Why did Leonard not
Paula, you are so right. President Mobutu of Zaire has stolen 10 billion from his country. All of this was aid from the West. One of the reasons for Africa's problems is that Western politicians do not ever criticize these African leaders. They are afraid that if they do they will be regarded as racists. This is not doing the poor people of Africa any good.
"if Robin Hood wins then so do we, even if" Whatever does that mean? Are you saying that these African despots and dictators are Robin Hood's?
I don't think so. They aren't robbing the rich (i.e. Western governments) and giving to the poor of their countries. They are spending it on themselves and their clans. They couldn't care less about their people.
Positive? I would forgive their debts. They aren't going to pay them anyway. But I would not give government to government aid. There is no accountablity at all.
"A little bit poorer and a little bit less comfortable" Ha! Do you really think that crowd of rocknrollers is going to have their lifestyle altered. THey aren't going to sacrifice a thing.
I don't think so. They aren't robbing the rich (i.e. Western governments) and giving to the poor of their countries. They are spending it on themselves and their clans. They couldn't care less about their people.
Positive? I would forgive their debts. They aren't going to pay them anyway. But I would not give government to government aid. There is no accountablity at all.
"A little bit poorer and a little bit less comfortable" Ha! Do you really think that crowd of rocknrollers is going to have their lifestyle altered. THey aren't going to sacrifice a thing.
I was comparing Robin Hood to us. We have to rob the rich and if necessary, displace these despots, these bastards. I'm not tinkering with frail ideas here - I'm talking about a full blown revolution. I think Leonard Cohen's album 'The Future' was along these lines "There'll be the breaking of the ancient Western code, your private life will suddenly explode...". I know I won't be drinking Coke on the 23rd that's for sure!! The dictators will fall.
I think the new pome Never Mind depicts the situation in the world in great way. We can't do anything. They own it, they won. But there is deeper truth which will shine one day, in the land of plenty.
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
I am sorry I don’t feel very positive about it. If it appeases your conscious to give a couple of quid and feel you have done your part good luck to you. In my youth I would have joined a protest march, signed petitions etc etc as I have got older I have become more jaundiced at the way I view the world. Give the money to the relief agencies not to the Governments. Pay qualified people to take their experience and show the people how to help themselves. Alternatively give the money to the corrupt Governments and let them decide. Whatever is done with the money and whether or not the debts are absolved we all know that the same time next year the same problems will still be there and we will be having this conversation again.
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows the war is over
And everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor and the rich get rich
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows the war is over
And everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor and the rich get rich
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Here we go again, putting everything on the back of the leaders and being bling regarding our responsability, while in fact we are all concern on a small or large social scale. Some may not understand how a little action can have a big concequence and everybody is in the habit of thinking in term of leaders and followers, in term of group, social, instead of human being that groups are made of.
But things are changing slowly, and changing him-her/self for a human being seems to be the more difficult. More difficult than to do a march or sign a petition.
In Africa, there is an big Aid problem (I mean the sickness), people knows it, but men don't want to wear protection, they don't want to change their habit. And women let them do. So aid is spreading and raging like fire. No bad leader is involved here. Only a person that could change the world if he/she decided to change.
As for Robin Hood he was a former "rich" that was fighting to have his goods get back to him. Not any bandit. But anyway.
Boss, turn your head and look on the other side, for a little time. What do you see? Chinese that are producing goods for the Western World at an amazing speed, which is increasing, and for n-o-t-h-i-n-g with the result that WW is pack more then even with material things of all sorts, call it an orgie of objects that people just don't need but "buy". People here are consumers before being people. They will do anything to save a cent, on the short term, even if it means let do anything to other people. So The Good Robin Hood you have in mind, when you think of the Western World is not exact.
What is exact is that the change will come from people who will DO it anywhere in the world. Heroes without rewards of any sorts.
But things are changing slowly, and changing him-her/self for a human being seems to be the more difficult. More difficult than to do a march or sign a petition.
In Africa, there is an big Aid problem (I mean the sickness), people knows it, but men don't want to wear protection, they don't want to change their habit. And women let them do. So aid is spreading and raging like fire. No bad leader is involved here. Only a person that could change the world if he/she decided to change.
As for Robin Hood he was a former "rich" that was fighting to have his goods get back to him. Not any bandit. But anyway.
Boss, turn your head and look on the other side, for a little time. What do you see? Chinese that are producing goods for the Western World at an amazing speed, which is increasing, and for n-o-t-h-i-n-g with the result that WW is pack more then even with material things of all sorts, call it an orgie of objects that people just don't need but "buy". People here are consumers before being people. They will do anything to save a cent, on the short term, even if it means let do anything to other people. So The Good Robin Hood you have in mind, when you think of the Western World is not exact.
What is exact is that the change will come from people who will DO it anywhere in the world. Heroes without rewards of any sorts.
I came in late to the radio report [sleep getting in the way], the same as I'm coming in late to this discussion. However, on NPR this morning, there was an African leader of some sort [didn't get his title ~ ambassador/politician/whatever?] who was talking about the humiliation of being from what's considered a perpetually begging Africa ~ when they have many of the richest resources in the world, and that they've had billions of dollars, but that the dollars have been squandered by their various leaders, and its been presumed that they're poor when they're actually not....and that now some debt-forgiveness plan is going into effect, which will help immensely, as 40% of their various nation's government's income goes into debt repayment. That's the jist of what I heard, and I'll look on the NPR site to see if I can find the exact wording of all this. When you're just waking up, it's easy to be one off on something, which could skew the whole of it. However, I believe I got all the basics correct.
~ Lizzy
~ Lizzy
I wonder what happened to all the compassion that was so evident only a few months ago when the tsunami struck South East Asia. Most of us in the affluent nations rallied around to assist with aid to rebuild what had been destroyed. This will be a very lengthy task and many aid charities and other agencies are working alongside the local people. Individual holidaymakers are also going out and working rather than lazing on the beaches or around hotel pools.
Africa is a huge continent made up of many separate countries. Not all of them have corrupt governments, and some are working hard to improve education, health, agriculture etc for their people. The positive work and improvements taking place of course do not make headline news as do the brutal regimes of those like Robert Mugabe, who is indeed condemned by most Western governments.
It is very true that aid going to some countries is being diverted by corrupt officials to make themselves rich. However, a lot of money from charities is monitored by those charities and used to improve living conditions and on schemes like digging wells, providing health care and education, and training local people who then train others, so enabling the communiites to be self sufficient. Someone I know is a youthful 60 year old, recently retired and doing VSO (Voluntary Service Overseas) in Uganda on such a project.
I know certain celebrities are quite irritating and some have jumped on the bandwagon, but I admire Bob Geldoff for his sincerity and the time and effort he has put into using his status to put pressure on politicians and the rest of us to try to change things for the better. We can afford it and have the power to make a difference if we have the determination to do so. The world is shrinking in that our fellow human beings are only hours away from us. Would we ignore our next door neighbour who was in desparate need?, or ignore the need of the nearby town that suffered a flood or an earthquake? If we give up striving for the ideals we had when we were young and become so cynical and selfish, only concerned with our own personal world, what sort of legacy are we leaving for our children and for future generations to inherit?
Margaret
Africa is a huge continent made up of many separate countries. Not all of them have corrupt governments, and some are working hard to improve education, health, agriculture etc for their people. The positive work and improvements taking place of course do not make headline news as do the brutal regimes of those like Robert Mugabe, who is indeed condemned by most Western governments.
It is very true that aid going to some countries is being diverted by corrupt officials to make themselves rich. However, a lot of money from charities is monitored by those charities and used to improve living conditions and on schemes like digging wells, providing health care and education, and training local people who then train others, so enabling the communiites to be self sufficient. Someone I know is a youthful 60 year old, recently retired and doing VSO (Voluntary Service Overseas) in Uganda on such a project.
I know certain celebrities are quite irritating and some have jumped on the bandwagon, but I admire Bob Geldoff for his sincerity and the time and effort he has put into using his status to put pressure on politicians and the rest of us to try to change things for the better. We can afford it and have the power to make a difference if we have the determination to do so. The world is shrinking in that our fellow human beings are only hours away from us. Would we ignore our next door neighbour who was in desparate need?, or ignore the need of the nearby town that suffered a flood or an earthquake? If we give up striving for the ideals we had when we were young and become so cynical and selfish, only concerned with our own personal world, what sort of legacy are we leaving for our children and for future generations to inherit?
Margaret
Hi Margaret ~
I'm just hoping you know my response was not with the intent of undermining Bob Geldof's efforts. Any effort is better than none ~ regardless [not even that this is just 'any effort,' either]. I just happened to hear something this AM that seemed to relate. I agree with all you've said regarding not abandoning our ideals. Very eloquent, as well.
~ Elizabeth
OK, I found it ~ well, the synopsis of it. The transcript requires $4.95, which I won't be purchasing. Your point remains well taken, Margaret, regardless of the assessments of economists. At least it seems that in my early-morning, awakening state, I got the basics right.
I'm just hoping you know my response was not with the intent of undermining Bob Geldof's efforts. Any effort is better than none ~ regardless [not even that this is just 'any effort,' either]. I just happened to hear something this AM that seemed to relate. I agree with all you've said regarding not abandoning our ideals. Very eloquent, as well.
~ Elizabeth
OK, I found it ~ well, the synopsis of it. The transcript requires $4.95, which I won't be purchasing. Your point remains well taken, Margaret, regardless of the assessments of economists. At least it seems that in my early-morning, awakening state, I got the basics right.
"Leaders of wealthy nations will discuss debt relief and aid to Africa at the G8 summit. But George Ayittey, a professor of economics at American University, says that Africa's salvation doesn't lie in asking for more aid. He says that African leaders have mismanaged their resources and should be held accountable for corruption."
Thanks Elizabeth,
My remarks were not in response to your post, but to a series of opinions from several people. It's so easy for us to get disheartened when we see waste and corruption, but there have always been, and always will be, those who take advantage of the weak and poor to feather their own nest or rule by fear and brutality. If we give up on trying to help we are allowing such things to continue without check.
My remarks were not in response to your post, but to a series of opinions from several people. It's so easy for us to get disheartened when we see waste and corruption, but there have always been, and always will be, those who take advantage of the weak and poor to feather their own nest or rule by fear and brutality. If we give up on trying to help we are allowing such things to continue without check.
The tsunami was a natural disaster unforeseen and catastrophic. The problems with Africa are mostly man made and on-going.
Quote Margaret: - If we give up striving for the ideals we had when we were young and become so cynical and selfish, only concerned with our own personal world, what sort of legacy are we leaving for our children and for future generations to inherit?
Margaret I am cynical but I am certainly not selfish and only concerned with my own personal world. The legacy we are leaving our children at the moment is what ever the problem is throw money at it and walk away. You have done your bit.
If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. What part of the solution are we.
What ever happened to helping people to help themselves. What happened to enabling people. When did money become the great cow that we all worship. These people need skills as well as food. All we are providing is food. They need long term help in honing their own skills to enable them to be self sufficent what they are getting is food parcels and this time next year they will still be needing food parcels.
Quote Margaret: - If we give up striving for the ideals we had when we were young and become so cynical and selfish, only concerned with our own personal world, what sort of legacy are we leaving for our children and for future generations to inherit?
Margaret I am cynical but I am certainly not selfish and only concerned with my own personal world. The legacy we are leaving our children at the moment is what ever the problem is throw money at it and walk away. You have done your bit.
If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. What part of the solution are we.
What ever happened to helping people to help themselves. What happened to enabling people. When did money become the great cow that we all worship. These people need skills as well as food. All we are providing is food. They need long term help in honing their own skills to enable them to be self sufficent what they are getting is food parcels and this time next year they will still be needing food parcels.
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
I have to second that, too.Paula wrote:The tsunami was a natural disaster unforeseen and catastrophic. The problems with Africa are mostly man made and on-going.
Help people to help themselves, certainly but this charm operation "poverty zero" does not have this goal. Besides, people must be ready to "help themselves", which is not evident, and that cannot be forced, otherwise it is not help anymore but control. (Life is not boring 'cause it is complicated. Nothing's perfect. I prefer to deal with the last than to be bored).
I just heard an African from Senagal (at the radio) said that Africa is rich, but African are poor.
They are because the natural resources are "stolen" - so to speak - by big companies and the goods made with it are sell to them at the high price after.
So what help is that? If it is to help this statu quo, well... Stop the music, Sir, Madam, OK? there is like a bad noise, in the back ground.