The Forum and Facebook

[musicmania]

While it's obvious that some of us are spending time on Facebook, there is not a shred of evidence that this is done at the expense of constructive, meaningful discussion here. If you ask me, it is the "end of tour anti-climax" that caused the recent slump in the forum, and the presence of forum members on Facebook will only help to re-energize the community and eventually drive more traffic to the forum and its associated sites.

Avi

PS: I had just sent you a friend request on Facebook, I hope you accept

I agree with what you say here Avi about the "end of tour anti-climax" as things have quietened down here since the end of the tour and we were all on FB before the end of the tour. I don't see FB as a competition with the forum. I check into both several times a day and find value in both, here for all things Leonard and FB like you Avi for all other aspects of my life especially my photography which would have no place here. I feel blessed that I have made many Cohen connections both here and on FB and many of my Cohenite FB friends were found here first and it then spread over to FB. While I do see loads of Cohen based stuff on FB I always use the forum as my main source of information and even if I see something on FB I'll automatically check here for it too.

I get what you are saying about new users Paula but agree with what Avi says about the need to grow. I remember joining the forum after my first Cohen concert and loved and still love the community feel to this site. I am saddened you and other longterm members are posting less than before and hope that changes as a relative newcomer of less than 2 years I feel I have plenty to learn for those around here a lot longer than me.

I think I requested you as a FB friend Doron. I have got a LC photo as my profile pic but it is one of me and him with a frame around it. It doesn't bother me if people use his picture but I do like to know what the people I'm adding on FB look like as unlike here we do share alot more of ourselves on FB and I like to have some idea of what I am sharing so in that aspect I understand where you are coming from though I think your reasons are different to mine. In case I'm mistaken I'll send you another request which if you turn down I won't take offense at. In answer to your question about correct manners on FB I generally accept friends where there is a mutual interest or mutual friends. I don't accept complete strangers with no conncection what so ever and can never understand why people add random strangers. I have my profile partially open to friends of friends so they can add me and see who I am if I add them but it is blocked off to strangers. Finally from my own experience I have made wonderful real friends on FB and hope you do too

[Sqezekid]

I am also a Facebook user and Forum visitor - have read Forum for several years but only "joined " fairly recently. Have been a fan of Leonard's for about 35 years.
Haven't posted much on the Forum, but usually check it most days. I did post recently on the subject of the new book "Poems and Songs" because there was an issue over here in the UK about there being two separate books published. I did ask which dust jacket the US version had on it, but no-one gave me an answer,,,
On Facebook, I have made friends with about 250 Leonard fans - some of them I email or speak on the phone with regularly. If it hadn't been for one FB friend, I would never have got to my first LC concert. I have problems travelling and she just went ahead, booked the tickets, told me I was going and we went! Meeting with other FB friends when we got there.
Then just recently, through FB, discovered that another LC fan was going to a concert by another artist that I was also going to, and so that meant meeting a couple of more of my FB, Leonard Cohen friends, for the first time in a totally different setting.
So while the Forum is a good source of news, I don't find the same warmth of friendship on here that I do on FB or the same easy chat that it is possible to have on FB. I think they both serve slightly different purposes and both have a place. But for me, I enjoy being able to "see" who I am chatting to on FB and having a light hearted exchange of views about the various YouTube clips, or seeing what photographs of him that people have found, or reading the poetry that is posted.
Gill

[brightnow]

I am a "both/and" kind of person...

Leave it to Anne to condense everything into just a few syllables...

[DBCohen]

Thank you all for your encouraging responses. I was speaking somewhat tongue in cheek, knowing and trusting that the Forum is not about to disintegrate any moment soon, but I did wish to make a few observations and see what other people were thinking. So far it’s been quite rewarding.

As always on the Forum, the discussion soon went off on a tangent, this time due to some misunderstanding of Paula’s remark. I’m sure nobody here thinks in terms of old-timers vs. new-comers; I consider myself a relative new-comer too (only four and a half years), and I also don’t think people should be evaluated by the volume of their posting (mine is relatively low). The point is the commitment to the Forum. It is a fact that hundreds of people joined during the recent tour, many of them no doubt in order to get the special deals for Forum members; others had a fleeting interest and soon dropped out; some are genuinely interested, and have stayed over. So it is not the matter of when you’ve joined but how important is the Forum for you, and I’m sure that’s what Paula had in mind. She is also correct when pointing out that several people who were main pillars of the Forum are not seen around lately; I’ve noticed that some are active on Facebook and that’s why I made my observation, but let’s not make a big deal out of this point either. Let’s just hope that there are yet to be more interesting discussions on the Forum, and that many people, old and new, will join in them.

Now a little more about our favorite social network. Facebook is a money-making machine; like any global capitalist venture, its aim is to expend indefinitely (and that’s why I used that “tentacles” metaphor earlier, albeit while realizing how trite it was). That’s also why they keep nagging you all the time to make more and more “friends”, so it can keep expending further and further. Like other capitalist ventures, it gives a relatively good service that people enjoy using, but it also goes wrong in many ways. Like Google, which started up innocuously enough and now can’t really be trusted, Facebook is also there to maximize profits, and I’ve been hearing many complaints regarding privacy and other issues. Of course, everybody who joins does so voluntarily, but we don’t really think about how all the data we put in is going to be used. If there is still an opening for Big Brother, Facebook is a leading candidate. I don’t mean that we should now scrap it all, because there is no turning back, but we must also keep on the alert and ask questions about what it’s doing to us. Those interested can take a look at - for example - the following list of concerns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Facebook

The Forum, on the other hand, is a non-profit, (almost) totally protected environment, where you can really feel at home (although, as in other homes, there is the occasional strife and even some domestic violence). If we are talking “old” and “new”, then the Forum represents the old promise of the Internet, while Facebook demonstrates its more recent deformation.

I also wish to express my reservation over the use of the term “fan” (here’s another tangent for you). LC has been an important part of my life for the past 40 years, but I don’t like to think of this connection in terms of “fandom”. Frankly, I often felt uncomfortable with various expressions of fandom and idolizing. Although I never had a personal exchange with him, I’d like to think about it in terms of companionship.

Finally, when talking about pictures, I was referring specifically to the Profile picture one uses on Facebook, because in such a huge and open environment, I believe it is only fair to show who you are and not hide behind various masks. Regarding the avatars people use on the Forum, it really makes no difference to me, since it’s a different kind of environment, and if I must see what somebody looks like, there is the Beautiful Losers Gallery! Do join it, if you haven’t yet; oops, I hope I haven’t caused Jarkko too much extra work

Thanks again for all the fascinating responses. Please keep them coming.

Doron

[donalagata]

Many good points made... I believe there is room for both facebook and the forum in a person's life. It is about personal choice... They both provide a place for "people"...not newbies or oldies to gather and communicate. Their survival will be determined by many factors... and they are both relevant to each person for their own personal reasons. They are both community pages designed for different purposes but to have the ability to overlap. They are not in competition with each other and are not a threat to each others existence. Their life force is human interaction ....which should be encouraged not discouraged... both places can enrich our life and offer friendship...

With respect to all,
donalagata

[brightnow]

I’m sure nobody here thinks in terms of old-timers vs. new-comers;

I completely, wholeheartedly, unequivocally disagree (at least with the "nobody" part).

Facebook is a money-making machine; like any global capitalist venture, its aim is to expend indefinitely (and that’s why I used that “tentacles” metaphor earlier, albeit while realizing how trite it was). That’s also why they keep nagging you all the time to make more and more “friends”, so it can keep expending further and further. Like other capitalist ventures, it gives a relatively good service that people enjoy using, but it also goes wrong in many ways. Like Google, which started up innocuously enough and now can’t really be trusted

Close your eyes, take a deep breath, and repeat after me: "I am not afraid of technology / I am not afraid of technology / I am not afraid of technology...". Seriously, many of the services we use online are for-profit, and when the service comes at no cost you can be sure that the company behind it will find every possible way to make another penny. Even this forum is constantly crawled by search bots (so everything you post here can be found on oh-so-evil Google) and targeted by spam bots.

Simple rules that will keep you safe on any platform:
1. Trust no one; Don't trust the service, don't trust the fear-mongerers. Find out for yourself what the service's limitations are or consult a trusted advisor.
2. Follow basic common-sense safety rules: use strong passwords, change passwords regularly, use SSL where available, don't use suspicious wireless networks, don't use bad software (if you are reading this post using Internet Explorer -- you are using bad software...).
3. Always assume that there is a chance of a breach, think about privacy and secrets in terms of risk management: nothing is completely protected, it's a question of how much effort you should invest in further reducing the probability of a breach. Apply increasingly powerful layers of protection to different levels of personal information. My tax documents, for example, can only be found on a strongly-encrypted partition on my computer; things that I consider to be true secrets are not to be found on any computer system.

Avi

PS: Thanks for accepting my friend request

[mat james]

What is "facebook"?



BBG

[mat james]

Frankly, I often felt uncomfortable with various expressions of fandom and idolizing. Although I never had a personal exchange with him, I’d like to think about it in terms of companionship.

I'll go along with that attitude Doron.
(Does that mean that you may never be a fan of mine either?)

Mat

[DBCohen]

Avi,

Thanks for your input. As for your complain, I must say that I’ve never encountered evidence in that respect, but I’m willing to be enlightened.

Mat,

So now you want fans, do you? You’ll have to make do with a dueling partner

[Paula]

OK in a nutshell. I am pleased we have new blood it keeps the forum active and flowing. My point was the forum went from a few hundred to thousands overnight almost and the ones that were here felt totally overwhelmed with the sheer amount of posts therefore a lot of the orginal members backed off and it would be nice to see them again.

The ones who joined in that sudden onslaught have mostly drifted away but the ones that stayed are now part of the fabric of the forum.

It is nice to have newer members I am not a complete misantrope.

[donalagata]

"The ones who joined in that sudden onslaught have mostly drifted away but the ones that stayed are now part of the fabric of the forum. "
Sorry I have not mastered all of the cut and paste techniques but the above is a quote from Paulas reply.
Hello Paula, nice to meet you...
Speaking strictly for myself which is the only person I can actually speak for...I just want to address the comment as stated above...
I myself do not feel the need or desire to post on every thread or reply to every comment on the forum... in saying that I do not feel that I have "drifted away "from the forum. My presence may not be apparent to you and others however... I am present and I do read the forum. Sometimes I enjoy what I am reading and will comment and other times I do not like what I am reading and make the choice to comment or not to. There are many personalities that interact on this forum ... also different styles of communication and this is when there can be conflict or misunderstandings. The forum has moderators to monitor and manage the flow of communication.
Some of the comments made on the forum can be viewed and actually feel like a verbal attack. This can discourage many people from posting their thoughts and opinions . I have experienced this myself ...
Communication style is unique to each of us. The flip side of this is the perception of the listener to what they are reading. These are things that no one can control but what we can do is be sensitive and aware of all of these issues and choose words that encourage rather than discourage forum participation.
You said"fabric of the forum" I like the term.... very poetic... but for me it feels like an inclusive comment in that statement. My perception perhaps ?I guess my question is "who determines or what is or who makes up this "fabric of the forum"? My understanding is that this is a community page open to the public.

I think the fabric of the forum is the individual that it is centered around that being "Leonard Cohen". It was this man and my appreciation of his artisic gifts that guided me to the "Leonard Cohen (Community) ...if you google his name the forum website will come up. Yes there are indeed side topics and threads which do spin off of the forum something for everyone I suppose and this is good. It is a community page and I come here to spend time with others who share similar interests. I do not feel a sense of inclusive ownership to this group rather I find the experience to be rewarding in so many ways.
I have met many people on the forum from all over the world and with facebook I have extended some of these relationships into friendships.
There is room in the world for both the forum and facebook in fact for myself they compliment each other ...they both connect me to people who love and respect Leonard Cohen.
These are just my thoughts my perception and my feelings. I have shared them by choice and I hope that I have not offended or angered anyone.

Warmest Wishes,
donalagata

[donalagata]

Hello Paula,
I am so pleased that we did have this opportunity to openly express our feelings. This provides a perfect example of what I was saying . yes we do communicate differently ... however there is no right or wrong way to do so. What we are doing is sharing our thoughts and feelings freely and without offense or insult rather with an awareness of each other. I appreciate your openess and honesty. Thank you for the clarication on your meaning of the fabric of the forum...I do understand better what you were saying... I love clarification because it is an answer to so many misunderstandings. I do like the phrase "Fabric of the Forum" now that I do see your meaning...it is a beautiful phrase.
As far as trying to read people by the way they speak I find it difficult and misleading... I am very much a left brain thinker however the words that I communicate with often are as much felt as they are thought out. I am very connected to the emotional side of life which reflects in the way I write. Can be very sweet at times too but always sincere...
We have a wonderful group of people that visit the forum and everyone does have something very unique to offer and share. It would be a shame to lose or not have everyone's contributions because of communication issues. We are indeed a fabric ...much like a patchwork quilt... different but also the same for we are what represents a community.
No one is asking anyone to change ...however even though we are different ...we are here for the same reason...
I am so pleased Paula that you did respond to my post ...

Thank you,
donalagata



I

[donalagata]

Just a quick note...or clarification... it appears at least on my end that a post from Paula was removed . It was in between my two posts So the second post from me is a reply to Paula's post....confused yet ? I am getting there
Well it will make sense to Paula anyway ...

donalagata

[Paula]

Now I feel guilty 'cos I deleted my post in case I made matters worse so it is re-posted underneath

Hi donalagata

I just wanted to comment on your post. First of all I too have never mastered that quote thing everytime I try it it goes pear shaped.

Without stating the bleeding obvious if you are still here you have not drifted away so I can't quite see what you are trying to say. As far as I know no one comments on all threads and topics, I certainly don't.

The tone of my posts are how I speak in real life I am not a toucy feely lovey dovey person. I know that doesn't translate well in cold hard print but I can't change that and have no wish to.

Where some people might find my blunt posts offensive I actually find the overly sickly sweet love you all posts quite offensive but we are all different I sometimes think they smack of falseness, but the writer is probably being genuine.

I would say the community is the fabric surrounding Leonard rather than the other way round in my view Leonard is the centre piece and the forum members wrap around him and not the other way round. But that is just my perception.

[Paula]

donalagata Cheers for seeing things from my perspective It is very hard almost impossible for me to lie and my social niceties suffer as a result. In England it is "calling a spade a spade" and it can be a curse but that is how my brain works it doesn't work on pleasantries.