What do you answer when somebody calls Leonard kitschy?

[lollygagger]

I`ve weathered the same kind of remarks about my love for blues music (ie) "Don`t you find it depressing?" Depressing? Muddy Waters belting out "I`m A Man" ? Little Walter wailing on his harp? NOpe.

THey just have preconceived ideas about the music and you aren`t changing them. Somebody this week told me that certain kind of music is made by the industry for people who hate music. As in, music that challenges your ears and assumptions, that expects something from you. That respects the fact that YOU are bringing something to the table in terms of experience, emotional resonance, THOUGHT! (imagine that)... and realizes that is doesn`t have to show you everything before it takes you on the song/journey. That`s the nub of it for me... some people want to take the familiar journey everytime, a never changing GRoundhog DAy.

People like Leonard Cohen take you farther out. And if that is kitsch.. I`m on the boat buying knick knacks with the rest of you.

Lollygagging about....

[lizzytysh]

I loved this post , and the way you expressed the differences in the types of music . Welcome to the Forum, Lollygagger .

And:

People like Leonard Cohen take you farther out. And if that is kitsch.. I`m on the boat buying knick knacks with the rest of you.

Right on .

~ Lizzytysh

[yoav]

During one of his concerts, probably sometime in the seventies, someone from the audience shouted: "your songs are shmaltz, Lenny".
LC stopped the performance and answered: "now listen, this may be shmaltz to you, but it's real life to me... If I have disappointed you in any way, I would be happy to commit suicide... It's the least I could do... What can I possibly do except sing a few of these appallingly simple songs I've written?...".
I'd be happy to send the recording to anyone who wants it.

[Fljotsdale]

Sorry that I have to ask this question.

But what do you answer when somebody calls Leonard kitschy or mawkish?

(I don't know of I can use the word kitschy in English, but my dictionary says so.)

I'm from Germany, and "Kitsch" is a very bad word for me, for people who have good taste or think that they have one.
We've got so many words like "Kitschheini".

On Tuesday I was really shocked. I was sitting in a cafe with my former school teacher, and we were talking about music. Then I mentioned Leonard, that I learned about the nature of men and women and also about love when I listened to his songs.
Then he called Leonard kitschy!

Well, boys and girls: What would you have answered?

Love, Frankie

Never happened to me. I've had people say they don't like his music, the way he sings, the way he depresses them... such stuff. But kitschy - never.

I think I'd have just given the guy a cold glare and changed the subject - if I liked the guy. If not, the cold glare would have been followed by yours truly just walking away. You can't argue with prejudice.

[cdb]

In my (limited) experience and reading the concept of the 'kitsch' is widely associated with an aesthetics of deception and self-deception, as opposed to the 'camp' or 'passé' which contrast the bad taste of yesterday with the supreior refinement of the contemporary (however many minutes that may last...)

Leonard Cohen may be classified as kitsch in the sense that he is party to the mass production and diffusion of art, but who isn't these days? I have a suspicion that people maintain Cohen's later records are 'kitsch' because of the synths.

A quote from Dwight Macdonald might be approrpiate here: "Folk art grew from below [whereas] Mass Culture is imposed from above"

Ultimately the aesthetic category of kitsch is the vantage point of the consumer/objective 'other' observer of today- where even real art (such as the Mona Lisa) can be seen as 'kitsch'.

Hope that isn't too vague
or pretentious

regards,
CDB

P.S. (I owe some of my understanding of 'kitsch' to T. Adorno and M. Calinescu)

[Cohen Kid]

If some of my friends would say that about him I would be really glad, because that would mean that they actualy know him

[kleinschmidt]

Leonard IS kitchy - he loves the easy and the smart, and thank god

[Sherry]

I have met very few people who don't like Leonard Cohen's
music. Not all of them are as devoted to it as we in this forum
are, but most people I've mentioned him to have expressed a
warm appreciation for him and his music. For those who disdain
L.C.'s work, I find they have either been people who seem quite
superficial or at least have had limited life experience, or they are
people who are simply not into 'poetry'.

It could be that if they listened to it and it didn't "touch" them, perhaps
they were listening to it at a time in their lives when they didn't "need"
it. Or, perhaps they weren't really listening.

I like many kinds of music (except the loud screeching kind!), but
one of the things I like best about Leonard's songs is that they are so
unlike any other's I have ever listened to (except of course when
he is doing a variation on some country and western song) - and
each piece is quite unique. For me, that is a true artist.

[lizzytysh]

I have met very few people who don't like Leonard Cohen's
music.

In what privileged place have you been hanging out, Sherry ?

Good points as to the possible why's and wherefore's.

~ Lizzy

[Sherry]

In what privileged place have you been hanging out, Sherry ?

Well, I have spoken with friends and/or relatives and/or acquaintances from Canada, UK, Ireland, US, Norway, Sweden, that I can recall...people who range in age anywhere from mid-30s to 70. The only one's who really didn't like his music were a young colleague from New Zealand (mid20s - she was one of those people who consider him a 'profit of doom') and my own children (I'm sorry to say!) - both in their early 20's. It seems they appreciate his words, but can't stand his voice.

Cheers,
Sherry

[lizzytysh]

Hi Sherry ~

Friends/acquaintances via Internet sites related to him, like this; or through other means and for other reasons? It's one of the reasons this site and the Sony Board were such blessings for me.

~ Lizzy

[Sherry]

Hi Lizzy,

It's funny that we seem to be online at the same time - at least
these last couple of days. All the friends/acquaintances I mentioned
are people that I know personally. This is the only forum I am
participating in at the moment.

I've just been reading the stream of "favorite Leonard Cohen lines".
I shall have to think about mine. There are just too many to single
one out. Most of the one's I've seen posted I also like very much.
I was also very touched by the exchange you had some months ago
with CT when she wrote of her experience of her mother's death.
I went through something similar last year with my mother passing
away as well, and when it came time to write my eulogy, the only thoughts
that came to mind were a description of how she loved to dance and so
I spoke about taht and ended with "dance me to the end of love."
That song has always been my favorite.

Nice to talk to you again.

Sherry