Lizzytysh you really have to take the time to read "Various Position". I would call some of that sordid. Read chapter ten.
I have more sympathy for him than the women though, because it didn't seem like he ever found happiness with a woman.
No Middleman
Dear Linda,
I looked back and saw where what I said was misleading. It's not lack of time [exactly] ~ though that would enter in, as well....the lack of opportunity comes as a result of other things precluding my obtaining a copy of the book at the moment. Once I obtain it, I may then get the opportunity to read it. I left out a step in my original statement, which made it appear that it's just a matter of having the time to read it.
Chapter 10 must be pretty dicey. Looking up the literal definition of sordid, I'm finding that it's just about the way I was thinking it to be:
(1) Wretchedly filthy; (2) morally ignoble or base; (3) meanly selfish [not the definition I think of when I hear it, but then it is #3] in one dictionary. In another: (1a) Dirty, filthy; (1b) wretched, squalid; (2) marked by baseness or grossness: vile <~ motives>; (3) meanly avaricious: covetous [again, not the definition I think of, but then it is also #3]. It'll be interesting to me to see how it measures up according to these. Are these the definitions you also want to go with?
I don't know how long/large the book is. Maybe I can arrange with someone to get a xerox copy of it, since I'm not interested in resale. All I'm interested in, is having a copy of his words in front of me. As soon as I manage to get it read, I'll give you my take on it. Shall I start with Chapter 10, or does the book have a progression that's relevant to my eventual arrival there?
~Lizzytysh
I looked back and saw where what I said was misleading. It's not lack of time [exactly] ~ though that would enter in, as well....the lack of opportunity comes as a result of other things precluding my obtaining a copy of the book at the moment. Once I obtain it, I may then get the opportunity to read it. I left out a step in my original statement, which made it appear that it's just a matter of having the time to read it.
Chapter 10 must be pretty dicey. Looking up the literal definition of sordid, I'm finding that it's just about the way I was thinking it to be:
(1) Wretchedly filthy; (2) morally ignoble or base; (3) meanly selfish [not the definition I think of when I hear it, but then it is #3] in one dictionary. In another: (1a) Dirty, filthy; (1b) wretched, squalid; (2) marked by baseness or grossness: vile <~ motives>; (3) meanly avaricious: covetous [again, not the definition I think of, but then it is also #3]. It'll be interesting to me to see how it measures up according to these. Are these the definitions you also want to go with?
I don't know how long/large the book is. Maybe I can arrange with someone to get a xerox copy of it, since I'm not interested in resale. All I'm interested in, is having a copy of his words in front of me. As soon as I manage to get it read, I'll give you my take on it. Shall I start with Chapter 10, or does the book have a progression that's relevant to my eventual arrival there?
~Lizzytysh
Lizzytysh,
I'd like to comment that perhaps you are too close and too protective of someone you have never exchanged a word with, someone who is essentially a stranger to you. It may be better to remain more detached and just enjoy the man's music.
On a lighter note, your recent posts reminded me of the way I felt about Meg Ryan when I was 18.
I'd like to comment that perhaps you are too close and too protective of someone you have never exchanged a word with, someone who is essentially a stranger to you. It may be better to remain more detached and just enjoy the man's music.
On a lighter note, your recent posts reminded me of the way I felt about Meg Ryan when I was 18.
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Sore Loser
- Posts: 42
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SL,
Maybe by Spring, I'll have the book
. Will let you know then my thoughts on it. I agree that Leonard has elevated confessionals to an art form. However, unless you're again referring to Various Positions, I'm glad he didn't wait until Judgement Day.
Kush,
Actually, you may be right, you may be wrong. My sense is that some people are too close and condemning of someone they've never exchanged a word with.....their judgements akin to those generally reserved for the louse brother-in-law. In fact, I have exchanged words with him in Chicago [1976], when I met him after a performance. Not enough to make me an authority , of course; however, I maintained my decorum then, and don't see my perspectives, now, as being those of a swoon-sick teenager, either 
~ simply giving the man a break.
Of course, I'll continue to enjoy him, and my chosen aspects of the world he offers, at whatever level and proximity pleases me. You've already opted for enjoying him and his music less. I only wish there were more who were able to reach that particular idealistic and loving part of me....that part that believes that life really is all about love.
~Lizzytysh
Maybe by Spring, I'll have the book
. Will let you know then my thoughts on it. I agree that Leonard has elevated confessionals to an art form. However, unless you're again referring to Various Positions, I'm glad he didn't wait until Judgement Day.Kush,
Actually, you may be right, you may be wrong. My sense is that some people are too close and condemning of someone they've never exchanged a word with.....their judgements akin to those generally reserved for the louse brother-in-law. In fact, I have exchanged words with him in Chicago [1976], when I met him after a performance. Not enough to make me an authority
, of course; however, I maintained my decorum then, and don't see my perspectives, now, as being those of a swoon-sick teenager, either ~ simply giving the man a break.Of course, I'll continue to enjoy him, and my chosen aspects of the world he offers, at whatever level and proximity pleases me. You've already opted for enjoying him and his music less. I only wish there were more who were able to reach that particular idealistic and loving part of me....that part that believes that life really is all about love.
~Lizzytysh
So do I, Linda.......if the "sordid," etc. comments didn't have the aura of being fast-forwarded to today, to represent the "real" Leonard Cohen and undermine the integrity of his lifestyle, ethics, and whatever else ~ that would be one thing. However, I dare say anyone who freezes someone in time and then calls that the "real" them is not doing them a favour or giving them a break, either. With time, commitment, and focus comes growth. Roshi's lessons included the ethical treatment of women.
Excerpt from Shambhala Sun; September 1998; "Leonard Cohen Several Lifetimes Already":
" 'What is this thing called love?' the man says, speaking in the old-fashioned tones of his northern Japanese dialect, through a translator, chuckling but unhesitating. 'A child can befriend a dog and lick its rear end. Is that love? Is love just shaking hands? Dogs and cats and insects mate; is that love?'
" 'You've been hypnotized,' he goes on. 'You've got to take your mind to the laundry. Get it clean.' And, he concludes, 'When a man is with a woman, he has to occupy her fully. "
This, of course, is not presumed to be the whole of his teachings regarding women, that Leonard no doubt absorbed while in the monastery.
Leonard's own honesty and truthfulness are to be much admired. Note his interview with Stina in Paris, where she also tries to nail him with his past. I'll continue to admire his honesty and truthfulness, as well.
~Lizzytysh
Excerpt from Shambhala Sun; September 1998; "Leonard Cohen Several Lifetimes Already":
" 'What is this thing called love?' the man says, speaking in the old-fashioned tones of his northern Japanese dialect, through a translator, chuckling but unhesitating. 'A child can befriend a dog and lick its rear end. Is that love? Is love just shaking hands? Dogs and cats and insects mate; is that love?'
" 'You've been hypnotized,' he goes on. 'You've got to take your mind to the laundry. Get it clean.' And, he concludes, 'When a man is with a woman, he has to occupy her fully. "
This, of course, is not presumed to be the whole of his teachings regarding women, that Leonard no doubt absorbed while in the monastery.
Leonard's own honesty and truthfulness are to be much admired. Note his interview with Stina in Paris, where she also tries to nail him with his past. I'll continue to admire his honesty and truthfulness, as well.
~Lizzytysh
>>>>>My sense is that some people are too close and condemning of someone they've never exchanged a word with.
It is not a question of just condemning.....I have a particular distaste for passing judgment on people myself. BUT, as an important artiste and a self-confessional one, there are a some of us who are interested in knowing the complete person, warts and all. A multi-dimensional person is far more interesting than a one-dimensional person. I have never read Various Positions but a biography is more interesting when it tells the whole story, rather than PROMOTE a particular facet of a person. Similarly, a discussion of LC's life is more interesting if it tells the whole story (or as much as possible) without trying to PROMOTE a particular facet. I don't condemn his lifestyle...but it is interesting to know the less palatable aspects of the man. There are a handful of people who have influenced me far more than LC (non-musical) and I could tell you more about their disagreeable qualities than I could of LC. Your vehement defence of LC in this specific case almost prevents the dissemination of some aspects of LC's character makeup...sorry. I have no interest in villifying or defending LC....but I do have a more than passing interest in knowing him a little more completely.
p.s. This may contradict my earlier posting slightly, but I guess I have changed my mind slightly during the course of this discussion. That's the way it goes......
It is not a question of just condemning.....I have a particular distaste for passing judgment on people myself. BUT, as an important artiste and a self-confessional one, there are a some of us who are interested in knowing the complete person, warts and all. A multi-dimensional person is far more interesting than a one-dimensional person. I have never read Various Positions but a biography is more interesting when it tells the whole story, rather than PROMOTE a particular facet of a person. Similarly, a discussion of LC's life is more interesting if it tells the whole story (or as much as possible) without trying to PROMOTE a particular facet. I don't condemn his lifestyle...but it is interesting to know the less palatable aspects of the man. There are a handful of people who have influenced me far more than LC (non-musical) and I could tell you more about their disagreeable qualities than I could of LC. Your vehement defence of LC in this specific case almost prevents the dissemination of some aspects of LC's character makeup...sorry. I have no interest in villifying or defending LC....but I do have a more than passing interest in knowing him a little more completely.
p.s. This may contradict my earlier posting slightly, but I guess I have changed my mind slightly during the course of this discussion. That's the way it goes......
Guess what, Kush.....we're in agreement. I also am interested in knowing all that Leonard is willing to divulge.....the good, the bad, and the ugly. However, will I seize upon it like a starving vulture, a pit-bull gone mad, so I can make comments regarding Leonard's most recent spiritual explorations into himself, to the effect of [with significant words highlighted]:
"I am not surprised that Leonard Cohen would be strongly attracted to a religion characterized by a severe form of asceticism and whose ultimate goal is the extinction of all desire and union with an Impersonal Absolute. Many hedonists find this very attractive. It is a sort of spiritual bulimea. Bingeing and then purging."
Now, if that's not an unfair linking of Leonard's past, with invalidation of what he's doing today, please advise.
Am I making him "something he is not" by focusing on the positive at this point in his life? No, I'm focusing on the positive....or would one rather be forever reminded, as in dysfunctional relationships, of how one used to be.
"Leonard Cohen has elevated the self-confessional to an art form. In fact, he has revealed things about himself most people think would be better left to Judgement Day. So, you cannot blame poor 'ole unsophisticated me for the occasional raised eye-brow." More of a passive-aggressive one here....and why wait till Judgement Day anyway, when we have self-appointed Judges abounding here?
"I just think this starry-eyed view of the "Artist as Lover" to be extremely naive. What has a certain titilating fascination in the imagination or on paper does not have that same effect in real life." This presumes that one must know what the effect is in these referred-to cases, whatever they might be. Why is seeing Leonard, through the music and songs he's created, as "Artist as Lover" so problematical? Why does the discussion need to immediately be lasered into negative discussion of his private life and personal history? He has been the first to admit that his treatment of women has been lacking. Some seem to think that this information is "news."
"The phase 'used his charm like a switchblade' has an interesting ring to it." The implications of this are focused on the damage a switchblade can do. I'm not saying that Ira did not choose his metaphor well to include this shading; however, the most infamous aspect of a switchblade is its speed. Hence, the switches were at a lightning rate. Again, with manic-depressives, this is still very typical. The "used" part certainly suggests manipulation.....and manipulation can be very hurtful to the other person. This may be part of what Ira meant, or all of it. I don't know. Seeing it in context will be helpful.
However, the final comments:
"One caveat about the Nadel biography, the only voice you hear is Leonard Cohen's. The women in his life are completely silent in this work.
So, I have to wonder about the fabled good vibes from these discarded women." I can only wonder why Ira [doing such an "expose" of the "true" Leonard] wouldn't have made certain to quote all these "discarded" women to once-and-for-all make Leonard the liar that he must be, spreading such fables.
I am, indeed, interested in hearing the details of his life.....however, according to SL, with whom you've been agreeing, shouldn't these "warts" be left till "Judgement" Day? I am not interested in reading these details so I can judge. I am interested in reading them and, while I'm suspending judgement, I can get a better sense of the person who writes these incredible songs, who has come so far for beauty, who has lived a number of experiences in the interest of self-betterment and understanding ~ so I can appreciate who he is today, where he has come from, and where he has been to get here. When I do this with another person's history, I learn more about myself. It leads to a deeper understanding of many things, he for himself and others, me for myself and others.
If you take what I've said on Leonard's behalf, as being carte blanche denial of all the negative and a rose-coloured glasses view of him, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. It's not the information itself, it's how you use it that matters.
~Lizzytysh
"I am not surprised that Leonard Cohen would be strongly attracted to a religion characterized by a severe form of asceticism and whose ultimate goal is the extinction of all desire and union with an Impersonal Absolute. Many hedonists find this very attractive. It is a sort of spiritual bulimea. Bingeing and then purging."
Now, if that's not an unfair linking of Leonard's past, with invalidation of what he's doing today, please advise.
Am I making him "something he is not" by focusing on the positive at this point in his life? No, I'm focusing on the positive....or would one rather be forever reminded, as in dysfunctional relationships, of how one used to be.
"Leonard Cohen has elevated the self-confessional to an art form. In fact, he has revealed things about himself most people think would be better left to Judgement Day. So, you cannot blame poor 'ole unsophisticated me for the occasional raised eye-brow." More of a passive-aggressive one here....and why wait till Judgement Day anyway, when we have self-appointed Judges abounding here?
"I just think this starry-eyed view of the "Artist as Lover" to be extremely naive. What has a certain titilating fascination in the imagination or on paper does not have that same effect in real life." This presumes that one must know what the effect is in these referred-to cases, whatever they might be. Why is seeing Leonard, through the music and songs he's created, as "Artist as Lover" so problematical? Why does the discussion need to immediately be lasered into negative discussion of his private life and personal history? He has been the first to admit that his treatment of women has been lacking. Some seem to think that this information is "news."
"The phase 'used his charm like a switchblade' has an interesting ring to it." The implications of this are focused on the damage a switchblade can do. I'm not saying that Ira did not choose his metaphor well to include this shading; however, the most infamous aspect of a switchblade is its speed. Hence, the switches were at a lightning rate. Again, with manic-depressives, this is still very typical. The "used" part certainly suggests manipulation.....and manipulation can be very hurtful to the other person. This may be part of what Ira meant, or all of it. I don't know. Seeing it in context will be helpful.
However, the final comments:
"One caveat about the Nadel biography, the only voice you hear is Leonard Cohen's. The women in his life are completely silent in this work.
So, I have to wonder about the fabled good vibes from these discarded women." I can only wonder why Ira [doing such an "expose" of the "true" Leonard] wouldn't have made certain to quote all these "discarded" women to once-and-for-all make Leonard the liar that he must be, spreading such fables.
I am, indeed, interested in hearing the details of his life.....however, according to SL, with whom you've been agreeing, shouldn't these "warts" be left till "Judgement" Day? I am not interested in reading these details so I can judge. I am interested in reading them and, while I'm suspending judgement, I can get a better sense of the person who writes these incredible songs, who has come so far for beauty, who has lived a number of experiences in the interest of self-betterment and understanding ~ so I can appreciate who he is today, where he has come from, and where he has been to get here. When I do this with another person's history, I learn more about myself. It leads to a deeper understanding of many things, he for himself and others, me for myself and others.
If you take what I've said on Leonard's behalf, as being carte blanche denial of all the negative and a rose-coloured glasses view of him, you couldn't possibly be more wrong. It's not the information itself, it's how you use it that matters.
~Lizzytysh
Well what can I say......what seemed to you like "seized upon like a starving vulture, a pit-bull gone bad" was actually the more enlightening posts for me - especially the phrases quoted. I am usually able to pick up information content and filter out irrelevancies without having it interpreted for me. The "switchblade" reference was a masterpiece I thought and aligned well with some idea that I had of LC's personality (picked up from disparate sources and reading between lines). In one interview LC admitted that he has been accused of "getting pleasure out of causing pain to other people" and that criticism stuck to him. I admire his candidness....I probably wouldnt have been able to admit something like that, I don't know.
Anyway, I shall speak no more on this....
Cheers
Anyway, I shall speak no more on this....
Cheers
Hi Kush,
I'll speak more to it, enough to say that my references to those posts did not have to do with the informational aspects, but rather how that was being used [already made apparent in my previous post through the highlighted words, which you've referred to as my interpreting for you].
It appears the switchblade reference may be a masterpiece in your eyes, in that you feel it validates/substantiates some preconceived notion you already had of Leonard's personality, for whatever reasons.
Sharing what people have said about you in no way suggests that it's something you agree with, or even that it's true. His saying that it hit him hard does suggest, however, that this is something he does not want to do, or to be perceived as doing. In terms of his time on Mount Baldy, it could also be an issue that he may have addressed, i.e. how to eliminate any behaviours that might give someone that impression of him. All of that still remains a long distance from that comment representing the way he is. Saying that some people have considered you a sadist does not make you a sadist. Pretty strong accusation. Anyone can think anything of anyone....particularly people in the public eye or having celebrity status. Fortunately, what you are is not contingent upon what others think you are.
~Lizzytysh
I'll speak more to it, enough to say that my references to those posts did not have to do with the informational aspects, but rather how that was being used [already made apparent in my previous post through the highlighted words, which you've referred to as my interpreting for you].
It appears the switchblade reference may be a masterpiece in your eyes, in that you feel it validates/substantiates some preconceived notion you already had of Leonard's personality, for whatever reasons.
Sharing what people have said about you in no way suggests that it's something you agree with, or even that it's true. His saying that it hit him hard does suggest, however, that this is something he does not want to do, or to be perceived as doing. In terms of his time on Mount Baldy, it could also be an issue that he may have addressed, i.e. how to eliminate any behaviours that might give someone that impression of him. All of that still remains a long distance from that comment representing the way he is. Saying that some people have considered you a sadist does not make you a sadist. Pretty strong accusation. Anyone can think anything of anyone....particularly people in the public eye or having celebrity status. Fortunately, what you are is not contingent upon what others think you are.
~Lizzytysh
Last edited by lizzytysh on Fri Nov 01, 2002 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
You have a way with words Lizzytysh!
If I am passing any judgement here it would probably be on Lizzytysh's defense of LC. But in turn I also admire the stand she takes in his defense. If the book "Various Position" is based on fact, and it is out here for me to read then I can form no other opinion (call it judging) of LC in his younger day than the one I have now. He was not a nice boy
Is being Judgmental all bad? If you judge someone by feeling superior yourself that is very wrong, I don't think we are doing that here. But really Kush has the right idea, let it end. Lizzytysh you can have the last word provided I agree. But I don't think I will agree.
If I am passing any judgement here it would probably be on Lizzytysh's defense of LC. But in turn I also admire the stand she takes in his defense. If the book "Various Position" is based on fact, and it is out here for me to read then I can form no other opinion (call it judging) of LC in his younger day than the one I have now. He was not a nice boy
Is being Judgmental all bad? If you judge someone by feeling superior yourself that is very wrong, I don't think we are doing that here. But really Kush has the right idea, let it end. Lizzytysh you can have the last word provided I agree. But I don't think I will agree.Linda
Hi Linda,
I'm not looking for the last word here. What I'm looking for is some semblance of non-judgementalism.
Just as you [Kush] don't need someone to interpet for you: "I am usually able to pick up information content and filter out irrelevancies without having it interpreted for me;" I [Lizzytysh] don't need someone to tell me: "It may be better to remain more detached and just enjoy the man's music.
On a lighter note, your recent posts reminded me of the way I felt about Meg Ryan when I was 18." So, I understand what you mean.
Why it is you [Linda] would feel inclined to pass judgement on my defense of Leonard is a bit beyond me
.
I have not read Various Positions; however, I'm glad to hear you putting your views in the appropriate perspective, at least, "I can form no other opinion (call it judging) of LC in his younger day than the one I have now."
Oftimes, the primary purpose of judging can be to place oneself in a morally-, ethically-, culturally-, monetarily-, etc. superior position, so as to feel better about oneself. We all [for the most part] judge to a degree, as a means of determining what we will and won't have in our life. However, this thread took its turn based on Janem's referring to Leonard as "Artist as Lover." Suddenly, we have scalpels in hand to delve into his personal life. If I go to a performance and watch a thespian portray or come across strongly as a particular kind of person, per the lines they speak, the songs they sing, whatever, I feel pretty free to discuss them as an "Artist as ______," without a shred of knowledge of their personal life.
Given Leonard's reputation, it is a bit of a phenomenon that women the world over remain enchanted by him. This seems to get under the skin of some people. I venture to say there may even be a fair amount of male jealousy [aka ego conflict] out there with regard to this fact. Something which, no doubt, totally baffles Leonard himself. Leonard also seems to be easy prey to criticism by others. He's too this or that; not enough this or that. I know it's terribly boring for some to read positive perspectives, and the writer is presumed to be insufferably naieve and/or deluded. For whatever reason, my defense of Leonard may come across as that, or more that of a sister defending her younger brother [even though I happen to be younger], against a bully or perhaps just against someone who's not a bully....but with that same familial tenaciousness. If that's the case, that's okay too [at least with me].....far worse things that I could do with my loyalty. For anyone who wants to judge that, go ahead [you will anyway
].
~Lizzytysh
I'm not looking for the last word here. What I'm looking for is some semblance of non-judgementalism.
Just as you [Kush] don't need someone to interpet for you: "I am usually able to pick up information content and filter out irrelevancies without having it interpreted for me;" I [Lizzytysh] don't need someone to tell me: "It may be better to remain more detached and just enjoy the man's music.
On a lighter note, your recent posts reminded me of the way I felt about Meg Ryan when I was 18." So, I understand what you mean.
Why it is you [Linda] would feel inclined to pass judgement on my defense of Leonard is a bit beyond me
.I have not read Various Positions; however, I'm glad to hear you putting your views in the appropriate perspective, at least, "I can form no other opinion (call it judging) of LC in his younger day than the one I have now."
Oftimes, the primary purpose of judging can be to place oneself in a morally-, ethically-, culturally-, monetarily-, etc. superior position, so as to feel better about oneself. We all [for the most part] judge to a degree, as a means of determining what we will and won't have in our life. However, this thread took its turn based on Janem's referring to Leonard as "Artist as Lover." Suddenly, we have scalpels in hand to delve into his personal life. If I go to a performance and watch a thespian portray or come across strongly as a particular kind of person, per the lines they speak, the songs they sing, whatever, I feel pretty free to discuss them as an "Artist as ______," without a shred of knowledge of their personal life.
Given Leonard's reputation, it is a bit of a phenomenon that women the world over remain enchanted by him. This seems to get under the skin of some people. I venture to say there may even be a fair amount of male jealousy [aka ego conflict] out there with regard to this fact. Something which, no doubt, totally baffles Leonard himself. Leonard also seems to be easy prey to criticism by others. He's too this or that; not enough this or that. I know it's terribly boring for some to read positive perspectives, and the writer is presumed to be insufferably naieve and/or deluded. For whatever reason, my defense of Leonard may come across as that, or more that of a sister defending her younger brother [even though I happen to be younger], against a bully or perhaps just against someone who's not a bully....but with that same familial tenaciousness. If that's the case, that's okay too [at least with me].....far worse things that I could do with my loyalty. For anyone who wants to judge that, go ahead [you will anyway
]. ~Lizzytysh
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