Explosions in London

[bee]

Tchoco- very good points, I agree with you.
Jurica- I really start to believe that you are trying to speak as devils advocate. Also, seams to me, that in your way of thinking, because of your rejection of western capitalism, you thought the Muslim fundamentalism as opposition to that as something positive, if not admirable, which in itself is very questionable. As mush as western capitalism is motivated by greed, exploitation, consumerism and there is great deal of social injustice, there is nothing in the Muslim world, which would show us a new way of life or progress. Corruption and exploitation goes as given in every Muslim society and country, and that presents itself not because of the western capitalism. It is in the very fundament of Muslim society, where justice can be bought by means of money or social position.
If you think of terrorism, just remember Stalin, who was a hit man and a terrorist for anarchists, who rose to prominence as terrorist behind the anti capitalistic writings and plotting of Lenin. When such a veil of communistic paradise preaching was no more needed for him, he killed also his beloved preacher, the high ayatollah Lenin, and established the most horrible state of official terrorist state, where institutions of justice and police were in hands of terrorists.
About the brainwash-of course there is one, and very powerful, because it is a huge industry, millions have been invested in that. No poor mullah anywhere in the world would dare to use that technique of brainwashing for certain purpose, if they were not very well paid and supported for that by rich Muslim rulers, who keep their eye on the target. Manipulation has been their secret tool for centuries.
Jurica, I also think that it is not too healthy to work as devils advocate too long, because the devil is very powerful, he hardly needs and advocate

[Tchocolatl]

As French Canadians say, Tri-Me, we may have lost the war but not the next battle. More seriously, conflicts are part of life, are natural, so to speak, but no need to begin to hate and kill. They can be resolved otherwise.

"No poor mullah anywhere in the world would dare to use that technique of brainwashing for certain purpose, if they were not very well paid and supported for that by rich Muslim rulers, who keep their eye on the target."

In fact, some analysis based on the economical point of view find that both parties have great interests in those wars.

For me I can't believe that the economy would crash if we stop using petrol - there is so many patents for engines using other energies - and clean also!! - (and a demand for it which is not the least) that are sleeping in the voute of the big oil companies. Why a war for the resource when we could do without the oil and make money anyway? Your answers, please.

Let se the case of the virgins, now.

A virgin is valuable because it is a female that was not touched by a male, so first, it is more safe that the babies are her husband's, second she is really the property of her husband, after having been the property of her father.

This has nothing to do with love and respect, and purity (purity maybe in regard of STD, but even there, I know that some "virgins" are doing anything including anal sex (which is very risky in term of STD), but they keep their hymen intact - take great care about that. For the purity of their behaviour, will pass our turn I guess) as we can romantically have the vision of the virgin, but it is all to do with sex, unrespect, an even less love in which it takes two persons (the virgins are not even persons, they are not taken into account as a person, killing a woman is even not a murder, virgin or not). Since when a man can love 70 or 72 or whatever woman at a time?

What do you think they promise for eternity a martyr 70 (or 72 or whatever) virgins for? In order for him to count them like sheeps for going into sleep? And all this time they are bombing us because they would say our culture is perverse 'cause the women are unveiled and not under big control? This can not stand. Even more for a woman martyr having the honour to be the chief of the brothel. Nobody would die for this unless they have had a big foamy brain wash.

[jurica]

And all this time they are bombing us because they would say our culture is perverse 'cause the women are unveiled and not under big control? This can not stand.

???

they are not bombing anybody because they think of their culture as perverse. they are bombing because they think it will cause the US & GB to stop bombing THEM every time they decide to take hold of their natural resources themselves.

i've just read this comic book by Marjane Satrapi, a woman who now lives in France but originates from Iran. the book is called Persepolis, in case someone may be interested. according to her, this was the reason for veiling women: (an extremist from the TV yells) Women's hair emanates rays that excite men. That's why women should cover their hair!

so - it's not about controling the women, or keeping them clean, but protecting them from potential racists. men, on the other hand were forbiden to wear short sleeved shirts no matter how hot it was, and neck ties... all of which is garbage, of course, but i just wanted to set the record straight.

the comic continues with the following dialog, which makes sense if you ask me:
- incredible! they think all men are perverts!
- of course, because THEY realy are perverts!

[jurica]

Also, seams to me, that in your way of thinking, because of your rejection of western capitalism, you thought the Muslim fundamentalism as opposition to that as something positive, if not admirable, which in itself is very questionable.

i don't think that. i think every fundamentalism, even every religion, is nonsense and comes not from faith but rather from neuroses.

It is in the very fundament of Muslim society, where justice can be bought by means of money or social position.

what is 'Muslim society'??? Bosnia (a neighbouring country i know well) is a Muslim country. it's highly unlikely you'll find any fundamentalism or veiled women, or any terrorists there. Islam is a religion, not a form of society. thinking about Bosnia and the bloody past - man, if there's any country that didn't deserve it - it was Bosnia. the fact is that (if i said this aloud in my homecountry, some crazy war vet would be bound to kill me) the Muslims there mostly suffered because of us and Serbs. we were killing each other (helped by Russians on their and West on our side), and Muslims got caught in the middle. so we both killed them. and little help could they hope for. terrible.

i wanted to share this information to help you understand that it's not about religion or Kuran. you talk about money in Muslim society but forget the fact that Christianity sold forgiveness for centuries, and still, at least in Chatolic Church, you PAY the priest to hold a Mass for your deceised to help him enter the Heaven. not much different from what you were saying about the Muslims...

[bee]

Jurica, I'm disappointed. I thought you knew more about Muslim culture. It is more like to be a women is a shame in itself. You are misdirecting the real reasons for terrorism smartly, but it does not work. Muslims have been practicing terrorism for many reasons, not just the oil, it is over simplification and you know it. sadly, you're doing it for reasons one can only suspect.

[bee]

Jurica

wanted to share this information to help you understand that it's not about religion or Kuran. you talk about money in Muslim society but forget the fact that Christianity sold forgiveness for centuries, and still, at least in Chatolic Church, you PAY the priest to hold a Mass for your deceised to help him enter the Heaven. not much different from what you were saying about the Muslims...

Jurica, really- you are beginning to sound like Bossman. I don't forget any facts, I just don't manipulete them when that would fit my needs. How can you argue with reality? If you've ever been to Bosnia, then you know what I am talking about. Or any other Muslim country. It is a given.

[Tri-me]

Women's hair emanates rays that excite men. That's why women should cover their hair!

Is this true Gaud. I am a massage therapist and have learnt about self-control and have learnt that men actually do have this. If a man goes for massage therapy and understands that this is therapy there is no problem with his body's interpretation of the massage. This statement infers that the men have no control over their urges. We have learnt, hopefully, in our culture that a woman does not desrerve unwanted contact or harassment due to the way she walks, talks, looks and dresses. It also infers that women are objects and should be ashamed of their beauty.

[Tchocolatl]

???

I suspect that you are doing it in purpose to keep the thread to continue. Maybe you have done a bet on the number of pages it could go.

Now I have to say that I saw a report about how they find bombers and how they wash their brain. The cultural differences and the virgins are really there. And yes, they are saying that our culture is bad for what I have said. You could find this report too, I guess, along with you comic strip, it was a French report.

Men are very excitable entities, indeed. In my mind, they ignite because of their very nature, and then turn to the outside to find a reason to burn.

[Kush]

Bee...I do not much care for your mixing up of the Islam religion itself with the virus that is terrorism. Although the facts sometimes seem to support that conclusion at this time - I contend that that is the easy way out.
On the other hand it is up to the Muslim people of the world at large to change that impression for the rest of the world and regain the glory and openness of Arabic and Persian culture of a few hundred years ago. Not for others to patronize and show endless understanding.

We should remember that Islam was the religion of choice of the most iconic American of the last 50 years. One who represented all of America in lighting the Olympic torch.

[bee]

Bee...I do not much care for your mixing up of the Islam religion itself with the virus that is terrorism. Although the facts sometimes seem to support that conclusion at this time - I contend that that is the easy way out.
On the other hand it is up to the Muslim people of the world at large to change that impression for the rest of the world and regain the glory and openness of Arabic and Persian culture of a few hundred years ago. Not for others to patronize and show endless understanding.

Dear Kush, the subject matter was not Islam as such and religion as such. But because of the fact, that in many countries where Islam is a religion of majority and rules of this religion become a law-we call it Islam or Muslim countries.
Personally, I dislike Islam with every minute more and more. There were times, I had great admiration and healthy curiosity for this religion as well for the culture. I think my admiration for Muslim culture were based more on idealistic literature without foundation of reality. But this is my personal dislike and that does not matter.
We have discussed Islam in length some time ago, I'm feeling no desire to go there any more. But it irritates me, when some of the Muslim leaders in any interview keep saying-oh, we are such and such peaceful religion, we are so peaceful.- NO, you are not, and you have never been! Kush, -you are right, it is up to them to change the impression of them selves. That glory of Islam culture is long gone, with philosophers, mathematicians, poets. Decline in every aspect is too obvious. Friend of mine from England recently visited Saudi Arabia on business trip, he was very impressed by itš beauty. He says-money talks. I guess-it talks more than we know.

Not for others to patronize and show endless understanding.

[/quote]Indeed, it amazes me, when Jurica on one hand says, that he considers religious people neurotics, almost crazy, but obviously it goes only for Christianity, as for Muslims, there comes Jurica's compassionate patronizing "understanding.'
One can live without religion, but how one be living with excluding historical truth and reality? Modern Western civilization is based on the values of Christianity, including Juricas education and well being. In this particular moment to blame catholic Church as an enemy to civilization, indicates not blindness, but more like a desire to be blind. Jurica is very young man, I would like to know what he says in 20 years, could be totally different text.
Well, as you said, there is no need to convince anybody on anything. It gets tiresome.
Tri- me, I like what you said about the hair of women-that the beauty can scare some.
Tchoco, all the above of your points are well placed and explains plenty. I enjoyed reading them.

[jurica]

Personally, I dislike Islam with every minute more and more.

this i find easy to belive.

oh, we are such and such peaceful religion, we are so peaceful.- NO, you are not, and you have never been!

never?

Indeed, it amazes me, when Jurica on one hand says, that he considers religious people neurotics, almost crazy, but obviously it goes only for Christianity, as for Muslims, there comes Jurica's compassionate patronizing "understanding.'

see how i quoted your text? why didn't you do the same? here:

you talk about money in Muslim society but forget the fact that Christianity sold forgiveness for centuries, and still, at least in Chatolic Church, you PAY the priest to hold a Mass for your deceised to help him enter the Heaven. not much different from what you were saying about the Muslims...

see - i made no differnece between Islam and Christianity. both are in my oppinion living an illusion, and both are OK by me. they can go ona beliving whatever they want, makes no difference to me.

In this particular moment to blame catholic Church as an enemy to civilization, indicates not blindness, but more like a desire to be blind.

please, oh please find me the quote where i said this!

Kush,
you are right that it is Muslims who should wash their name off. that was to most part my point towards The West. we should also wash our name, as i think we have sinned also, rather than always throwing stones. that's also why i sometimes go further 'to the other side' than i personaly would feel comfortable. just trying to keep balance.

Tchoco,
you are right. i am trying to keep it alive. i think we shouldn't close it and forget, but rather keep on thinking about what can and should be done. the problem may not solve itself. our rulers may not solve it either. in democracy it is our duty to act as dynamic subconscience of our goverment.

[Kush]

That glory of Islam culture is long gone, with philosophers, mathematicians, poets.

Don't speak too soon
The wheel's still in spin.

- Terrible Mann Zimmer

[annaedith]

just to add a note:
recently read that the "white virgins" that are promised to muslims dying in the holy war were just a translation mistake - the original text spoke of white grapes! don't have any reference for this, but it was in a newspaper here.

[bee]

Oh, annaedith, come-on, would be nice, if grapes, bless your heart.
My friend Izabella passed away, after a long time I listened to some Leonard Cohen again. Felt really good, but sad, very sad though

[Tchocolatl]

Bee, it is sad, indeed, please accept my condolence. Listening to Leonard Cohen is so comforting I prefer not add any word any more. Just listen to another song.