A 'devastated' Leonard Cohen

[bee]

I

don't like being patronized, I'm not naive and I didn't mean Bush (Clinton wasn't much better)

It's America's political system which is at fault, not it's presidents and certaintly not it's people.

there is nothing much to patronize- just plain stupidity and ignorance
Jinxy-would be wise, if you would print out for your dear "not naive" self, what Greg has written for you, to memorize it and learn it by heart. After a time, it would settle down in what ever brain you have there- I believe in miracles- should you start thinking for a change, instead of blabbing all that propaganda nonsense, well - I don't know if your printer works, Gynemedes

[jurica]

It is to say that there is a Macedonia in northern Greece and we don't want the historical region that gave birth to Alexander the Great (although I'm not a fan of the guy) to be confused with another country...

yeah, right!
is it OK for ancient Egyptian city of Alexandria to borrow that name from you? how about the city in Virginia? can the two of them be confused? how about other (i think over a dozen) cities and towns in the world that share that same name?
or is it that you only seek your 'historical right' from the countries that are poor and uninfluential?

[Jinx]

Greece does not recognise "Macedonia " as Macedonia. That is not to say that we do not recognise the nation or their language... It is to say that there is a Macedonia in northern Greece and we don't want the historical region that gave birth to Alexander the Great (although I'm not a fan of the guy) to be confused with another country...

I am not a racist. That's one of the worst insults you could hurl at me...

But you could consider your (Greek) attitude to Macedonia, i.e your opinion that the name of historical Macedonia can't be given to Slavic people living in that area. I do not know any Macedonian and never was there, but I learned some thing from Yugoslavian wars. This idea about "historical" right is rooted in *very* nationalistic ideas, like Serbian idea that Kosovo is their because it's "historical" Serbian province although there are now vats majority of Albanians (Kosovars are they called now, it seems). Or Croatian idea that Bosnia is their because it used to be Croatian province in middle age, before the Turkish invasions. First, I am not sure that Greek has any "historical" rights to claim Macedonia was Greek? Maybe I am wrong, but I always thought there was ancient Greek, Athens, Sparta etc, and Macedonia. Alexander anyhow occupated the classic Greek, didn't he? Obviously, today Macedonia is part of Greek natioan myth.

Slavic people in Europe mostly didn't have their own natioan names in early middle age, but they took various names in their genesis. Croatian and Serbs were only to have its won name among South Slavs. Consider how many Slavic people are actually called "Slavs". In Croatia there's region called Slavonia, next to Croatia is country Slovenia (people Slovenians), and beside Chech Republic is Slovakia (people Slovaks). Slovenian nation, and Slovakian, were built in national movement around 1848, as most of contemporary European nations. Monenegro (Crna Gora) is, as both international and original name says: Black Mountain. Macedonian (Slavic) nation was shaped as nation in early 20th century, and they took the name of the province they lived in (six Yugoslav republics: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia). Macedonia got state under Tito, in 1945, so Greece is 50 years to late to claim the name: it had to be done then, with Tito. And speaking of making the nation: Bosnian nation is shaped only no, in last ten years. In Yugoslavi, Bosnia-Hercegovina was having three nations: Croatians, Serbs and Muslims. After they made state in 1992, Muslims are developing their own nation and they claim the name Bosnians - according to country they live in. Of course, there are far to many Croats mad about it - just like you in Greece about Macedonia - but you can't forbid someone to decide what the name of his language (Bosnian) or country or nation will be.

Of course not...
The matter doesn't concern me. I was just explaining the Greek view of things...

[Jinx]

I

don't like being patronized, I'm not naive and I didn't mean Bush (Clinton wasn't much better)

It's America's political system which is at fault, not it's presidents and certaintly not it's people.

there is nothing much to patronize- just plain stupidity and ignorance
Jinxy-would be wise, if you would print out for your dear "not naive" self, what Greg has written for you, to memorize it and learn it by heart. After a time, it would settle down in what ever brain you have there- I believe in miracles- should you start thinking for a change, instead of blabbing all that propaganda nonsense, well - I don't know if your printer works, Gynemedes

Thank you for your kind words...

[Jinx]

It is to say that there is a Macedonia in northern Greece and we don't want the historical region that gave birth to Alexander the Great (although I'm not a fan of the guy) to be confused with another country...

yeah, right!
is it OK for ancient Egyptian city of Alexandria to borrow that name from you? how about the city in Virginia? can the two of them be confused? how about other (i think over a dozen) cities and towns in the world that share that same name?
or is it that you only seek your 'historical right' from the countries that are poor and uninfluential?

Like I already said I don't care if you call it "Celestial Rainbow"

This is not something that concerns me...

Take it up with someone who cares.

(Although Alexandria was named by Alexander and Virginia is not thought of here in Greece as Vergina if that's what you mean.."

[jurica]

just for the record (not to go back to the argument): there's a city called Alexandria in Virginia. that's what i meant. but just forget it.

[Jinx]

Oh. I didn't know that.
There is also an Athens in the U.S. if I'm not mistaken, right?

[Dem]

FYROMians (FYROM=Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) trying to create a nation after the breakup of Yugoslavia insist ιn calling themselves "Macedonians" and their land "Macedonia".

That is wrong because their land was just a part (the upper part)of the Ancient Macedonia.

And because a nation needs a history they are counterfeiting the history of Alexander the Great trying to present the citizens of the modern FYROM as the inheritants of him etc.

That is also wrong because the lower part of the Ancient Macedonia was a kingdom,different from Athens city-state or Sparte city-state, but with a Greek language,religion and culture in general.
(all the excavations in Vergina or Pella or elswere have shown that the language was Greek and religion was the same as the one in southern Greece)
Alexander the Great had as his teacher the philosopher Aristotle and certainly the language he spoke was not a Slavic one.


So, an acceptable name for them would be Northertn Macedonia or Slavic Macedonia or Upper Macedonia or something like that and not plain "Macedonia".

The mistake bythe Greeks was that they denied the right to the FYROMians to use the term "Macedonia" into a compound name.

Demetris

PS)Greg is right that the American constitution is superior to the Greek one as far as it concerns the relationship between the state and the religion.

It is a shame that the Greek politicians don't dare yet to make the official separation between the State and the Church you see Church has money -big money-and many votes.)

But I think the American society today in reality is more religious than the Greek one.
And certainly we don't have a president or a prime minister that mentions "God" a thousand times in his speeches.

[jurica]

hmmm... i strongly disagree with you, Dem, on Macedonia (for the reasons obvious from the posts above + the fact that Macedonia was named that even whilst a part of Yugoslavia, and nobody seemed to care much for that bask then).

btw. Macedonians do not claim that they are the decendants of Alexandar or Philip or any other 'of Macedons'. where did you get that?

do people of (abovementioned) Alexandria, VA counterfeit history too?

you're talking nonsense.

[Jinx]

Could we please drop the subject of Macedonia it is old and boring...


And Dem is not talking nonsense, he is sharing his view with you without insulting anyone and without being hostile...

My God you are very rude in here, aren't you?

Absolutely no respect for someone who doesn't share your views...

I guess you also believe Voltaire was talking nonsense when he said "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it with my life".

I expected more from Cohen's fans, we're supposed to be cultured people with liberal ideas respect for other persons.
Unfortunately, I was obviously wrong.

[tomsakic]

You're not wrong, but you're simply not seing that you're being nationalistic and racistic regarding your opinion about Macedonia. I say, I don't know any Macedonian, but in my respect of that counzry and those people - as I have respect to any country or nation in the world - I will never refer tot hem as "FYR of" Macedonia.

Dem, I have suggested they could call themselves New Macedonia, like there's New Scotia, York, etc, and people in OLD Scotia or York doesn't mind, it seems. But I am not politician so nobody listens to me. I wonder why nobody didn't vame up eith that idea. Anyhow, that's for you Greeks and Macedonians to solve. One day or later you'll be forced to sit together and solve it, as everyone is.

[Dem]

Last post from me on the topic of Macedonia as the title of this thread is actually "A devastated Leonard Cohen"

Jurica:

the fact that Macedonia was named that even whilst a part of Yugoslavia, and nobody seemed to care much for that bask then

Back then so-called "Macedonia" was just a part of the "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" and not a separate country/nation.

At the same time the region of Greece were I live was called and still is called Macedonia (being one of the administrative regions of Greece).

The Greek politicians chose not to make a big fuss about the name for various reasons.

But after the breakup of Yugoslavia things changed.

And yes, the FYROMIAns do claim many things about Alexander the Great etc (all of them wrong).

Do you remember for example the first flag they wanted to use?
http://www4.tpg.com.au/gobrown/fyrom/flag.htm#2
It had the star of Vergina on it? (A symbol that was found on the excavations in Vergina by Manolis Andronikos?)

Well, they meaning was clear:
We (i.e. the FYROMians are the descendants of those kings in Vergina or Pella.)

Of course they have now changed that flag to the current one:
http://www4.tpg.com.au/gobrown/fyrom/flag.htm#1


Tom is right: "New Macedonia or Upper Macedonia" is ok.
But no, they want to be the only "Macedonia".

Well, as they changed their flag, so they will change their name.


Dem

[jurica]

for the reasons Dem mentioned above, my last comment on Macedonia was already said in my previous posts.

as for:

I guess you also believe Voltaire was talking nonsense when he said "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it with my life".

I expected more from Cohen's fans, we're supposed to be cultured people with liberal ideas respect for other persons.
Unfortunately, I was obviously wrong.

Voltaire lived in another time (when freedom of speach was not yet exploited for spreading hate and intolerance).

about your expectations for Cohen fans and their 'liberal ideas' - you can always find another forum where everybody will tell you how you are always right and they won't use such ugly, heavy words like 'talking nonsense' (sic!) which bothered you so incredibly much.

[Jinx]

Jutrica: "Sarcasm is the last defence of the defeated mind"

Tom Sakic: I'm not being racist nor nationalistic...
You misunderstood me, I am not interested in the Macedonia issue.
I'm interested in the "Freedom of speech" issue

[Young dr. Freud]

"Sarcasm is the last defence of the defeated mind"

No it isn't. It's always saying something like, "Sarcasm is the last defence of the defeated mind."


YdF