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Thank you, Bilbao~

I beg to differ, re 'esoteric knowledge'. I was quite aware it was Latin, but (unless it is still taught in secondary schools where you are) it most certainly is 'esoteric' for those not taking specialized courses in college etc. To assume everyone can understand (or, more rarely, remember) a dead language is a little pretentious, don't you think?

I couldn't help but smile reading the grammatical (not to mention historical) pedantry, re "delenda/delendam", it reminded me so much of one of the classic scenes in Monty Python's "Life of Brian" (i.e. Roman soldier correcting the grammar in Brian's anti-Roman graffito, which then became graffiti x100 as punishment!) :)

~Makera

PS Still bemused by the choice as a 'signature', Helven; seems an anachronistic non sequitur to me. Why not "carpe diem"('seize the day'), as Bilbao suggested?

None has understood my humour… What a pity! It was too subtle… Well, I have to explain…

The idea to close every speech with that formulation always seemed to me quite funny. And the one to close every message with the same slogan seems sometimes rather funny too. So - you can see everything is easy – I’ve chosen that phrase just for fun and nothing more.

Also, with regard to the former subject, wanting to know (or assuming) too much about the 'person' through whom great works are manifest can be a stumbling block and distraction from the meaning and purpose of the 'work' itself.

I’d like to ask Makera, do you consider me to be that 'person'? If your answer is “yes” I have to call some explanations because this accusation seems to me too serious to be hurled in such a manner.

Helven

PS Still hope (in vein?), everyone may use as a slogan everything whatever he/she likes …

Oh my goodness, Helven, I'm so sorry for the confusion I seem to have caused! I did not address my return to the 'thread' subject to you at all, it was a general objective observation.

I realize, now, I should have put a different heading to separate my query to you and Bilbao from my comments on the thread. I hope you can forgive that blunder.

I do see the humour in your choice of signature for ending each statement, except that it loses impact when we don't know what it means.

No offence intended, hope none was taken.

~Makera

Makera,

My first message to Helven was supposed to be a joke. Since Helven was talking about illusions and her slogan was about the ruin of Carthage, I tried to tell her something like: "Hey, Helven, you're late! Your wish was fulfilled centuries ago!". I think she understood it, but since my English is quite a broken one, one never knows. It's difficult to translate a joke.

Makera wrote:
I beg to differ, re 'esoteric knowledge'. I was quite aware it was Latin, but (unless it is still taught in secondary schools where you are) it most certainly is 'esoteric' for those not taking specialized courses in college etc. To assume everyone can understand (or, more rarely, remember) a dead language is a little pretentious, don't you think? ?

In Spain, when we were young, a long time ago, we were taught Latin at school. (Well, not that long time ago: Latin was already a dead language! ) That was supposed to help us understand the roots of our own language, and any other Romance language, BTW. Of course, I?ve forgotten most of what I once learned.

Anyway, Latin expressions like "Delenda est Carthago", "Carpe diem", "Veni,vidi,vici", or "Alea iacta est" are still widely remembered and understood, without any specialized studies, by almost any Spaniard. And I know for certain that it goes the same way in France and Italy, at least. It's a reminiscence of our common cultural heritage.
Maybe in countries with a different linguistic background it goes the other way round, I don't know.
That's why I translated it for you, as you asked me to. Once again, I wasn't trying to sound pedantic. I was just trying to answer you in a simple and polite way, without any derogatory intention.

Makera wrote: I couldn't help but smile reading the grammatical (not to mention historical) pedantry, re "delenda/delendam", it reminded me so much of one of the classic scenes in Monty Python's "Life of Brian" (i.e. Roman soldier correcting the grammar in Brian's anti-Roman graffito, which then became graffiti x100 as punishment!) ?

I was not correcting Helven. Her "delendam" was absolutely right in her sentence. I was only trying to write down correctly my own sentence. That's the only reason for the difference between her "delendam" and my "delenda". I wasn't "teaching her Latin". Anyway, I'm happy that made you laugh! "Life of Brian" was quite a funny film. I loved it, too.

So, if I hurt you feelings in any way, my apologies. And about my pedantry, you're entitled to your own opinion.

Hi Bilbao~

Oops! I did it again. You are absolutely right, it IS "difficult to translate a joke". You are not correct to say: "my English is quite a broken one", on the contrary, you put many of us - native English speakers/writers - to shame! (I didn't even know English was not your native language).

I did, perhaps mistakenly, infer that you were 'showing off' a little and wanted to let you know others might think it rude if you didn't let them 'in on' the joke.

As for my 'in-joke' regarding "pedantry", I must explain. I love pedantry (in it's proper application). In my family this word has more positive connotations than the conventional usage and definition denotes.
The reason for this is, being lovers of correct English grammar, pronunciation and usage, we are constantly appalled by the degeneration of our language.(e.g. the acceptance, by preponderance of misuse/abuse, such infantile horrors as "snuck" as a past tense of "sneak", especially in the US)

We have been 'proud to be' pedants (like heretics) in defence of our language; I consider it perfectionism, not such a bad thing. Perfectionists have always irritated the greater mediocrity, hence the derogatory dictionary-definition of "pedant".

I do hope this has helped to untangled our 'crossed wires' here. I'm so glad you liked "Life of Brian", the satire in that is truly brilliant (and more profound than many realize)

So, you are Spanish. Beautiful language, wonderful music. Placido Domingo and Julio Iglacias (sorry,can't remember the spelling) are some of my favourite singers. Spanish and Flamenco guitar music is sublime!

Also, thank you for your reply, it was most enlightening as I always strive to understand others.

~Makera

(So, should we consider this 'problem solved'?)

Hi Bilbao, Makera,

Bilbao, I really did understood your joke in the way you’ve explained it. The in my response showed it. But since my English is broken too – and, I’m afraid, more than yours – the response itself, probably, showed something else… Everything was OK!!!
(By the way, when I wrote that nobody understood my jokes my showed that it was nothing but joke too.)

Makera, I really was confused by the fact that the entire message seemed to be addressed to Bilbao and me! My brain began to “boil” while I was thinking over the question “What have I done?!” But I like misunderstandings of this kind ‘cause there is much laughter when they are resolved. So that’s OK too!

And I must add, I did think my slogan was easy to understand – if even I who have never studied Latin and who speak non-Romance language knew that phrase… I apologize if my choice seemed to be pretentious.

Well, I hope the problem is finally solved!

Helven

PS

So, you are Spanish. Beautiful language, wonderful music. Placido Domingo and Julio Iglacias (sorry,can't remember the spelling) are some of my favourite singers. Spanish and Flamenco guitar music is sublime!

Oh, Makera, I’m completely agree with you!

Hey Helven~

You are a sweetheart! Yes, you got me on that one (your knowing that Latin saying). Just one I missed, I guess.
There's an English joke about Latin phrases and how a misunderstanding caused the early Britons to give up so easily to Julius Ceasar. (This was actually in a satire on early English history, but I can't recall the author; the title, I think, was "1066 and All That")

Anyway, the 'story' goes that when the Britons heard what Ceasar had said upon landing in old Albion: "Veni, vidi, vici" [I came, I saw, I conquered], they thought he said they were 'weany, weedy and weaky'. They were so disheartened and depressed at that, they gave up without a fight!

~Makera

Hi, Makera

OK, problem solved. Thank you for your explanations and your kind --and undeserved-- compliments about my English.

Makera wrote: As for my 'in-joke' regarding "pedantry", I must explain.(...)
The reason for this is, being lovers of correct English grammar, pronunciation and usage, we are constantly appalled by the degeneration of our language.(e.g. the acceptance, by preponderance of misuse/abuse, such infantile horrors as "snuck" as a past tense of "sneak", especially in the US)

Never heard about such mistakes, neither would be able to notice them. Too busy trying to avoid big mistakes in my own posts and struggling to understand yours, English native speakers-writers.
'Degenerated English?' Keep on reading my messages. You'll see what a 'degenerated English' is!
So, if you see an awful mistake in my posts, feel free to correct me. I'm still learning.

Makera wrote: So, you are Spanish. Beautiful language, wonderful music. Placido Domingo and Julio Iglacias (sorry,can't remember the spelling) are some of my favourite singers. Spanish and Flamenco guitar music is sublime!

Well, more precisely, I am a Basque from Bilbao (North of Spain). Hence my nickname.
I used to enjoy Placido Domingo's powerful voice (and Luciano Pavarotti's) when they were both able to sing properly an aria. And that's a pity, but nowadays they're both reduced to perform old folk songs. Maybe they should consider a retirement. I've heard that Pavarotti is planning to do so.
And as for Julio Iglesias and flamenco....what can I say?. Being locked up on an empty room with nothing but Julio Iglesias and flamenco music meets my definition of hell.

Anyway, we still share our interest on LC... and the sense of humour, don't we? Not bad for a start.


PS. To both Makera and Helven.
( That means Post scriptum, postcript. I'm a pedantic a**hole, you know! )

Where are you from? I'm curious.

And Helven: I'm glad to know you understood my poor joke at first glance. I added the emoticons to make it clear. So did I with yours. Then, everything is OK at last!

Hi Bilbao~

Damn, you are funny! I really did 'laugh out loud' reading your last post That awful image of combining Julio Iglesias with Flamenco, simultaneously...ughhh! All depends on the mood you're in, Flamenco is only for dancing (it's the Flamenco dancers I love to watch).

I'm sorry to hear Placido is 'losing' it. At least we can listen to his recordings.

Don't Basques have their own language/dialect? Also, don't some use a whistling 'language' in the mountains, to be heard accross the valleys? Or have I got it mixed up with something else.

Don't worry, I won't be picking on your use of English. I save that for those with no excuse. Actually, I find Helven's so-called (and only occasional) 'broken English' rather cute. I'm the one who has to watch that I don't make mistakes, now, to live up to my pedantic claims! To set a good example. Oh, the burden of it all!

I'm an Australian, living in the US for about 8 years now, with my husband, (who was Maltese; raised in England) and our beautiful, about to turn 13, son.

So, if you wanna know about kangaroos, I was raised with them as pets in the sheep farming country of New South Wales.

There you have it . By the way, my favourite LC album is "Various Positions"; it finds you where you really are.

Ciao
~Makera

Hi, Makera

Makera wrote: Don't Basques have their own language/dialect? Also, don't some use a whistling 'language' in the mountains, to be heard accross the valleys? Or have I got it mixed up with something else.

'Whistling language to be heard across the valleys?' Err...no, ma'am. Sorry, ma'am, we use cell phones, like white people do. (Strong Southern accent)
Now, seriously. Yes, we have our own language, the oldest living language in Europe. Yes, even older than Latin! May I suggest this link for further explanations? http://www.eirelink.com/alanking/basquep.htm
The whistling one is still used in La Gomera, Canary Islands, Spain. That small spots in the Atlantic ocean in front of the Moroccan coast. Yes, Morocco. Err... no, not Europe, sligthly below... north Africa... That's it!

Makera wrote: Don't worry, I won't be picking on your use of English. I save that for those with no excuse. .

Please, do, feel free to correct me. I'm learning, I told you.

Makera wrote: I'm an Australian, living in the US for about 8 years now, with my husband, (who was Maltese; raised in England) and our beautiful, about to turn 13, son.
So, if you wanna know about kangaroos, I was raised with them as pets in the sheep farming country of New South Wales..

You, lucky you! Kangaroos and koalas! Cute furry things!!!!
Damn, mom! Why the hell we weren't allowed to own such interesting pets, mom? (Strong Southern accent again)
And a Maltese husband on the top of it! Aaaahh...Corto Maltese...The sexiest and the most romantic sailor ever imagined...

Despite this, glad to meet you.

Oh, Bilbao, you are a Basque… How I love Sarasate’s Caprice Basque… If the Basques are like that music they must be amazing people!

Makera, thanks for finding my terrible English rather cute. I was sooooo happy, having satisfied me that it was possible to understand at least but now I’m doubly happy!

Bilbao, your way to express your “Australian impressions” was so perfect that I was absolutely depressed realizing I had nothing to add!
[Translation (as a safeguard): Bilbao has said very well and I completely agree.]

Well, and I’m from Russia. I live in St.-Petersburg which is called sometimes Northern Venetia owing to a great number of rivers and channels (yet, we have “a little” more land here so we haven’t to provide ourselves with the gondoliers).

Hi Helven~

Wow, and double WOW!! What amazing, exotic company I have found! And what true scholars you and Bilbao both are! I have always been drawn to, and fascinated by, Russia (and so saddened; watching and waiting for the revival.....I always knew was coming). So, is ancient Hellespont your spiritual 'dreamscape' or some buried memory of your soul? [I have to tell you, Helven, I kept wondering why 'Hellespont' sounded so familiar, yet I just couldn't think where it was. Then it dawned on me that it wasn't a 'where' so much as a 'was'!] I still can't remember where I heard of it before.

Now I have to tell you, Helven, I am doubley impressed with your English. Your native tongue is not even one of the Germanic languages! How long have you been practising English?

OK, now here's the 'sticky' part....er...please forgive me if I missed it somewhere, or should know, or whatever ...but what are yours and Bilbao's genders? Now I'd better duck, before you throw something......ouch! that hurt....

I was communicating with a man on the Poetry Forum who had assumed, for quite a while, that I was male too! I don't want to assume anything, you see. Did you know that when you 'assume' you make an 'ASS' out of 'U' and 'ME' .

Helven, you forgot to mention if you liked the "Veni, vidi,vici" joke.
Oh, before I forget .. have you heard, or heard of, Marianne Faithfull?
She has an exceptional voice, and a song called "Broken English"; I think you would love it. It is truly, hauntingly beautiful.

~Makera

What a delight to witness this fascinating congregation of interesting minds sorting out the challenges of cyber-communication and fashioning a warm, inclusive, respectful conversation that is a joy to watch.

It is this generosity of spirit that gives me hope (and pleasure) and a true demonstration of the "sweet natures" Leonard referred to. Bless you, all three!

Takes me back to the good old ng days.

Fondly
Barbara

Hi Makera,

Helven, you forgot to mention if you liked the "Veni, vidi,vici" joke.

I’m sorry! Yes, of course, I liked it very much (as well as the “ass-u-me” one)! And I can add something to keep up this theme.
There’s Latin phrase ducunt volentum fata, nolentem trahunt (I can’t remember, unfortunately, who was the author) which can be translated approximately as “fate leads the one who wants to go and drags the one who doesn’t”. And I must say, it sounds like music for a Russian ear, because “trahunt” is very like a slang word that we use for “f*ck”. So we, Russians, have a kind of esoteric knowledge regarding what the fate does with those who “don’t want”.

Well, now your questions.

I chose “Hellespont” just because I liked to be “Helven from Hellespont”, first of all. And also there is a hint on Russia here. The thing is that the Hellespont is an ancient Greek name for the Dardanelles, the strait between Europe and Asia (in Turkey, between the Aegean Sea and the Sea of Marmora). And Russia, as well, have always been “between” Europe and Asia somehow (it’s both of them and the later for the most part geographically but “between the cultures”).
[And also ……I’ll confess ……..I was ashamed of my English and didn’t want to disgrace my sweet Russia … ]

And my English practice…

As our Pushkin wrote,

We all meandered through our schooling
Haphazard; so, to God be thanks,
It’s easy, without too much fooling,
To pass for cultured in our ranks.

(Translation by Ch. H. Johnston)

I learnt English being a school-girl [I’m a woman, Makera, and don’t be afraid, I won’t throw! What for? - I won’t be able to throw far enough… ] and then a University student … But as English has never been my speciality and I have always been too lazy I’m still far from perfection . And also I had no practice in writing/speaking (I mean real practice, of course, but not school one).

So, it was my little story.

…And I’ve never heard of Marianne Faithfull, unfortunately.

Helven

Hi Barbara,

Oh, thank you very much!
…And what a brilliant formulation!

But I’m afraid, I don’t quite follow you when you write about “ng days”. Would you explain me, please, what does it mean?

Helven