never-ending gallery

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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>When it comes to writing, I have always thought that it is best for people to write in a way that is natural for them, to write words in very much the same way that they would speak them (at least, that's what I do). The best writing (to me) is genuine and organic, coming from within oneself, and not based on what other people might write or how they might write it or even why they might write it. I am not anybody but me, and I can only speak -- and write and think -- for myself, and that's exactly what I do. I see no reason to do or be otherwise! 8)

thank you so much for this, and i agree. it's just that i always felt that writing too much using first-person pronouns hinted at a narcissistic personality, not unlike what your embroidery instructor has - and i don't want people to think that of me.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

Geoffrey wrote: Sat Nov 08, 2025 2:05 pm ...it's just that i always felt that writing too much using first-person pronouns hinted at a narcissistic personality...- and i don't want people to think that of me...

I would like to add a footnote to my previous comments about using first-person pronouns. There are times when it is arguably inappropriate to use first person pronouns, namely, when one is writing formal non-fiction, such as a book about the history of art during the Habsburg Empire, or an academic essay on themes in Plato's Republic, or presenting scientific evidence based on research that has been done, that sort of thing. That kind of writing should (arguably) be exclusively about the subject matter, and not about the author, and therefore, first-person pronouns would be out-of-place, because what an individual thinks or feels about the subject matter would not be relevant. I suppose that one could write an introduction to such a piece, in which they express their own thoughts and ideas and feelings about the subject matter, but they should probably keep that separate from the main work.

However, in everyday, personal interactions, especially when so many people communicate with each other by text, in online platforms or on a phone (which really should be no different from they way they would interact in person, speaking face-to-face), using first-person pronouns is totally acceptable and, as far as I'm concerned, even preferable. It would never occur to me to think that a person is a narcissist simply because they use first-person pronouns: when I am talking to a person (in text or speaking), I want to know what they think and what they did/do, and what they feel, and the best way for them to express those things to me would be by using "I" when they talk to me. And, I use "I" and other first-person pronouns in exactly the same way: to express my own thoughts and feelings and ideas and experiences, etc..

Of course, if one talks incessantly about themselves and never lets anybody else get a word in edgeways, then that may well reflect some sort of personality disorder or maybe just social ineptitude, but that is a completely different matter altogether than somebody who simply uses "I" when talking about their own thoughts, feelings and experiences.

To remove oneself (the "I") from what one says/writes, in personal communication, for me, makes a person seem rather cold and remote, as if they are refusing to share anything about themselves. At worst, they strike me as not very interesting people, if they have nothing to say about themselves. I enjoy talking to people who have interesting minds, who are curious and interested in a lot of things, who enjoy a diversity of hobbies and activities, and who can thus talk with me about things that they have been doing or thinking about. And, that involves them saying things like, "I just finished reading a really interesting book; I attended a wonderful concert; I've been thinking about the interconnections in nature", or even more mundane things, like, "I tried a new recipe last night; I bought a new houseplant" -- it doesn't have to be deep or intellectual, but I like it best when it is about them. If they have even basic social skills, then they will allow me to share my own thoughts and ideas on what they have said, and they will listen to whatever I talk about -- that is how people have conversations, exchanging with each other their own thoughts, feelings, ideas and experiences.

Besides, in my experience, people who tend not to talk about themselves often talk about other people a lot, frequently making assumptions and generalisations about other people (which I hate), and even revealing personal information about other people that seems to me to be an infringement of their privacy (spreading gossip and hearsay, etc). I don't like talking to people about other people -- I want to talk to a person about themselves. And, that necessarily -- and preferably -- involves them using first-person pronouns.

Of course, everybody is different, everybody has different perceptions and hang-ups, and perhaps it may be the case that some people tend to project their own idiosyncrasies onto other people, believing that if they think and feel a certain way, then so does everyone else (at least, I have encountered evidence to suggest that some people are like that), but that is something that I have never done. It has never occurred to me to think that anybody else thinks or feels the way that I do, and perhaps as a result, I tend not to worry about what other people think, because they will think what they think, regardless of anything that I might say or do. For instance, I am quite certain that everything I have just written will be completely disregarded by anybody who does not share my thoughts and feelings on these matters, for these sorts of things are probably quite deeply ingrained in a person's sense of self, in their personality, in their inclinations, all of which are not easily, if ever, changed.

If you, Geoffrey, feel more comfortable avoiding first-person pronouns, for whatever reasons, then keep doing it. Or, use them, if it makes you feel better about yourself. But, I would hope that whatever choices you make, you make them because they reflect who you are, as a person, and not who you think others want you to be, or how you think others perceive you. Of course, if you care more about what others think about you than what you think about yourself (even if you are possibly wrong about what others think!), then go on doing whatever you feel is best. I can only tell you how I think and how I feel and what I do, which is why I use first-person pronouns as often as I do -- not because I am a narcissist (I am anything but!), but because I know myself very well, I am the one living my life, and my point-of-view is the only one I have, and thus the only one that I can justifiably and reasonably share when I have conversations with people. And, in those conversations, it is always my hope that those with whom I am talking can and will share a bit of themselves with me, in the first-person!
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

thanks! that was a thought-provoking message. everything you write here makes sense, as usual - so enviably intelligent and eloquent you are! i will try to write more naturally, although writing almost exclusively in lower case letters is preferred. i can switch to upper case ones (such as 'BBC', 'UK', IQ, etc.) if it seems to better fit, but have no personal rules. leonard frequently wrote to me using lower case, so maybe it's his influence in play. sometimes his emails had the appearance of poems, especially from a distance, even though they were not. each written line had a different length, some of them only containing a few words.

in speech, i think part of the reason people use a lot of first-person pronouns could be because it is generally accepted that the person with whom one is communicating is not really so interested in what is being said. i seldom talk about myself when with others, much prefer to discuss something more interesting. sitting with a group of friends, which is quite often, observing their interactions can be an education. one person starts telling something about themselves and before they have even finished another person will say "i remember when i . . ." and tell about something similar that happened to them - starting a chain reaction around the table. if only they could wait for the first person to finish speaking and then show a little interest in what was said by asking more about it.

first-person pronouns in writing is most noticeable to me when someone starts too many sentences with "I". it makes me wonder how aware they are of the negative impression they give to others, or perhaps only to over-critical people like myself. of course it's ok to do it here and there, but surely it's not necessary to do it incessantly. i obviously must learn to be more intolerant, not get irritated over a trifle. the same when people speak using a lot of 'filler' words/sounds, such as "uuuh", "sort of", "umm", "you know", "like" and so on - so unbearable to listen to. the cause is probably because they know that if a two-second silence occurs they will be interrupted. also, people used to begin answering a question by saying "well, . . ." but that habit has now morphed into "so, . . .".

anyway, i guess none of it matters, if we look at "the big picture" - as woody allen says.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

Geoffrey wrote: Sun Nov 09, 2025 5:59 am ...in speech, i think part of the reason people use a lot of first-person pronouns could be because it is generally accepted that the person with whom one is communicating is not really so interested in what is being said...

"Generally accepted"... hmmm, that is a rather extraordinary thing to assert. If you are correct, then there would be absolutely no reason for anyone to have a conversation with anybody, since nobody would actually care about what anybody else is saying -- one may as well talk to themselves.

Perhaps I am delusional, but I actually enjoy talking with my friends, for I am genuinely interested in what they say, and I think that they feel the same way about me. However, my social circle is very small -- I am very selective about those with whom I spend my time, I don't see them very often, and I almost always interact with them one-on-one -- I have never liked group activities. Of course, the dynamics of one-on-one interactions are usually quite different from group dynamics (and often far more satisfying), and perhaps some of the shallow, self-centred, superficiality that you observe with your friends is more likely to occur in a group setting, and thus you experience it frequently (or, maybe you just have really lousy friends!). :)
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>"Generally accepted"... hmmm, that is a rather extraordinary thing to assert. If you are correct, then there would be absolutely no reason for anyone to have a conversation with anybody, since nobody would actually care about what anybody else is saying -- one may as well talk to themselves

sometimes it seems that way, as if one may just as well talk to oneself.

>. . . maybe you just have really lousy friends!

they are mostly very kind, although not all are gifted with an abundance of social intelligence - but that is usually the case when several people assemble together.
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its4inthemorning
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by its4inthemorning »

Just to let G and L know that at least one other person is reading the latest exchange.

Lisa, that was quite an essay on first-person usage, thanks for collecting those thoughts together and putting them down to paper (or more accurately, screen). Hidden in my brain has always been a fear that I use the first person too much when writing, even to the point that I occasionally rewrite sentences or phrases to mitigate this. Your thoughts put me somewhat at ease.

Geoffrey, in your little diatribe about fillers that people use when are searching for how they will continue, you left out one. It doesn't quite fit the pattern of being used to fill time when thinking, but it is inserted in conversation almost randomly as an adverb. I will just call it "the L word" to find out if you or Lisa can guess it. An acquaintance of mine makes prolific use of the oxymoronic filler, "to make a long story short," or its shortened version "long story short." Whenever he says it, I know he is going to make the story he's telling longer.

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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

its4inthemorning wrote:
>Just to let G and L know that at least one other person is reading the latest exchange.
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you know i like literally jumped out of my chair when this uuuh message came in. i uuum thought lisa and i were like basically sort of alone in here.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

its4inthemorning wrote: Mon Nov 10, 2025 8:36 pm [Re:] fillers that people use [...] inserted in conversation almost randomly as an adverb. I will just call it "the L word" to find out if [Geoffrey] or Lisa can guess it.[...]. An acquaintance of mine makes prolific use of the oxymoronic filler, "to make a long story short," or its shortened version "long story short." Whenever he says it, I know he is going to make the story he's telling longer.
The "L" word? Did Geoffrey literally use it in his response? (Incidentally, I am not fond of guessing games, because I seldom have any idea what somebody else is thinking, nor do I have their experiences. If somebody says to me, "Guess what?!", it is really annoying, and I usually say, "Just tell me!".).

I always roll my eyes when people say "long story short", because, as you noted, by the time they say that, they have already ventured well into novel-length territory.

Geoffrey wrote: Mon Nov 10, 2025 10:42 pm its4inthemorning wrote:
>Just to let G and L know that at least one other person is reading the latest exchange.
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you know i like literally jumped out of my chair when this uuuh message came in. i uuum thought lisa and i were like basically sort of alone in here.
lol. :D

On related matters, I personally blame the deterioration of humanity and language on the proliferation of social media. But, atypically, I will refrain from writing an essay about it! ;-)
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>If somebody says to me, "Guess what?!", it is really annoying, and I usually say, "Just tell me!".).

i just say "what!" because i think they're dying to tell you anyway.

>On related matters, I personally blame the deterioration of humanity and language on the proliferation of social media.

quite so, although language is a complex and living concept. in school children are taught " 'i' before 'e' except after 'c' " - but that's not the case. we have the beatles' manager brian epstein and sex trafficker jeffrey epstein, the former rhymes with 'stine' the latter with 'steen'.
americans seem to cherry pick here. they can happily say 'een' when talking about the sex trafficker, but when it comes to 'frankenstein' or 'einstein' their pronunciation crosses the atlantic.
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on an unrelated matter: don't let the weather stop you from going out; it's actually great walking in a storm!
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

sketched with pen while listening to 'electric ladyland'.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

Geoffrey wrote: Wed Nov 12, 2025 9:49 pm ...language is a complex and living concept...
Indeed it is.

Geoffrey wrote: Wed Nov 12, 2025 9:49 pm ...don't let the weather stop you from going out; it's actually great walking in a storm!
I love being out in the rain, or the snow (unless it is very windy and cold at the same time, which is somewhat less fun). One of my favourite winter experiences is to be outside when there is no wind, while big fluffy snowflakes fall gently to the ground -- it is magical!
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

LisaLCFan wrote:
>One of my favourite winter experiences is to be outside when there is no wind, while big fluffy snowflakes fall gently to the ground -- it is magical!
---
yes, especially late in a mid-winter evening, in a country lane with only lamplights - and not a sound can be heard :)
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

Geoffrey wrote: Mon Nov 17, 2025 12:32 am LisaLCFan wrote:
>One of my favourite winter experiences is to be outside when there is no wind, while big fluffy snowflakes fall gently to the ground -- it is magical!
---
yes, especially late in a mid-winter evening, in a country lane with only lamplights - and not a sound can be heard :)
Yes, that's the best! :D
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Geoffrey
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by Geoffrey »

cover for a new children's book :)
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LisaLCFan
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Re: never-ending gallery

Post by LisaLCFan »

Geoffrey wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 12:28 am cover for a new children's book :)
[entitled In My Secret Life, with a picture of Leonard Cohen]
:lol: I can just imagine what such a story would be like -- perhaps not entirely appropriate for young children!


By the way, I recently had the great pleasure of hearing a live performance of one of your -- Geoffrey's -- favourite pieces of classical music: Paganini's delightful Violin Concerto No. 1. The soloist (a very talented young Canadian named Kerson Leong) was absolutely astonishing: his technique was flawless (the Paganini concerto is fiendishly difficult in places), and his musicality was sublime -- he was able to infuse his playing with so much emotional expressiveness, in addition to the technical fireworks! It was wonderful to hear Paganini's first concerto performed live (I don't recall ever having heard it other than on recordings), and I enjoyed it very much!

After the concert, I was so inspired by all of the wonderful music and musicianship that I had experienced, that I rushed home and played my beautiful Romantic guitar well into the wee hours (my choice of music was Bach -- not of the Romantic era like Paganini or my guitar, but that's okay -- Bach is timeless!). Music -- whether listening to it or playing it oneself -- is truly is one of the greatest joys in life, for it is endlessly enriching!
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