No need for me to get into a quantitative comparison of how much a poet Aznavour vs. Cohen/Brel is - whether its 1/4 or 1/12 is superfluous.
I do know that I listen to CA (in English) more often than the other two - and for a very long time now. 1/12 may be good enough for me.
Do Leonard Cohen Fans Favor Sad Songs?
Hi everyone
May I give the modest judgement of a french reader or listener ? Brel is an actor. No way to call him a poet. Without his voice his songs don't live. He played his songs as an actor. But if you look at the lyrics, some of them are full of mistakes of sometimes very poor. I like him very much but not as a poet. Brassens is a real poet, as could be Francois Villon, for example. His songs can be read without music. The music is inside. Concerning Aznavour, here is a "songwriter". Perfectly written. No a poet at all. A great singer too with a very special voice.
Bye
Patyou
May I give the modest judgement of a french reader or listener ? Brel is an actor. No way to call him a poet. Without his voice his songs don't live. He played his songs as an actor. But if you look at the lyrics, some of them are full of mistakes of sometimes very poor. I like him very much but not as a poet. Brassens is a real poet, as could be Francois Villon, for example. His songs can be read without music. The music is inside. Concerning Aznavour, here is a "songwriter". Perfectly written. No a poet at all. A great singer too with a very special voice.
Bye
Patyou
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
That's how the light gets in
s?Do leonard cohen fans favor sad song
You probably know the photo of Brel, Brassens and Leo Ferre sitting together at a radio program a long time ago. Leo ferre was less classical but poetically most powerful. Not so much sadness in him. Or angry sadness . Or something else.
Brel would be the first to agree with you that he was not a poet and was surprised when, in 1962, Seghers included Jean Clouzet's book about him in the series "Poètes d'Aujourd'hui." Back then it was debated as it was with Dylan in the '60's, is he or is he not a poet? He called himself a chansonnier, saying chanson goes by in 3 minutes, you have to grasp it as it is being sung, while poetry on the printed page can take as long as you like, you can go back and mull over it's meaning.
Brel came to chanson from acting (a Catholic youth troup) and naturally theatricalized everything he wrote. This helped him to communicate with people of other lands who do not know much French and he always put on a kick-ass show ( see the videos still available.)
He combined chanson with mime, two great French theatrical arts. But to call him only an actor is a mistake. When, exhausted, his songs stopped coming , he switched to cinema and musical theatre (L'homme de la Mancha.)
Brel is so much more accesible to me, an American with only university French and what I've learned myself from reading and listening, than the others you mention, whom I am sure are worth looking into.
Also, Boris Vian. We know "Le Deseteur."
Brel came to chanson from acting (a Catholic youth troup) and naturally theatricalized everything he wrote. This helped him to communicate with people of other lands who do not know much French and he always put on a kick-ass show ( see the videos still available.)
He combined chanson with mime, two great French theatrical arts. But to call him only an actor is a mistake. When, exhausted, his songs stopped coming , he switched to cinema and musical theatre (L'homme de la Mancha.)
Brel is so much more accesible to me, an American with only university French and what I've learned myself from reading and listening, than the others you mention, whom I am sure are worth looking into.
Also, Boris Vian. We know "Le Deseteur."
Last edited by lightning on Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Kush, as I said, I never discuss personal taste. For the rest, if you are interested, it is below. I like to listen Aznavour so much. He has 80 or around this, now, and it is almost like if he is a grand father of mine, or something, 'cause I remimber having hear him singing "in the background" of my life since I'm born. 
lightning wrote :
So well said. Yes, indeed, I would have answered the same. Brel himself had no "pretention" of being a poet. Then I think that he is.
He did not write in the "perfect songwriting", like Charlene Diehl-Jones wrote it in her review of Take this Waltz (http://www.uwo.ca/english/canadianpoetr ... -jones.htm)
this is not "beautiful" in the usual sense.
The easthetic of the text is of another beauty, of much value for me, it is true for Brel and Cohen, not for Aznavour.
Now for me Brel and Cohen are more than "pretty songwriters", more than good songwriters, they have a style of their own, they are giants, they are poets.
But like I said (and Linda too
) liking a style or another, all this is a matter of taste, and personal taste I don't dicuss.
***
Brassens :
Well. I'm not such a fan of the sound of Brassens. He made great social critics, but this is almost only what I like in him.
Maybe you will find this site interesting, Ligthning :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/passage.brassens/gbrassensa.htm
***
Léo Ferré :
Now, that guy is saaad.
Avec le temps, avec le temps va tout s'en va...
ouh...
Yellowhe. I never see this picture of the 3 of them. You expressed well what I feel : less classical, more poetically powerful. Exactly what I feel.
lightning wrote :
Brel would be the first to agree with you that he was not a poet and was surprised when, in 1964, Seghers included Jean Clouzet's book about him in the series "Poètes d'Aujourd'hui." Back then it was debated as it was with Dylan in the '60's, is he or is he not a poet? He called himself a chansonnier, saying chanson goes by in 3 minutes, you have to grasp it as it is being sung, while poetry on the printed page can take as long as you like, you can go back and mull over it's meaning.
So well said. Yes, indeed, I would have answered the same. Brel himself had no "pretention" of being a poet. Then I think that he is.
He did not write in the "perfect songwriting", like Charlene Diehl-Jones wrote it in her review of Take this Waltz (http://www.uwo.ca/english/canadianpoetr ... -jones.htm)
this is not "beautiful" in the usual sense.
The easthetic of the text is of another beauty, of much value for me, it is true for Brel and Cohen, not for Aznavour.
Now for me Brel and Cohen are more than "pretty songwriters", more than good songwriters, they have a style of their own, they are giants, they are poets.
But like I said (and Linda too
) liking a style or another, all this is a matter of taste, and personal taste I don't dicuss.***
Brassens :
Well. I'm not such a fan of the sound of Brassens. He made great social critics, but this is almost only what I like in him.
Maybe you will find this site interesting, Ligthning :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/passage.brassens/gbrassensa.htm
***
Léo Ferré :
Now, that guy is saaad.
Avec le temps, avec le temps va tout s'en va...
ouh...
Yellowhe. I never see this picture of the 3 of them. You expressed well what I feel : less classical, more poetically powerful. Exactly what I feel.
brassen brel ferre
Hi Yellohe
I have that image and if somene can explain to me the process to put it in a post, i'll do.
Thanks
Patyou
I have that image and if somene can explain to me the process to put it in a post, i'll do.
Thanks
Patyou
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
That's how the light gets in
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
My pleasure You probably won't read many things that you don't know already, but this page is good, interesting, and there is two US adaptations and links toward other sites that you can enjoy, maybe.
(I was thinking that this one, Brassens, is not particularly sad, he is rather merry usually)
Patyou, I forgot to mention about the craft of song making. A song is a sung thing (like my "hero" C D-J could have wrote ) that does not follow the same rules as classical written text of poetry. Spoken language and written language don't have the same rules. This debate about songs being valuable poetry (or not) could be the subject of another thread, if not another forum, but for me, it is. In my humble opinion. 
You probably won't read many things that you don't know already, but this page is good, interesting, and there is two US adaptations and links toward other sites that you can enjoy, maybe. (I was thinking that this one, Brassens, is not particularly sad, he is rather merry usually)
Patyou, I forgot to mention about the craft of song making. A song is a sung thing (like my "hero" C D-J could have wrote
) that does not follow the same rules as classical written text of poetry. Spoken language and written language don't have the same rules. This debate about songs being valuable poetry (or not) could be the subject of another thread, if not another forum, but for me, it is. In my humble opinion. I think you can write a song with any feeling, and even without a certain feeling.
The real thing in poetry is into the view of the reader, I think, because a poem is always a symbolic thing -even if it's plain or easy-understanding-.
There's nothing more awful that a poet explaining what he wanted to say in a poem. If he really explain it, it's just because basicly that was a really bad poem... I think that a good poem explains itself...
I dont think in terms of sad or happy or angry songs; if a song gets me out of the bed at 4 a.m, I think it's a good song...
But, in spite of what I said before, I tend to think that an extreme hapiness is not something that I really like to hear....
The real thing in poetry is into the view of the reader, I think, because a poem is always a symbolic thing -even if it's plain or easy-understanding-.
There's nothing more awful that a poet explaining what he wanted to say in a poem. If he really explain it, it's just because basicly that was a really bad poem... I think that a good poem explains itself...
I dont think in terms of sad or happy or angry songs; if a song gets me out of the bed at 4 a.m, I think it's a good song...
But, in spite of what I said before, I tend to think that an extreme hapiness is not something that I really like to hear....
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
-
Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Son of the Preacher Man by Aretha Franklin song sample :
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 ... nce&n=5174
and
Sweet Home Chicago by the song sample ;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 ... nce&n=5174
I see what you mean now.
In the meantime I tried to figure out what a "happy" song would be for me, and, well, one came to my mind. It is :
I Got you (I Feel Good) by James Brown (song sample) :
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 ... nce&n=5174
which the reason for this is rather obvious
and
this one even it the reason are less (not at all) obvious (I guess it is one of those good songs who does not need to explain itself) :
OK the song now :
One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 6?v=glance
Although I much much prefer it by George Thorogood and the Destroyers :
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 6?v=glance
Yeesssss
Those are all "old stuff" though, can not think of something more... actual....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 ... nce&n=5174
and
Sweet Home Chicago by the
song sample ;http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 ... nce&n=5174
I see what you mean now.
In the meantime I tried to figure out what a "happy" song would be for me, and, well, one came to my mind. It is :
I Got you (I Feel Good) by James Brown (song sample) :
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000 ... nce&n=5174
which the reason for this is rather obvious
and
this one even it the reason are less (not at all) obvious (I guess it is one of those good songs who does not need to explain itself) :
OK the song now :
One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 6?v=glance
Although I much much prefer it by George Thorogood and the Destroyers :
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 6?v=glance
Yeesssss
Those are all "old stuff" though, can not think of something more... actual....