it to him,and though this is horrible, i think we will be better off then where we started by eliminating this evil..we are in my opinion doing the right thing.i hope this is over quickly!
g-d bless and protect,
saluté
elazar
breathe deep and live
Well, Lizzytsh your respone to sore loser just makes me rethink a response that I was going to put on about this whole issue becoming too personal between you and I. I actually felt an apology was in order from me because of it becoming so personal, your constant Bush bashing has ruffled my feathers beyond my dignity to say the least. Your motives on your little peace parade are all political.
Your response to sore loser being simply another naive American, ignorant to potentialities of govenmental powers, and international relations. All that from the statement that sore loser made, because he disagrees with you. Makes me raise afew questions of my own about you again.
Do you believe everything you read, hear, see because it is within what you believe but have a deaf ear to anything else? Do you listen? It is my opinion you are spreading proganda on this board, some of it untrue, and if I didn't have to work for a living and had more time, would surf the internet and find rebuttal of your false cutting and pasting. However I do not have the time, and don't feel right about doing that. This is not a politcal battle ground. Our opinions are one thing, but that goes beyond. And please Lizzytys don't believe all you hear no matter how strongly you agree, weigh the issues.
Your response to sore loser being simply another naive American, ignorant to potentialities of govenmental powers, and international relations. All that from the statement that sore loser made, because he disagrees with you. Makes me raise afew questions of my own about you again.
Do you believe everything you read, hear, see because it is within what you believe but have a deaf ear to anything else? Do you listen? It is my opinion you are spreading proganda on this board, some of it untrue, and if I didn't have to work for a living and had more time, would surf the internet and find rebuttal of your false cutting and pasting. However I do not have the time, and don't feel right about doing that. This is not a politcal battle ground. Our opinions are one thing, but that goes beyond. And please Lizzytys don't believe all you hear no matter how strongly you agree, weigh the issues.
Linda
This is my first post. And I thought Sore Loser's parody was funny. I think the point of it was to show how a certain position can be so easily demonized. In Lizzytysh's post she revealed that she came from a background that was cultivated, intelligent, that her parents were educated and interested in other cultures and viewpoints. And the upshot is that she is a member of the peace party.
I think then Sore Loser was giving what the peace party thinks is the other side of the same coin. Since peaceful people come from a cultivated liberal background, it follows that those who think the war is justified have to be dumb hicks. Uneducated, easily fooled, unintelligent, brutal and uncaring.
The other thing I have noticed is the idea that only the peace party understands that war is hell. I think everyone understands this. I don't think that anyone here believes that war is great. I know I don't.
I think then Sore Loser was giving what the peace party thinks is the other side of the same coin. Since peaceful people come from a cultivated liberal background, it follows that those who think the war is justified have to be dumb hicks. Uneducated, easily fooled, unintelligent, brutal and uncaring.
The other thing I have noticed is the idea that only the peace party understands that war is hell. I think everyone understands this. I don't think that anyone here believes that war is great. I know I don't.
i cant believe this horiible tactic of the iraqis.the sickness is dehumanizing.to show the dead and captured troops,as if they were trophys to be taxidermied and mounted on the wall.this goes beyond all insult to humanity.where is the international community now?why dont they condemn these atrositys?
saluté
elazar
saluté
elazar
breathe deep and live
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John the Shorts
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:22 pm
- Location: Wales
Not wanting to be too controversial but the alliance has turned it's back on the international community basically saying to them:
"We don't want to hear what you want to say, so we won't listen."
Now the leaders of the alliance cannot turn around to the international community and say:
"Why don't you do something about this?"
JTS (I try and keep politics to a minimum)
"We don't want to hear what you want to say, so we won't listen."
Now the leaders of the alliance cannot turn around to the international community and say:
"Why don't you do something about this?"
JTS (I try and keep politics to a minimum)
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
- Location: Mad House, Eating Tablets, Cereals, Jam, Marmalade and HONEY, with Albert
Lizzy, regarding the tone of responses to some of the points raised by you and others, I don't really know what to say here.
If I express an opinion about one side of the discussion I will leave myself open to accusations of cutting and pasting.
If I put a question to the other side of the discussion I will leave myself open to accusations of personal attack.
If I quote anything from anybody written at anytime in any literature, I will leave myself open to acusations of bias and misinformation.
I seem to be noticing a trend which was prevelant during the Spanish Inquisition, but I'm too afraid to mention it for fear of being chastised as being anti Catholic, or anti semitic, or anti anything else.
I happen to believe that black is black, and white is white, but I'm sure that I'll be accused of being colour blind or even colour prejudiced.
Like many others in this forum, I do enjoy the to-and-fro of transatlantic banter, but I'm running out of things to mention, such as poetry, prose, historical facts, literary reviews, etc.
Why am I running out of material, I hear you ask, because the drip, drip, drip of the continual non-productive, ever-negative, constant carping of the non-creative quarter of the thread are poisoning open and free discussion.
I am waiting to hear a coherent argument which will change my mind about this war, but all I get is moan, moan, moan.
Just Listen. Everyone.
I am my own man. I support nobody in this Forum out of personal preference. In other threads I have praised and thanked eeey for some really excellent work. I give credit where it is due if I can substantiate that credit with reasoned argument.
I am getting tired of what the Ausies call the whingeing Pomm syndrome, except in this case it's not the Pomms who are doing the constant whingeing.
So stop attacking ideas with accusations of malpractice, and put your arguments where your readers can study, digest and consider them. PLEASE
John the Shorts, the point you make is a good one. The alliance are old enough and mature enough to realise that they've made their bed and now they have to lay in it. Unfortunately, it's the dead and the wounded who they sent out there who are the ones that will have to lay in their bed. Hospital or otherwise.
elazar, the exploitation of the captured soldiers, and the deliberate choice of bringing war to his region, are exactly what Sadam was expected to do. You are correct on both points.
We are playing his game, in his back yard, and I fear there are far more terrible things to come.
I pray that the allies finish this war quickly, but I'm still not holding my breath.
G-d bless.
If I express an opinion about one side of the discussion I will leave myself open to accusations of cutting and pasting.
If I put a question to the other side of the discussion I will leave myself open to accusations of personal attack.
If I quote anything from anybody written at anytime in any literature, I will leave myself open to acusations of bias and misinformation.
I seem to be noticing a trend which was prevelant during the Spanish Inquisition, but I'm too afraid to mention it for fear of being chastised as being anti Catholic, or anti semitic, or anti anything else.
I happen to believe that black is black, and white is white, but I'm sure that I'll be accused of being colour blind or even colour prejudiced.
Like many others in this forum, I do enjoy the to-and-fro of transatlantic banter, but I'm running out of things to mention, such as poetry, prose, historical facts, literary reviews, etc.
Why am I running out of material, I hear you ask, because the drip, drip, drip of the continual non-productive, ever-negative, constant carping of the non-creative quarter of the thread are poisoning open and free discussion.
I am waiting to hear a coherent argument which will change my mind about this war, but all I get is moan, moan, moan.
Just Listen. Everyone.
I am my own man. I support nobody in this Forum out of personal preference. In other threads I have praised and thanked eeey for some really excellent work. I give credit where it is due if I can substantiate that credit with reasoned argument.
I am getting tired of what the Ausies call the whingeing Pomm syndrome, except in this case it's not the Pomms who are doing the constant whingeing.
So stop attacking ideas with accusations of malpractice, and put your arguments where your readers can study, digest and consider them. PLEASE
John the Shorts, the point you make is a good one. The alliance are old enough and mature enough to realise that they've made their bed and now they have to lay in it. Unfortunately, it's the dead and the wounded who they sent out there who are the ones that will have to lay in their bed. Hospital or otherwise.
elazar, the exploitation of the captured soldiers, and the deliberate choice of bringing war to his region, are exactly what Sadam was expected to do. You are correct on both points.
We are playing his game, in his back yard, and I fear there are far more terrible things to come.
I pray that the allies finish this war quickly, but I'm still not holding my breath.
G-d bless.