Dear Sore Loser,
Due to other, far more pressing issues, I have not had the opportunity to read Various Positions. I can't speak to something I've not read. However, I'm curious as to whether that synopsis of Leonard's love life includes Rebecca, with whom he reportedly parted due to his not wanting to reinstitute the responsibility of raising [more] children in his life. On her part, that suggests her wanting an ever-deepening relationship with him....after an already long time with him. I've not heard of infidelity being an issue between them. Infidelity [not to try to justify any infidelity] also tends to prevail in the much shorter-term relationships I referenced.
Also, why are all these women so anxious to forgive Leonard to the extent of remaining friends with him throughout his life? Is that to suggest his celebrity somehow wipes the slate clean?
~Lizzytysh
No Middleman
Dear Sore Loser,Sore Loser wrote:It seems to me his "long-term" relationships with these beautfiul women weren't anything to write home about. Just from a cursory reading of "Various Positions" you get the clear idea that rampant infidelity, betrayal, and ultimate abandonment was his M.O.
O.K. sometimes good songs or poems come out of this kind of pain. But I just bet the pain wasn't all his.
I have read Nadel's bio too, avidly. And this is not the overall impression I get of Leonard from it. With what a severe eye you have read and judged.
And who that has loved will condemn him so confidently and so swiftly for those flaws you could only find in Leonard? (or in his lover persona and love history as far as we know it in the bio.) Let him throw the first stone at a terribly flawed lover. But a LOVER nonetheless, and that is a noble calling and a rare one in this world. And does he ever claim to be perfect, or a perfect lover, or not to have caused tremendous pain? I must have missed that part. Have you read his first novel The Favorite Game? In which Breavman leaves her coldly when he is young and brash but is to be struck down with the full force of the pain he has caused one day. -Janem
It takes a lifetime to really get to know someone, and even then the walk through life changes us. I could take the LC thing a step further, when we say we love LC, it it not LC the actual person we love, but his image, in my opinion anyway.
I would have to agree with Sore Loser, having read that book and just from bits and pieces I have read here and there, beautiful women were there for the taking and the temptation over took him. His songs even admit to that, however that could be the image he wanted to portray. Maybe just maybe down deep inside he wasn't that way at all.
Lizzytysh, women, men also, forgive and go on loving and remain friends for a lot worse things than that.
I would have to agree with Sore Loser, having read that book and just from bits and pieces I have read here and there, beautiful women were there for the taking and the temptation over took him. His songs even admit to that, however that could be the image he wanted to portray. Maybe just maybe down deep inside he wasn't that way at all.
Lizzytysh, women, men also, forgive and go on loving and remain friends for a lot worse things than that.
Linda
that "Electro-Magnetic Mesmerizing Force Field
Leonard said about Roshi that he was the only human being he knew that eyes did not judge. Reading this board, I'm happy for him that he met Roshi.
I like to read and share comments and analysis with other fans on what Leonard Cohen, the artist, have done for us and how we feel about it.
But I'm amaze that some people may only think they could have a hint of who the man is, or allow themselves to judge his acts, as I think it is impossible to know our own selves entirely in a whole lifetime.
I like to read and share comments and analysis with other fans on what Leonard Cohen, the artist, have done for us and how we feel about it.
But I'm amaze that some people may only think they could have a hint of who the man is, or allow themselves to judge his acts, as I think it is impossible to know our own selves entirely in a whole lifetime.
You are right Gaia.
In my defence, if you follow the conversation that led to my initial comment re' LC and his beautiful women, it was an argument against Raffzahn's position (untenable, IMO) rather than a judgment on LC's lifestyle.
But in any case, I agree with what you say and will be more careful in my wording. It is easy to be misconstrued and threads can take their own twists and turns.
In my defence, if you follow the conversation that led to my initial comment re' LC and his beautiful women, it was an argument against Raffzahn's position (untenable, IMO) rather than a judgment on LC's lifestyle.
But in any case, I agree with what you say and will be more careful in my wording. It is easy to be misconstrued and threads can take their own twists and turns.
Last edited by Kush on Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Hi Linda,
I very much agree regarding forgiveness. However, there is a remarkable consistency with women wishing to remain friends with him. All but one of his former lovers remain such. Were Leonard such a rogue, as he is being portrayed here [per someone's reading of a book on him], I dare say the numbers would not be so much in his favour, nor the lengths of his individual relationships with those same women. He himself declares that he's good at doing the dishes, taking out the garbage, and holding up the wall. However, he appears to be conflicted in terms of being a "successful," long-term/permanent lover. He makes no such claims. However, some of the things he speaks to in his songs and his manner are what many women, worldwide, long for in a man. True that personality and character often bear no resemblance. Yet, it remains that it appears to me he possesses both. I have no interest in making Leonard appear perfect. However, I have great interest in Leonard being defendable. Both Gaia and Janem are saying things I feel along that line.
If there is one thing that I have never seen Leonard's words to be, it is "cheap." Although I know what you mean when you say that, I feel it greatly discredits him, to link that phrase with him. I've seen great indications of tremendous ~ though painful ~ honesty on his part. Pain shared.
~ Lizzytysh
I very much agree regarding forgiveness. However, there is a remarkable consistency with women wishing to remain friends with him. All but one of his former lovers remain such. Were Leonard such a rogue, as he is being portrayed here [per someone's reading of a book on him], I dare say the numbers would not be so much in his favour, nor the lengths of his individual relationships with those same women. He himself declares that he's good at doing the dishes, taking out the garbage, and holding up the wall. However, he appears to be conflicted in terms of being a "successful," long-term/permanent lover. He makes no such claims. However, some of the things he speaks to in his songs and his manner are what many women, worldwide, long for in a man. True that personality and character often bear no resemblance. Yet, it remains that it appears to me he possesses both. I have no interest in making Leonard appear perfect. However, I have great interest in Leonard being defendable. Both Gaia and Janem are saying things I feel along that line.
If there is one thing that I have never seen Leonard's words to be, it is "cheap." Although I know what you mean when you say that, I feel it greatly discredits him, to link that phrase with him. I've seen great indications of tremendous ~ though painful ~ honesty on his part. Pain shared.
~ Lizzytysh
I think "Hallelujah" is a really good portrayal of a breakdown in a relationship it has the passion of first love and the rejection when love disappears.
You can almost taste the rejection in that song. I would love to know the real story behind it.
Linda - I don't know if you have children but believe me words are not cheap and I have the phone bills to prove it
You can almost taste the rejection in that song. I would love to know the real story behind it.
Linda - I don't know if you have children but believe me words are not cheap and I have the phone bills to prove it
Here we go again! I am not saying LC's writing of his poetry or songs as being cheap. I do not feel I am discrediting LC by making that statement. Read the statement again Lizzytysh.
Paula, I can relate to that!
The best version of "Hallelujah" I have heard so far is on "The Essential" album. I had never heard that one before. Also "Night Comes On".
Beautiful.
Paula, I can relate to that!The best version of "Hallelujah" I have heard so far is on "The Essential" album. I had never heard that one before. Also "Night Comes On".
Beautiful.
Linda
Linda,
I wasn't referring to LC's writing of his poetry or songs, either. Neither of us will ever know the actual words he uses in his day-to-day life, but those were the ones I was referring to, and particularly the ones he might use during reconciliation. We can only guess whether his "words are cheap" during times such as those. My guess goes in his favour. It's based on the sincerity and concern he shows when he speaks of others things.
~Lizzytysh
I wasn't referring to LC's writing of his poetry or songs, either. Neither of us will ever know the actual words he uses in his day-to-day life, but those were the ones I was referring to, and particularly the ones he might use during reconciliation. We can only guess whether his "words are cheap" during times such as those. My guess goes in his favour. It's based on the sincerity and concern he shows when he speaks of others things.
~Lizzytysh
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Sore Loser
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:05 am
Dear Gaia, Janem, Lizzytysh,
I'm not judging anyone. I merely read a biography that recounts in part the somewhat sordid details of this man's life. And I might add that these details obviously could only come from the subject of Nadel's biography. I just think this starry-eyed view of the "Artist as Lover" to be extremely naive. What has a certain titilating fascination in the imagination or on paper does not have that same effect in real life.
"Cohen was always in need of a relationship but each relationship was conducted on his stringent terms. He required commitment but couldn't always offer it in return. He wanted intimacy, but he also wanted freedom. He was depressive and vulnerable and used his charm like a switchblade." Various Positions, I. Nadel, page 253.
The phase "used his charm like a switchblade" has an interesting ring to it.
As for his relationship with the non-judgemental Roshi, I am not surprised that Leonard Cohen would be strongly attracted to a religion characterized by a severe form of asceticism and whose ultimate goal is the extinction of all desire and union with an Impersonal Absolute. Many hedonists find this very attractive. It is a sort of spiritual bulimea. Bingeing and then purging.
I realize that mine is a minority view. But I think it is a valid one.
SL
P.S. One caveat about the Nadel biography, the only voice you hear is Leonard Cohen's. The women in his life are completely silent in this work.
So, I have to wonder about the fabled good vibes from these discarded women.
I'm not judging anyone. I merely read a biography that recounts in part the somewhat sordid details of this man's life. And I might add that these details obviously could only come from the subject of Nadel's biography. I just think this starry-eyed view of the "Artist as Lover" to be extremely naive. What has a certain titilating fascination in the imagination or on paper does not have that same effect in real life.
"Cohen was always in need of a relationship but each relationship was conducted on his stringent terms. He required commitment but couldn't always offer it in return. He wanted intimacy, but he also wanted freedom. He was depressive and vulnerable and used his charm like a switchblade." Various Positions, I. Nadel, page 253.
The phase "used his charm like a switchblade" has an interesting ring to it.
As for his relationship with the non-judgemental Roshi, I am not surprised that Leonard Cohen would be strongly attracted to a religion characterized by a severe form of asceticism and whose ultimate goal is the extinction of all desire and union with an Impersonal Absolute. Many hedonists find this very attractive. It is a sort of spiritual bulimea. Bingeing and then purging.
I realize that mine is a minority view. But I think it is a valid one.
SL
P.S. One caveat about the Nadel biography, the only voice you hear is Leonard Cohen's. The women in his life are completely silent in this work.
So, I have to wonder about the fabled good vibes from these discarded women.
Dear SL,
I'm not prepared to try to psycho-analyze Leonard. However, at least from what you've quoted, I'm curious how we got all the way to "sordid." There must be some details you've left out? I'm against infidelity, but dang that's a pretty strong word, "sordid".....even the switchblade reference isn't a literal blade, so unless he did some intentional, serious, tortuous, mind-twisting stuff...... I'm also curious how you and Janem could come away from the same material with such divergent impressions. We all know that we see and interpret life through the filters of our own lives and experiences. I don't know, but perhaps that's playing a part here.
It seems to me that those women stuck around volitionally, with an admittedly, restless spirit. Depressive and vulnerable.....I'll say! When was the last time any of us have seen a performer break down and cry serious tears in front of a throng of adoring fans.
I don't see "Artist as Lover" as starry-eyed or naieve, much less extremely, either one, as we've clearly been talking about the personae that's created by his music, "artist" and "as" being key words there. Part of the delight of some forms of art is the magic that it weaves. Ballet has never been presumed to be an accurate depiction of how people live their lives ~ tutus, high leaps, supporting one another in suspension, et al.
Many performers have tried [well, until it became more fashionable] to mask their shortcomings. Leonard was revealing his prior to that trend.
With regard to your comments on Leonard's choice of spiritual practice, the concept of detachment is a pretty common theme elsewhere, as well. Unconditional love of all beings is facilitated through it. Lack of attachment to the material world as well. It allows for that upward spiral of spirituality to occur. "Desire" is what gets and keeps a lot of us in trouble.
"He required commitment" [not an unreasonable "expectation"]; "but couldn't always offer it in return," suggesting that at least sometimes he could. It seems to me that Leonard has been forthright about most everything regarding his mental/emotional snakes and spiders. Again, I feel it's an unfair attempt to invalidate his integrity to suggest that he would make false claims regarding the continuity of his former lovers in his life. This particular comment was one I read in an article since his going to Mt. Baldy. If I were at home right now, I could cite it directly.
".....his charm.....like a switchblade" is effective writing, and an accurate depiction of manic-depressives. I don't feel that the women's absence in Ira's book is reflective of anything other than Ira's choice to not include them. It seems, from your interpretation at least, that he offered enough fuel for condemnation without them.
Shall we poll the males/females on the Forum regarding infidelity issues....then perhaps everyone can be grabbing for that first stone
. Double-standard[s] also hold some great possibilities for a poll.
Meanwhile, for myself, I invoke that right, which raffzahn already pointed out, to make use of that famed double-standard, when it comes to Leonard. One of the many freedoms of not being involved with Leonard Cohen. Were I in a relationship with him, it would be different, of course .....I only expect what I'm willing to give in terms of fidelity.
Blissfully and naievely yours,
Lizzytysh
I'm not prepared to try to psycho-analyze Leonard. However, at least from what you've quoted, I'm curious how we got all the way to "sordid." There must be some details you've left out? I'm against infidelity, but dang that's a pretty strong word, "sordid".....even the switchblade reference isn't a literal blade, so unless he did some intentional, serious, tortuous, mind-twisting stuff...... I'm also curious how you and Janem could come away from the same material with such divergent impressions. We all know that we see and interpret life through the filters of our own lives and experiences. I don't know, but perhaps that's playing a part here.
It seems to me that those women stuck around volitionally, with an admittedly, restless spirit. Depressive and vulnerable.....I'll say! When was the last time any of us have seen a performer break down and cry serious tears in front of a throng of adoring fans.
I don't see "Artist as Lover" as starry-eyed or naieve, much less extremely, either one, as we've clearly been talking about the personae that's created by his music, "artist" and "as" being key words there. Part of the delight of some forms of art is the magic that it weaves. Ballet has never been presumed to be an accurate depiction of how people live their lives ~ tutus, high leaps, supporting one another in suspension, et al.
Many performers have tried [well, until it became more fashionable] to mask their shortcomings. Leonard was revealing his prior to that trend.
With regard to your comments on Leonard's choice of spiritual practice, the concept of detachment is a pretty common theme elsewhere, as well. Unconditional love of all beings is facilitated through it. Lack of attachment to the material world as well. It allows for that upward spiral of spirituality to occur. "Desire" is what gets and keeps a lot of us in trouble.
"He required commitment" [not an unreasonable "expectation"]; "but couldn't always offer it in return," suggesting that at least sometimes he could. It seems to me that Leonard has been forthright about most everything regarding his mental/emotional snakes and spiders. Again, I feel it's an unfair attempt to invalidate his integrity to suggest that he would make false claims regarding the continuity of his former lovers in his life. This particular comment was one I read in an article since his going to Mt. Baldy. If I were at home right now, I could cite it directly.
".....his charm.....like a switchblade" is effective writing, and an accurate depiction of manic-depressives. I don't feel that the women's absence in Ira's book is reflective of anything other than Ira's choice to not include them. It seems, from your interpretation at least, that he offered enough fuel for condemnation without them.
Shall we poll the males/females on the Forum regarding infidelity issues....then perhaps everyone can be grabbing for that first stone
. Double-standard[s] also hold some great possibilities for a poll.Meanwhile, for myself, I invoke that right, which raffzahn already pointed out, to make use of that famed double-standard, when it comes to Leonard. One of the many freedoms of not being involved with Leonard Cohen. Were I in a relationship with him, it would be different, of course
.....I only expect what I'm willing to give in terms of fidelity. Blissfully and naievely yours,
Lizzytysh
I am not going on and on with this either, but from what I have read, I agree with SL.
None of us know the real man, and I am not judging him I have no reason to judge him other than he is a public figure and listening to him being put on a pedestal is what I can't agree with. He himself in his words in his songs and poetry does not lead us to believe other wise.
One more time, what I mean by "words are cheap", someone (OK NOT LC) anyone who says one thing and does another, the words are cheap. Actions speak louder than words.
None of us know the real man, and I am not judging him I have no reason to judge him other than he is a public figure and listening to him being put on a pedestal is what I can't agree with. He himself in his words in his songs and poetry does not lead us to believe other wise.
One more time, what I mean by "words are cheap", someone (OK NOT LC) anyone who says one thing and does another, the words are cheap. Actions speak louder than words.
Linda
Dear Linda,
"Sordid".....hmmm, sounds a bit stoning to me.....particularly when the specific things mentioned are "infidelity" and "charm," with a "depressive" and "vulnerable" person. I just don't happen to count "sordid" amongst my "complimentary things to call a person." For those who might feel they justly assign this label, I would hope they have a whole lot more stacked-up behind the above four, quoted words.
With the "words are cheap" phrase, I knew how you meant it. It's a phrase I'm familiar with. My answer was simply to say that I don't see where Leonard has tried to justify his actions, past or future, with pacifying words. Not having read the book, of course, who knows..... Yet, I can relate to what Janem says, who has read it.....and what others, whom I know have read it, have to say about Leonard. It just doesn't jibe with what SL is saying. That's all.....difference in perspective.
For me, when someone says negative things about another person, as well as their private life, I don't feel it's ridiculous at all to pursue it further, and from an advocacy perspective [my particular choice]. As you've said, and we all agree, we don't really have the tru/est, inside information....so why presume the worst? Why presume that Leonard's former lovers not being quoted in Ira's book means they may be disgruntled, and that their still being friends with Leonard may likely not even be the truth? I've just never been one to sit idly by while others slam-dunk someone [even people I don't care for, much less someone I do]. Perhaps a character flaw of mine....."rescuer" role and all that .
~Lizzytysh
Dear SL,
Another possibility [at worst] might be something like, "According to Ira Nadel, Leonard used to be.....[whatever]; however, according to his interviews, it appears his depression has lifted and he's in a much better space now ~ no doubt a welcome change for any woman, with whom he might now become involved. He seems much happier and more at peace, and continues to extoll the virtues of women. Good for you, Leonard." I guess that might be over-the-top for your taste though, huh. Oh well....
I guess those would be my words. What a person was 10 years ago counts much less if they're better now. What a person was 10 years ago counts much more if they're worse now.
~Lizzytysh
"Sordid".....hmmm, sounds a bit stoning to me.....particularly when the specific things mentioned are "infidelity" and "charm," with a "depressive" and "vulnerable" person. I just don't happen to count "sordid" amongst my "complimentary things to call a person." For those who might feel they justly assign this label, I would hope they have a whole lot more stacked-up behind the above four, quoted words.
With the "words are cheap" phrase, I knew how you meant it. It's a phrase I'm familiar with. My answer was simply to say that I don't see where Leonard has tried to justify his actions, past or future, with pacifying words. Not having read the book, of course, who knows..... Yet, I can relate to what Janem says, who has read it.....and what others, whom I know have read it, have to say about Leonard. It just doesn't jibe with what SL is saying. That's all.....difference in perspective.
For me, when someone says negative things about another person, as well as their private life, I don't feel it's ridiculous at all to pursue it further, and from an advocacy perspective [my particular choice]. As you've said, and we all agree, we don't really have the tru/est, inside information....so why presume the worst? Why presume that Leonard's former lovers not being quoted in Ira's book means they may be disgruntled, and that their still being friends with Leonard may likely not even be the truth? I've just never been one to sit idly by while others slam-dunk someone [even people I don't care for, much less someone I do]. Perhaps a character flaw of mine....."rescuer" role and all that
.~Lizzytysh
Dear SL,
Another possibility [at worst] might be something like, "According to Ira Nadel, Leonard used to be.....[whatever]; however, according to his interviews, it appears his depression has lifted and he's in a much better space now ~ no doubt a welcome change for any woman, with whom he might now become involved. He seems much happier and more at peace, and continues to extoll the virtues of women. Good for you, Leonard." I guess that might be over-the-top for your taste though, huh. Oh well....
I guess those would be my words. What a person was 10 years ago counts much less if they're better now. What a person was 10 years ago counts much more if they're worse now.~Lizzytysh