Hallelujah i.e. whowrotehalelujah.com

[caz]

http://www.whowrotehallelujah.com/

Uh-oh......

[IMM]

Bob would recognize a 'baffled' look -- he gets a few of 'em.

[Fontana]

25 November 2010

Who wrote Hallelujah: Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan?

A music critic is advancing a pretty controversial theory regarding the folk sensation supposedly penned by Leonard Cohen, ‘Hallelujah’. According to the critic the song was written by Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen, however is more of a Dylan song than a Cohen piece. The critic who does not identify himself other than saying that his surname happens to be Cohen outlines his theory on a website http://www.whowrotehallelujah.com he comes to his conclusions through analysis of the lyrics and circumstantial evidence.

The theory is already spreading through musical forums. Some are convinced, while diehard Cohen fans aren’t too impressed. The mystique regarding the song grows daily and it remains one of the most covered pieces as well as one of the most used in films. This theory will surely only add to its mystique …and its pedigree: if indeed it was composed by two of the greatest musicians alive. Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen are known to have been close friends for decades.

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http://www.cultureclashdaily.com/page1111192.php

[IMM]

It is shocking to find that "Paul is dead".
Was there not a warning published on the Various Positions jacket, to the effect that you shouldn't put the needle into the grooves of the 5th track and rotate the turntable backwards?
Being a brave experimenter - I once tried that - it did sound a bit like Dylan that way.

[hydriot]

"'Now, I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played and it pleased the Lord'
These lines were probably penned by Cohen. They refer to Bob Dylan himself.'

Wouldn't it be lovely if egotists like this other Cohen remembered the availability of those four lovely letters IMHO?

"In this case the “holy hallelujah” refers to Judaism while the “broken hallelujah” refers to Christianity, alluding to Christianity being a derivative form of Judaism."

I take particular exception to his description of Christianity as merely a derivative form of Judaism (a bit like saying that the United States is just a derivative of Britain, since the USA was once a British colony). Theologically, Judaism has more in common with Islam (both being religions that stress obedience to the law, and both honouring the common ancestor Abraham) than with Christianity (which stresses faith above all else). But then I don't suppose this other Cohen bothered to learn anything about Christianity before he let his fingers fly across the keyboard.

Yet another example of someone bending the facts to fit a pre-formed theory.

[lizzytysh]

"Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen are known to have been close friends for decades."

Really? Know by whom and where?
They certainly knew of and respected each other's work and had at least one conversation regarding how long it took them to write a song.
And that Bob went to one of Leonard's concerts and, I believe, vice versa. They were certainly contemporaries. "Close friends for decades" is a conceptual leap.
I'd love to see Dylan's notebook with all the MANY lines and lyrics and verses of Hallelujah, that Leonard has.

Hydriot nailed it in his last sentence:

Yet another example of someone bending the facts to fit a pre-formed theory.

If this theory were a political ad, I'm very certain that Dylan would have a disclaimer attached at the end to the effect of "This ad was not approved by me, Bob Dylan."


~ Lizzy

[blonde madonna]

I laughed most when it was claimed Dylan sang Hallelujah like he owned it, in my opinion the only cover version worse than this one is Bono's.

So this is how you get attention on the net - concoct a stupid story about two well known songwriters and an iconic song and throw in some Jewish/Christian aspersions...bammo.

[lightning]

This theory is for the people who also believe that Shakespeare was not written by Shakespeare, but another author with the same name.

[cohenadmirer]

an amusing distraction for a cold winter evening .
Love Dylan's live COVER version of hallelujah though .

[Pope]

I'm sorry this is utter nonsense that Dylan had anything to do with Hallelujah.
He can't even sing it.
I have always thought, though, that Dylan wrote 'The Weight'
Glyn
http://glynpope.blogspot.com/

[daka]

Hello Hydriot

You wrote:

"In this case the “holy hallelujah” refers to Judaism while the “broken hallelujah” refers to Christianity, alluding to Christianity being a derivative form of Judaism."

I would appreciate knowing what you base this interpretation on. If it is based on some direct comments of Leonard's please pass them on, if you don't mind.

IMHO... This is my interpretation of some of the song...(and it is definitely not a religious interpretation)

But love is not a victory march
It's a cold and it's a broken ...hallelujah

There was a time when you let me know
What's really going on below
Ah but now, you never even
Show it to me , do ya
But I remember when
I moved in you
Yes and the holy dove, she was moving too
Yes and every single breath that we took
Was Hallelujah

I see nothing religious in this song. (maybe in the first verse which I don't understand very deeply... David was religious, of course and trying to please the lord, maybe, but I would need that explained to me a bit more to believe it is really dealing with religious issues). IMHO it is about the deep emotional polarity of relationships; the intense bliss and the intense suffering, both of which lead to a "Hallelujah"....either a primal pain scream of Hallelujah or an orgasmic blissful shout of Hallelujah.

Leonard has been a Buddhist since the seventies and therefore IMHO the discriminations of various theistic groups hold no interest for him. Buddhism is atheistic (there is no god-creator). Of course Leonard has a cultural origin in Judaism so that his literature is full of metaphors from Judaism, and thus he has many delicate tightwires to walk with the 'theisitic' population in his fan-base, but IMHO this song has nothing to do with judaism after the opening verse .

I would be interested in hearing peoples' understandings of the meaning of that first verse. The second verse for me goes right into the relationship drama where ......"she broke your throne and she cut your hair" refers to the humbling power of a woman to cut a man down to size and deprive him of his ego-strength as happened with Samson.

In a recorded video Leonard talks about a meeting with Dylan where they discussed how long it took them to write songs. Cohen asked about "I and I" and Dylan said it took minutes. Then in that interview Leonard referred to Hallelujah (perhaps asked by Dylan how long it took to write) and said that it took him three years but he said he was probably lying and it took four years. I doubt very much that Dylan had anything to do with the song.

Sean
daka

[hydriot]

Daka,

In my post above, everything in inverted commas is a quotation from the original article, linked from the first post in this thread. Like you, I challenge a lot of what that journalist said.

However, please be very clear that Leonard has said on several occasions (and I heard him so say at the Philip Glass talk in October 2007) that he is not a Buddhist. He is a Jew. He went to Mt Baldy principally to be with Roshi, with whom he has had a long and very close friendship.

Leonard is renowned for his perfectionism. He told me it took him six months to write the introduction to the Chinese edition of Beautiful Losers. Six months for a prose introduction to a book published about 40 years ago!

[daka]

Hello Hydriot

Thanks for your reply.

I spent 20 minutes on a reply to your reply then hit the wrong key and it disappeared into cyberspace.

Firstly the verification that I would need to believe that Leonard's Hallelujah interpretation is as you suggested would be a quotation from Leonard not the other Cohen,

Regarding your second point that Leonard said he was not a Buddhist I actually remember him saying something similar too and chuckling a bit. One has to be a Buddhist to understand the chuckling bit. It is like a pickle becoming a cucumber again. Now there are some people who dip into Buddhism because it is the fashion or something about it interests them and then drift on to something else, but LC is definitely not in this category.

What is a Buddhist?
What is a Jew?

My very limited understanding of Judaism is that if your mother was a Jew you can consider yourself to be a Jew. (rare exceptions like Sammy Davis Junior of course would need to be explained to me). So I do accept that Leonard Cohen is a Jew. Western Buddhism is littered with Jews, as they seem drawn to it for some karmic reason.

A Buddhist is anyone who is trying to follow the teachings of the Buddha. Leonard's lyrics are littered with profound evidence of his deep understanding of the teachings of Buddha, evidence that a profound and unusual wisdom descended on his mind through his 30+ years studying Buddhism. This solid evidence is apparent only to someone who is a Buddhist and I therefore understand perfectly that someone would take Leonard at his word and believe him when he says that he is not a Buddhist. My understanding is that Leonard does not consider himself a Buddhist culturally, and he distances himself from those who wear their Buddhism like a fashion garment, also from the new-age people who all seem to take a dip into Buddhism for a while. I also believe he is distancing himself from the Eastern Buddhist traditions many of which are a very sad presentation of Buddhist belief for the west; many Chinese for example view Buddhas as some kind of good luck symbol and they have a simplistic, superficial, and non-spiritual understanding of Buddhism.

It doesn't really matter what Leonard is or isn't. It doesn't really matter what he says he is or doesn't say he is. It matters what he is. What he is, to me, and to a huge base of discriminating humanity, is a very special human being who manifests a loving heart full of kindness, profound wisdom, and honesty. He is a fine human being, fulfilling his potential and providing an excellent example, inspiring us all. I think we can all agree on this?! Perhaps we can agree too that the end result was a mix of his Judaism and Buddhism?

There is a book I saw in a bookstore which had a very interesting title:

If you see the Buddha shoot him!

I never read the book but I think I know what the book is about.

Cheers

Sean (daka)