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Hi Jason,

Diane wrote:

Everybody requires sufficient love for who they are, from their parents ideally, but from many different possible sources, before they have 'had enough' to feel independent and secure. Many people, maybe up to two thirds, have never had 'enough' genuine love. That means that many people are partly looking for their love partners to love them as their parents never did. There is nothing 'wrong' with this as such, but it does make the whole issue feel more difficult. This is how it is, stated plainly and without all the jargon. Also, if our original relationships went badly, there is a lot of fear attached to revealing the real self we are to anyone. So this makes it even more difficult to get that love. And then there is the factor that we may get attracted to people who have similar problems to ourselves. All this can make the whole issue of love seem very confusing.



honestly, diane... this about sums it up. if the lack of attention from my mother meant something towards how i felt about love and relationships, this explains it. not enough genuine love. my father played the role of both parents for several years, and that's more than i can ever ask for, but who knows if the absence of my mother made it any different. i had one lousy relationship, and it went badly for sure, so what you said also could explain a lot of things. and i don't discard this theory at all. i can't disregard it because it's very valid. i'm no stranger to studying psychology myself. i know this is right out of the playbook, but that doesn't bother me. if it's true then it's true. i won't disregard it as jargon. and perhaps i am attracted to girls with similar problems. you've heard several accounts so far! and i've got more, too.

I'm glad you can see that this is the basic way things go, and how things might have gone wrong for you. Psychology is quite simple, really.

Your father did a great job as a single parent, and men can be as nurturing as women, of course. But your early example of a relationship with a woman (i.e. your Mother) was a bad one, so maybe it would help you if you could develop a close in-person relationship with a female parent figure. I can't think of a better example than a good counsellor, who will allow you to depend upon her and enable you to get the care and attention you missed. Just bear the idea in mind, if things don't improve for you.

don't know how much of a good son i am really. i lied to my mother every time i spoke to her. our telephone relationship was based on lies. she became a holy roly, a jesus freak, a hardcore christian... and whenever we spoke on the phone i never told her about any of the bad grades i'd get in school, about how many times i upset my dad and got in trouble, never told her about how i wasn't sorry that she was gone, because i never had a strong feeling towards her after so many years, and most importantly, the biggest lie, was that when she asked me if i prayed every night, i told her that i did, when in fact every night i questioned the very existence of god and the validity of christianity as well as organized religion all together. of course, i never told either of my parents about first trying pot, about my dirty thoughts, and about the music that i liked to listen to. my dad found out about all of it sooner or later, but my mother is in the dark. completely. good son?

By 'good son', I mean good person in your own right. I don't mean 'good' for being what she wanted you to be, or for doing things for her.

Parents do not deserve loyalty just by virtue of their being parents. It is sad that your Mother didn't get the love she deserved to overcome her own problems, so that she was able to keep you as a son, and love you for who you are. But her problems are not your problems, they are hers. You know this, and that is good. I don't think a lot of teenagers tell their parents about their sexual encounters or other things that might be up for disapproval, although some do. It is natural for teenagers to start to become independent and an ideal parent should be there when needed for support and guidance, but not try to 'control' their children, (unless they are doing something dangerous of course).

I understand what you say about not missing your mother or wishing she had stayed around. I understand entirely what you mean about it being better that she was out of your life than in it. But at the age you were when she left you wouldn't have been able to rationalise things the way you can now. You would have had a bond with her, which was broken. Also, children require a lot of care up to the age of six, and having an insecure mother might have meant you didn't get the attention you required back then. Nobody is a perfect parent and blame attribution is not the point. If you do have blocked grief from early childhood, it would help you immensely for your future relationships if you can resolve it (i.e. feel it, and also get what you didn't get at the time, which is an empathic listener). Anyway, again, I don't know whether this applies to you, I only guess that it might.

I'll read the latest part of your story next time. I'm still catching up. Blimey, it's another long one I see. Are you trying to rival the "muffins" thread, which I see Byron has brought back to life ?

Love,

Diane

hahahaha. no no, i don't think i could rival that thread. i try not to post anything more if no one has responded. last night i was going to post some more, but you or anyone else did not respond, so i did not. same as tonight. i can't get more into the story. but the other night i responded to your message, then had time to write more story. i figured that'd about do you in. hahahaha.

as far as counselling goes, i think you are doing just fine. i don't have time to see some psychiatrist really. there are things i've learned on my own as far as reasons why i may be this way or that way or think this way or that. as i have said, i'm no stranger to the study of psychology. but anyway, take your time, get through the next part of the story, and we'll continue later. perhaps tomorrow.

as far as counselling goes, i think you are doing just fine. i don't have time to see some psychiatrist really. there are things i've learned on my own as far as reasons why i may be this way or that way or think this way or that. as i have said, i'm no stranger to the study of psychology.

The thing is, Jason, if our original relationship went badly, the best answer is to 'do it again'. This means having a healthy relationship with another parent figure. Whilst I know some things about psychology from my own learning and my own former therapist, and can advise you, there is no way you can have the type of contact you need from an internet discussion board, or in writing in any way. It feels much safer that way, and, like you, I tried for years to solve my own problems, on my own, by learning, thinking and reading. But nothing really changed for me until I got myself a therapist. I don't think you 'need' therapy. I simply think you'd benefit from it. So much goes on in our minds subconsciously, and you only begin to explore that in an actual, private relationship with someone you trust. There is no short cut. That's my opinion anyway. My former therapist did believe that it is possible to work through your difficulties, with your partner, in a romantic relationship. It is quite a bit harder than with a therapist, for the reasons I've already mentioned, but not impossible. I'm not trying to pressurise you into getting therapy; I just want you to understand the value of it, should you continue to find love relationships to be so frustrating.

I just read through the latest part of your story. It sounds like you tried to make a real connection with Daniela. I notice that all your love interests so far have rather exotic names .

she was intimidated by my mysteriousness.

Are you an aloof and solitary kind of person? It could be that deep down you are not even sure you want a relationship, and you are getting attracted to girls who have the same ambivalence. This is quite a common scenario. That might be because you are actually very afraid of getting close to someone, because it hurt you a lot the first time around, even though you don't really remember much about how painful it was when your mother wasn't there for you (either emotionally, or, then, physically). It's just a thought. And, again, if this rings any bells, there is only really one way to sort it out, and writing about it on here is not that way. Having a real, safe, relationship with someone where you can explore any such fears is the way. Ooops, did I already mention that ?

I won't be around again until after the weekend, but please continue with your story and I'll catch up in time.

Love,

Diane

"do it again" is what i've been trying to do for several years now. anyway, shall i get back to my story?

so where was i? oh yes, daniela...

well... now daniela and i had been talking regularly, not just on the internet every night, but at school as well. i wound up letting her borrow some poetry books as well, like i had with rachel and renata. there are many things I don’t remember about my friendship with daniela because it didn’t seem to last all that long. I know she did not graduate from that school, so she must have left or took her test to graduate early after the first semester of our senior year. It’s sad because I really liked her and wish to have remembered a lot more about her. But the biggest thing that happened between us revolved around a jewish holiday that I don’t even remember. I mean, I don’t remember what holiday it was exactly. Probably yom kippur or something. As I had mentioned before, she was from a very strict jewish family. my family wanted to go to temple that night and so I was dragged along as well. I invited her to come with me because there were two other girls I went to school with (one was a junior though) that went to the same temple. So we kind of made a date of it. Daniela said she’d come with me.

I remember her being late. I told her to come to my house and we’d all leave together. But she hadn’t arrived and my parents wanted to get down there because services were starting soon and I told them she’d be there. They wanted me to come but I said I’d wait behind for her and that I’d go with her once she got there. So they finally agreed. She called my house from her cell phone apologizing for being late, but I told her it was okay, that my family left already and I’d go with her. So she finally got to my house, and it was kind of a relief that I didn’t have to go through introducing her to my family formally like I had done with maegen, as well as with Rachel when she came to my aunt’s wedding with me. she looked really nice. I can’t remember exactly what she was wearing, but I remember that it was baby blue… and that she had a shawl of some sort. A shawl or scarf I guess. Anyway… we went there, services had started already, we found my parents and sat with them. I remember nudging her a few times and joking while the canter was speaking because I can never keep a straight face during any kind of religious ceremony. I’d do my best Hebrew impersonations and all that, pretended that I knew the words to all the songs. I knew “hava nagila,” but that’s about it. Hahaha. Those are the only lyrics to the song! “hava nagila, hava nagila…” hahaha.

During one song I remember the canter asked everyone to stand and put their arms around the people next to them. So on my left I had my arm around the waist of my stepmother and on the right I had my arm around the waist of daniela. First I was quite embarrassed about it since I’m not a touchy-feely kinda guy. Then I was like, “whatever, here goes nothing.” So I did it and she kind of looked at me and smiled, like “don’t get any ideas.” Hahaha. It was a playful look, not some kind of “don’t you dare” look. Anyway, I remember after services there was food served and everything and that’s where my parents formally met her and we talked with the other people we knew from school. It was a nice day. I had a great time with her. After that day… I remember nothing. what I do recall, but only slightly, is how I told her that I really liked her, how I threw caution to the wind and decided to just tell her how I felt, unlike how I dealt with renata and other girls in the past. However, as I said before, she was very insecure about herself and had no self-esteem whatsoever. I told her she was beautiful, but she tried to convince me that she wasn’t. I could have sworn that we had several conversations about it and that I had tried to help her but I’m not too sure now. I’m not sure only because I know that I WANTED to help her, but can’t remember for sure if we actually talked about it all that much as I thought we did. But I know that it went nowhere. There was no convincing her. I never really spoke to her much after she left the school. Maybe here and there on the internet, but that was only because she was hardly online much. A few years later I saw her in my store. She came in with some guy. I was up at the register and they went to get some ice cream. We did the usual, “it’s good to see you! How have you been!?” but that was it. Since then I have never seen or spoken to her, and it’s been a good couple of years now. God… it seems like just the other day I was at school, but I graduated 4 years ago. Fuck.

There were quite a few poems I wrote about daniela. Here is one… and the title is pretty obvious:

Daniela

Why am I so lonely?
Who put this hole here?
I’m scraping the bottom, trying to find something
To fill this thing I call myself
Why do you look lonely?
Oh, you’ve got a hole, too
Do you ever feel that maybe this is all,
That you’ve reached the end of yourself?

The ones at home change faces
The ones at home change places
And where I belong is at the end of a song
A stranger in my own house

And I got friends, we all got friends
Who create a world when another one ends
But none who can hold me and none who have told me
That they believe in me

Why am I so lonely?
Who put this hole here?
I do not feel so empty, because this is reality
It’s normalcy, it’s what I am
Why do you look so lonely?
Oh, you’ve got a hole, too

Bu I, I love you
I love you
This is the end, my only friend, the end


Hmm… I thought I had more to that one, but that was it. Haha. Notice the doors rip-off at the end. Here’s another, one that I turned into a song actually:

We Could Love Each Other

Your eyes hang low with heavy thoughts of sleep, my dear
I’ve got a safe place in my arms for you to keep
I see you are missing love, love’s in a steady decline
I can fill up your emptiness and you could fill up mine, babe

We could love each other
We could find ourselves
We could love each other
And break our lonely shells

Baby, you’re beautiful like the teenage tragedy
Because it’s love so strong that we can’t grasp sanity
It has not been long, dear, but I believe I know you
And if you ask me, as you wish it, I will show you
My love

And we could love each other
We could find ourselves
We could love each other, baby
We need to break our shells

And if we can’t love each other
Our loneliness doesn’t let us have much else
If one of us can’t believe in the other
Then we just wind up breaking ourselves

Don’t cry, my dear
Don’t cry, don’t cry

We are children, we are lovers
We are what we are in the space
I can see the world, I can be the world
But all that matters is your face

And where to trust your place…
Is with me

We could love each other
We could make ourselves
We could love each other
And break our lonely shells


Another attempt at a relationship gone down the drain. The rest of the year there was nothing. I remember beginning to think I could try to get with one of the many female friends of mine, but I didn’t have any strong inclinations to do so. It was just a thought. though during that year I remember a friend of mine telling me he knew that this one girl had a crush on me. I was surprised. I didn’t think any girl would have any kind of crush on me. I didn’t believe it, but after a few things happened I did believe it. This girl… I remember her from the previous year. she had long brown hair, never combed, always frizzy and messed up, had bad acne, and seemed so droll and boring. She was somewhat nerdy. However, in our senior year she cut her hair short, dyed it pitch black, started wearing all black, began listening to heavy rock music, started smoking cigarettes, and covered up her acne with a lot of foundation. She didn’t wear a lot of makeup, just enough to cover up her acne. No lipstick or eye shadow or eyeliner or anything like that.

One day she offered to give me a ride home from school and I said okay. I had a nine inch nails cd in my cd player that I used to listen to on the bus, and she wanted to listen to it in her car. One time we snuck behind one of the bungalows between classes to have a smoke. But a teacher came out and said she smelled it coming through the air conditioning vent, which was right where we were standing. I was kind of embarrassed because all the teachers there liked me and I felt like I was betraying this teacher for doing something that was illegal on that campus. This girl (I forget her name) had a friend that worked with me at the time, too. Sometimes she’d come in and see her, and I’d be there. It all seemed too obvious to me, so I believed my friend that she had some kind of crush on me. I believed this very much one night when she came to pick up her friend after work to give her a ride home. She came with this guy, a friend of hers. Then she offered to give me a ride, too. I told her sure, why not, since I lived less than a minute away. But she drove nearly 20-30 miles just to take her friend home, then took the male friend home, and I was in the car with her by myself. I was almost scared. But she didn’t do anything. She dropped me off at home and that was that. I don’t know whatever happened to her, but we never got it on or anything like that. I was never that attracted to her. But I felt bad the whole time because I knew what it was like to want someone that doesn’t want you.

That year ended with our grad night at Disneyland. We were there all night into the morning. When we got back to campus we did a rehearsal for the graduation ceremony. It was funny. Everyone was sooo tired and out of it. I got there early with some friends before leaving for Disneyland and we all brought water guns, a box of sugar, and all kinds of other stuff to totally thrash the outside of the classroom that was occupied by one of the teachers we did not like very much. We shot up the building with sugar water, then laid out a trail of sugar for ants. This teacher HATED ants. We also brought a small, battery-operated fan to blow a bag of powdered sugar into the air conditioning vent so that when it was next turned on there would be powdered sugar flying into the room. Hahahaha. It was quite fun, but in retrospect it just seemed like a waste of time. It really was pointless, but it gave us all this feeling of redemption for all the grief he caused us with his neo-christian/free-thinking/idealistic liberalism/hyper politically correctiveness in the classroom. Anyway… I remember that most of that night I had hoped that some girl—any girl!—would come out and confess her love for me and that I’d finally be with somebody my last year in high school. It never happened. I wasn’t that much disappointed, because I didn’t expect it to happen, I just thought it was a possibility and was hoping it would happen. Hahaha. Then I figured, “I still got graduation day!” but nothing. that day sucked. I saw all my friends and classmates before the ceremony, and it was nice, but it was awkward. After the ceremony that morning my parents wanted to take me out to breakfast. They rushed me to leave and I never got to say goodbye to any of my friends. Maybe one, perhaps two, but it was depressing and I regret leaving so early. I got pictures with some teachers, but that was about it. I didn’t have much fun after that. In fact, a few days after graduation I sat in my room and cried. I realized right then and there that I had spent 12 years making friends, losing friends, trying to go after girls and failing miserably, meeting new people, having so much fun sometimes with certain people and in certain classes, and it was all over, and I’d never see 90% of these people ever again in my entire life. It’s been 4 years now and it’s still all true. It’s sickening when you think about it. The most important years of a person’s life, spent institutionalized within the educational system… and then it all seems like a waste. If school was meant to be only a strict standard of education, then let it be that. But no… there’s more to school than education, but at the end of it all, you have nothing to show for it than the education that you received. That’s how I felt about it all. That EVERYTHING except for the classes I took meant NOTHING in the end.

Well, upon my first semester as a full-fledged college student there was an interesting interaction I had with someone from my past. And that story comes next...

Hi again Jason,

This really is turning into an epic!

I can feel your frustration that Daniela didn't want to join you in your loneliness so that you could both become less lonely. Your poems are very sad. Yes, I notice your Doors rip off. It's quite a hopeless song, "The End" but then, as someone once pointed out to me, all our relationships end sadly, or will one day. The words, "this is the end, beautiful friend, the end" are pretty much stating things as they are sometimes, and I like them a lot for that reason.

In fact, a few days after graduation I sat in my room and cried. I realized right then and there that I had spent 12 years making friends, losing friends, trying to go after girls and failing miserably, meeting new people, having so much fun sometimes with certain people and in certain classes, and it was all over, and I’d never see 90% of these people ever again in my entire life

.

I remember how sad I was to leave friends from school, and especially from the period of your life you are yet to describe; the college years. Hmmm, I made a tape. Wonder where it is now. It had Billy Joel's "I've loved these days" on it, plus lots of other songs I'm sure I'd remember if I had a memory half as good as yours. Moving on is always bitter-sweet, isn't it? Sad.

It’s sickening when you think about it. The most important years of a person’s life, spent institutionalized within the educational system… and then it all seems like a waste. If school was meant to be only a strict standard of education, then let it be that. But no… there’s more to school than education, but at the end of it all, you have nothing to show for it than the education that you received. That’s how I felt about it all. That EVERYTHING except for the classes I took meant NOTHING in the end.

But what about all those fun times you referred to? What about the times you did have? Friendship has value even if it doesn't become a sexual relationship, doesn't it? But I imagine that those who are following your story are now thinking, as I am, "Oh, let him get the girl next time...". You deserve love, Jason.

I hope you have a good day today,

Love,

Diane

Diane wrote:Friendship has value even if it doesn't become a sexual relationship, doesn't it?

i'm not saying that every relationship i had in high school had to be sexual. i don't know where you got that from. i made several friends and had fun with them and now they're gone. nowhere to be seen or heard from, moved on... i've spoken to a few of them since then, and still now, but it's nowhere near the same.

Anyway, as I was talking about, I had an interesting interaction with someone from my past, and I am going to talk about it now. One day during the summer after graduating from high school I got a phone call. It was maegen. At first I had a strange feeling. I was wondering why she had called me, and our entire phone conversation just felt odd to me. we talked a bit about the past and kind of agreed that both of us had matured a bit more and things can be forgiven. The whole time during the conversation I had the though running through my head, “does this mean there’s a possibility of getting back with her?”

Well we didn’t speak very long the first time, but I had this awkward smile on my face the whole time, even though she couldn’t see it. It was partially a nervous smile and partially an “I-knew-you’d-come-crawling-back” kind of smile. I didn’t really know what to make of it all. But I do know that we continued to talk on the phone that summer. It was every few days and it turned into every single day and night, at least when I wasn’t working. After I’d get off work, which was usually around 10:30 at night I would call her and we’d talk into the early morning. Things were getting heavier now. After a while we kind of agreed to start seeing each other again. However, the “seeing” part was out of the question. For some reason she didn’t feel like meeting. She never wanted to get together somewhere. I never understood why. She’d always say, “well school will be starting again, and I’ll see you then.” Now that all the kids from my grade were out of high school they’d all be attending the same community college, including maegen.

I wanted to see her badly, so I had asked her one day if she had any pictures of herself on her computer that she could possibly send my way. And she did. She sent me two pictures. I was so excited to see what she looked like after a couple years. Especially after I heard she had slimmed down and looked incredibly sexy. But when I opened the pictures I was surprised to see that she had sort of ballooned. Now, I understand that this makes me sound like a fucking asshole, and I really have no excuse for this. The first thing I said to her after seeing the pictures was, “what happened?”

When I was dating her she wasn’t that fat. She was perfect. Kind of like a marilyn Monroe figure you could say. Now she was pretty big. Needless to say, what I said to her upset her. After that, for sure she was feeling very apprehensive about meeting up. As if I expected this to work out this time, not too long after things began to wind down. Before school finally started we were talking on the phone and she had gone into her spiel again, which reminded me of how it began to end the first time. But it was a bit easier for me to understand this time, that is, if what she said was the truth. She said she had too many problems and didn’t want to include me in them. She was trying to spare me, I guess, but she did not spare me the bleeding heart stuff. She said she had to try to deal with her problems herself and didn’t want any help, not even mine. I asked her if whenever she became acceptant of her situation and figured things out would there be a place for me, and she didn’t give a straight yes or no answer. She said she didn’t know how long it would take for her problems to subside and that she didn’t think I’d be interested in her by that time. I was just like, “whatever.” And that was that.

Then school started. The very first day of school I saw her. She was talking to this girl who I graduated with at the new school. They were sitting together talking, smoking cigarettes (because you can do that on college campus, it was sweet). I walked up behind them. The other girl, Jennifer, saw me and kept looking at me, trying to get maegen to turn around by diverting her eyes on me all the time. But maegen just knew it was me and didn’t turn around. She finally did though, and we said hi to each other, but this was as the bell was ringing. There’s a bell on every hour. I sat down with her after Jennifer left for class. We talked briefly, and I don’t really remember what about. But I remember seeing sean, too. He didn’t see us, but he crossed right in front of us to get to his next class. He later told me that he saw us but wanted to leave me alone with her. I think maegen had actually called his name out but he didn’t respond. Well, suffice it to say that I was very apologetic the whole time but she just didn’t want anything to do with me.

I believe it was that same day I went back after my classes to visit some of my old high school teachers, since it was all on the same campus and everything. Well, I had seen Jennifer there, too. Right near the high school campus was this fairly big hill, and atop the hill was a parking lot. She was up there waiting for her mom to pick her up, and I can’t remember if maegen was with her or not. I do remember maegen’s mom pulling up in the parking lot, but see, it sounds strange that her mom would be there and not her. What I remember is that Jennifer and I were talking and maegen’s mom pulled up and Jennifer went out to talk to her mom. Maegen and Jennifer were friends in grade school and all that, so Jennifer knew maegen’s mom. I was sitting there by myself smoking a cigarette and Jennifer had one, too, but when she went up to the car she hid her hand behind her back. Jennifer came back to me and was telling me that maegen’s mom was scolding her for smoking. Even though maegen’s mom smoked, too. Anyway… I remember this happening but I can’t remember where maegen was. I don’t know if her mom came to pick her up or to drop her off or something. I think Jennifer told me that maegen’s mom recognized me. I know that her mom remembered me because when maegen and I were talking during the summer she told me that one time her mom asked her about me, like, “whatever happened to the guy Jason? He was such a nice kid, I really liked him.” I was unlike every other guy maegen had been with. I knew it, maegen knew it, and apparently her mom did, too.

Anyway, I saw maegen again a few days later. She was walking by herself and I was behind her. Just happened by pure chance. I thought I’d catch up with her and talk to her. But before I could someone stopped her to talk to her. They were talking for a while and then I finally stopped with them. They kept talking, then the bell rang, and maegen said bye to her friend and then walked away. I thought to myself, “I’m standing right here waiting for her and then she just walked away. What the fuck?” she didn’t look at me, acknowledge me, or say a damn thing. She just walked away. I went after her saying her name. She finally stopped and turned around and said, “hi.” I was like, “why’d you just walk away? I was standing right there.” She said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t see you. I really have to get to class.” I said, “hang on, can we talk at all?” she had said somewhere in that short conversation that she thought I looked good. It threw me off guard a bit, but I didn’t care about that. I just wanted to talk to her. She said we could talk later and all I could do was comply. Then she left. Come to think of it, I think when we spoke on the phone after that meeting that she told me about her “problem” spiel. I mentioned it up here earlier, but I’m pretty sure that this is when she gave it to me.

Anyway, after the phone conversation where she pretty much ended it… again… I didn’t see her anymore in school. I had heard later that she dropped out and moved in with some girlfriend. Yes, girlfriend. No, not friend. Girlfriend. They moved away, somewhere up north in California I think, but that was it. Sometime within my last year in college I saw her one more time. She came back to school I guess, and I saw her near the bookstore. I was going in there to get some books for class and I saw her. Usually outside the bookstore they sometimes set up tables where representatives from school organizations and clubs allow new members to sign up and things like that. Well, she was sitting at one of the tables. It looked like she gained even more weight, and she even cut all of her hair off. It was very, very short. It used to be very long. blah. And she wore this strange sash or something around her head like a bandana. She looked very plain. I think she wore a gray sweater. Not the little goth girl I remembered from a few years ago. I didn’t say anything to her and she never even saw me. that was the last time I ever saw her. I have no idea what she’s doing now and I don’t know anyone who would know either.

Well, after graduating in june of 2002, I went through maegen again before the next semester was over, which was around November or December. Then in January of 2003, this girl came into my store one day. She was standing in my line, and I am usually aware of everyone in the store and in my line and all that. Perhaps I was preoccupied with a particular customer at my register, but suddenly I saw this face and my mind went blank and I just stared at this girl in wild amazement because I thought she was perfect. I mean, she was no supermodel, no bathing beauty, no big-breasted, skinny California girl. It was the face of this girl that looked like she’d be a perfect match for me, and I could tell just by that initial eye contact. She said hi and handed me this piece of paper. I looked at it and noticed that it was an application. I told her I’d get it to my manager and she said thanks and left. Not too long after—I can’t remember exactly if it was the next day or a few days later—I went in to work again, and normally I go straight to the office to see what’s going on for the day, but this time as I opened the door, I saw that girl sitting in there watching training videos. I was so happy. Angela was going to be working with me and I felt like I was in heaven. I couldn’t wait to go to work every day soon thereafter.

Hi Jason,

I'm not saying that every relationship i had in high school had to be sexual. i don't know where you got that from. i made several friends and had fun with them and now they're gone. nowhere to be seen or heard from, moved on... i've spoken to a few of them since then, and still now, but it's nowhere near the same.

Oh, I see. I thought you’d meant that because you’d not got a girlfriend from school that it had all been a waste of time...

“whatever happened to the guy Jason? He was such a nice kid, I really liked him.” I was unlike every other guy maegen had been with. I knew it, maegen knew it, and apparently her mom did, too.

But Maegen didn’t really want to have a relationship with you, last time, or this time, did she ?

So, the lovely young girl who walked into your shop was Angela of the poem you began this thread with?

You have a knack for story-telling and leaving things in suspense. Keep going…

Love,

Diane

PS I'll be away for a week. Look forward to catching up when I return.

yes, the girl was angela. the one i wrote this song about... this "poem b" here, the reason you asked me to talk about all of these failed experiences. there isn't much to say i guess since i already said quite a bit about her way earlier in this thread.

i remember being very excited that she was working at my store. it was like god gave me a gift. but that motherfucker teased me the whole time and probably laughed at me. suffice it to say she worked at my store for about six months. between january and june or so. i found out what she liked and listened to and read and enjoyed and i felt very strongly for her. she was my type of girl and that was all there was to it. she was very different though from every other girl i have previously mentioned. very different. besides being 5 years older than me, there were just things that made her seem more of a woman than a girl. i had just turned 19 in january of 2003 and she was 24. she read a lot of books, kept to herself, had a sick sense of humor, but never showed it very much. she was very smart, very mature, yet seemed so fragile and simple on the surface.

the gist of it is this: after quite some time of being totally taken by this woman, i finally decided i'd ask her out. i had never really done this before. this would be the first time for me, at least doing it face to face. one night i was being taken home by one of my co-workers, patrick, and angela asked him for a ride as well because we were all closing together. he said sure and so he took her home first. i was in the back seat, and when she got out of the car, i got out as well, to go up and sit in the front, but before i did that i said, "angela." she turned around. "i was wondering maybe if you'd like to go out sometime."

she turned me down, but it was understandable. see, here's the deal: she came out to santa clarita (where i live in southern california) to live with her grandparents. she originally came from san diego, which is where most of her family lives. funny story, though... her cousins live out here, too. i actually went to high school with them. one of them was in my grade and was friends with him for some time. his older sister was a grade above us but i had a class with her before. funny, ain't it? i think that was one thing that turned her off was the fact that i was the same age as her younger cousin. anyway... she came out here to escape her boyfriend. she had been with this guy for about 4 years and their life together was completely fucked up. he was abusive with drugs and alcohol, and with her. the two of them were immersed in the drug world down there, and she was never shy with me about that subject, though when she spoke about it she was very regretful. when she spoke about her EX-boyfriend, it made me nearly break down in tears because of the things he'd do. i could NEVER imagine someone doing such terrible things to this beautiful girl that i thought was the best thing ever. it tore me up inside. her reasoning for not wanting to go out with me were simple. she said she didn't like going out and would rather stay around town with her family. i understood it very much. i know about women who have been victims of abuse, and i know how very, very difficult (practically impossible) it is to turn around and trust any other male again. you can quote me when i say that i consider spousal abuse and domestic violence to be the WORST thing to EVER happen to somebody. THE WORST. i don't know that he was more violent with her than he was verbally abusive, but still, it can be just as bad, especially when he abused himself so much that it hurt her. the pain that it causes is nearly impossible to forget, because the LAST person you expect to hurt you is the one you love the most, and the one that you believe so deeply loves you back the most. not even death or murder of a loved one can match this kind of scarring.

so, i was denied, but it had all the reasonable merit, unlike every other time i was denied. i just now found an e-mail exchange between angela and myself that i had saved. i wrote this e-mail to her the day after i asked her out. here is my letter:

From: TERATOGEN@sbcglobal.net
To: **********
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 03:13:21 -0500

hey, angela. i know you're out of town at the moment, but when you get back i hope you get a chance to read this, even if you don't reply.

but i kind of wanted to apologize about the other night... asking you out. heh. i don't know what i was thinking... i mean, i figured... i dunno. i don't like to go out much myself either. i'm an introvert. i like quiet things, too, much more than social things, that's for sure! perhaps i should have said something else instead *shrugs shoulders*.

you told me about your ex-boyfriend, and that is such a terrible thing, what he did to himself, and to you. i cannot imagine being in your position. i know it did not happen that long ago and it must have been very, very difficult for you. so, again, if you would rather not hang out or something, i would understand. i was only thinking of dinner, or hanging out at a bookstore, maybe just talking or something... i mean, i hate to tell you over an e-mail this way, but i wanted to get it out sooner than later. you are very attractive in every sense, and i wanted to get to know you more. though, i place your needs above mine, and if you need nothing to do with boys at the moment, i understand. i will not push it any farther. anyway, it took me all night to ask you out (hahaha), so it's easier this way, even though i feel childish and ridiculous conveying it through the internet.

if i don't hear back from you on this, i will inquire about it next week or something.

jason
Teratogen

here was her response:

Subject: Re:
Date: Feb 9 2003 12:40a
To: <TERATOGEN@sbcglobal.net>

hey jason-
yes, you are right, i don't want anything to do with guys. At this point i am "free", now that i am out of a 4 year up and down relationship. and now there are more ups than down.

i chose to move here, from my life, and my love of the city. i choose to be alone. i am grateful that i want it this way, for it has to be, and it only makes the "healing" and growth process that much easier.

i was defenitly more of an extrovert, during my relationship and before. i enjoy being alone and quiet now. the only people i might hang out with for a little bit are my cousins. that is how i like it.
i came up here for more reasons than just the odvious. i have no intentions of making friends, much less a boyfriend. this is my time, now...not my boyfriends'.

i am flattered, really, i am. i would just prefer to have nothing go beyond work. hope you can understand where i am coming from...
a

if you go back and read the lyrics to the song/poem, i wrote "I remember every word you said to me/about not wanting a relationship, not even a friend." i got that straight from this letter she sent me.

anyway, i've got a little bit more about her but i'll get to it next time. in case anyone is interested, here is her myspace page:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... indicate=2

the only problem is that her main picture is not of herself, but of a chicken right now. you can't see her other pictures unless you have a myspace account of your own. it's free to sign up if you want to, but otherwise you can just read about her or whatever. not a single one of the other girls i mentioned before has a myspace. i could scan yearbook pictures of some of them, but they are so old that it doesn't matter anymore. i have pictures of rachel on my computer from about 2 years ago (and later i'll get to that), and also of maegen from when she sent me pictures of her during the summer after high school, which i talked about before. the other girls like daniela and renata are not even in my yearbook. they left school before yearbook pictures were taken of them. sad, huh? i've got pictures of tiffany from junior high, but that was so long ago i don't think it matters. if you want me to scan them or upload them and send them out i guess i can do that. just let me know. anyway, i'll finish with angela next time.

Hi Jason,

I've just read through your latest post here. Sorry to sound a bit negative, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to copy personal emails from someone else into a public place like this. It could be seen as an invasion of privacy. Please do email me pics of the girls you have been talking about. It would be interesting to put names to faces.

i know about women who have been victims of abuse, and i know how very, very difficult (practically impossible) it is to turn around and trust any other male again. you can quote me when i say that i consider spousal abuse and domestic violence to be the WORST thing to EVER happen to somebody. THE WORST. i don't know that he was more violent with her than he was verbally abusive, but still, it can be just as bad, especially when he abused himself so much that it hurt her. the pain that it causes is nearly impossible to forget, because the LAST person you expect to hurt you is the one you love the most, and the one that you believe so deeply loves you back the most. not even death or murder of a loved one can match this kind of scarring.

This all sounds very, very sad. I'm not sure from reading this whether you are relating things that Angela has told you, or speaking from your own experiences, or both. If someone is physically or verbally abusive, they aren't 'loving' the person they are violent/abusive towards, and they don't love themselves, or even like themselves and that is very sad, but the only sane thing to do is get away from such people, and then mend the damage in healthier relationships. Love should feel warm and joyous, not heavy, difficult and scary. It is possible to recover from severe emotional trauma with enough support, and with thorough grieving. It is possible to trust provided you have the experience of being with trustworthy people.

Angela's experiences, like Maegen's, are horrific. But what about your own sadnesses?

Take good care of yourself.

Love,

Diane

i forgot to mention about angela that the reason she came out here was because her family told her, "this is your one and only chance to get away from him." i believe it was new years eve. she was telling me... she took off in the middle of the night while he was sleeping. didn't pack anything. just drove in her pajamas down her to her grandparents' house. it was close to a 5 hour drive. but that's how it all started i gues.

the other thing i was gonna mention about her involved the last few encounters we had. i remember one day at work one of my co-workers had told me that she was leaving. i was confused. i went up and asked her. she seemed a little hesitant about talking about it with me, probably because she knew i liked her and would be upset when i left. but she told me she put in her two weeks and was going back home to san diego. i was saddened and felt destroyed. it was around this time that lou reed was having a show out here in l.a. at the wiltern. she was also a reed fan and said that she was going to the show because she was related to someone that worked there. she was getting in free. i didn't know yet that i was going because sean and i were trying to get tickets. i remember angela telling me she'd get to go backstage and everything. i told her i was jealous and all that. hahaha.

well, lou reed was having a signing the day before the show at the wiltern and sean and i were going to it. i think angela's official last day was the day before the signing. we were allowed to have two things for him to sign for us and i told angela i'd get something signed for her. i downloaded a bunch of pictures of him, put them on a disk, then took it to work and made 8 by 10's of the picture i wanted most and i let her pick the one she wanted. she said she'd be by work to pick it up since this would be taking place after she went back home. well we got there so early, there were only 3 people in front of us. it was awesome. we waited there all day. he didn't show up until 5 minutes before they were gonna let people in. we saw the car pull up and he got out with some people and went in. it was sweet.

a lady came out beforehand and went through the long (yes, very long for lou reed in l.a.) line to get people's names. he was gonna sign every item personally (probably so that people couldn't sell his autograph on e-bay or something). i made sure the woman put "jason" for one and "angela" for the other. so we finally got inside and sean got up to him first. sean told lou reed all these things, about how much he was inspired by him. sean had him sign an 8 by 10 he bought as well as his book of lyrics called "pass thru fire." sean told him he went to both shows in san francisco, which actually were the two consecutive days before the signing. he said, "i just came back this morning from san francisco to be here. i'll be at the wiltern show, too." sean got so emotional he was about to cry. it was in his voice, i could hear it. lou sounded so impressed, especially for the fact that he brought the book of lyrics. sean even told him he loved one of the vocalists that lou had on tour with him, who was actaully antony, from antony and the johnsons. lou said to him, "tell you what... would you like to come backstage and hang out with us tomorrow night?" my eyes widened so big i thought they'd fall out. i can't imagine what sean felt like at that moment. lou said, "go over to this guy here, he's my tour manager. give him your name." i looked at lou and said, "i'm with him!" sean looked over and said, "this is my friend. he's coming to the show with me, is it okay if he comes backstage with me?" and lou very casually looked at me, then looked back at sean and said, "sure." sean shook his hand and said, "thank you so much" and went up to the tour manager (i forget his name) as i went up to lou. i told him thanks for letting me go backstage with sean. i shook his hand. he signed the pictures and said, "wow, these are old." i said, "yeah, i know, but i like 'em." he said, "yeah, i like 'em too." hahahaha. i said thanks again, shook his hand, and went after sean. i put my arm around over his shoulders and said in the most excited voice i'd ever had, "you did it, man!!! i can't believe we got backstage!!!" he said quietly, "keep it down. i don't want people hearing that we got backstage and coming after us." he was tearing up but he held it back long enough not to bawl in front of me. we went back to the car in some parking garage and he called everyone he knew to tell them about this great moment in our lives. then we left.

i wanted to tell angela about how much of a miraculous coincidence it was that i, too, would be going backstage at the lou reed show, but i didn't have a chance. i was on vacation that week because we went to see him play up in wine country up north in cali in saratoga at the mountain winery just two days after the wiltern show. yes, lou reed played at a winery. hahaha. but anyway, i had no chance to tell her because i spent the day and night with sean the day of the signing. the day of the concert lou was getting his hands cemented at the rock walk at the guitar center in hollywood. so we went to that, got a bunch of pictures, saw some people from the signing, saw a drunk guy try to get into the guitar center, puke all over the street and then get arrested, and had a good time. richard lewis, the comedian, gave a little intro speech. it was interesting. we didn't get to go inside guitar center after it was over, only special v.i.p. got to do that i guess. but we headed off to the show right afterwards.

i was hoping to see angela there outside before they let us in but i didn't see her at all. we were near the front of the line but had to wait in a different line once they started letting people in so we could wait for our backstage passes. the tour manager guy (his name was bill, i remember now) was standing there with us waiting for his own sticker. hahaha. we talked to him for a while. he was a cool guy. i kept taking a look around for angela but never saw her. well we got in finally and took our seats. we had phenomenal seats. so good that richard lewis was sitting 3 rows behind us. hahahaha. not too long after sean and i got our seats i saw angela. she came with a couple other people. and, i shit you not, they had seats RIGHT BEHIND US. angela wasn't right behind me, but it was the row behind us and she was a few seats towards the left. sean knew about her because i couldn't stop talking about her, so he told me to go talk to her. i didn't wanna get up before the show when there were so many people around and all that. i really wanted to tell her how i felt about her. i did. i wanted to and i would have. i would have done it. i said to sean, "i'll wait until we go backstage. she'll be there, too. she'll probably be surprised that i'm there."

needleess to say, the show was fucking SUPERB. it was recorded for a live album that came out, called "animal serenade," which i own. i never ever thought i'd be a part of a live album, not to mention be backstage at an event that was recorded for a live album. but sean and i got backstage and most of the band was there except for lou. angela, however, was not there. i remember talking to some band members, seeing everyone else there. i was only 19 at the time but they had free beers back there, so i went up and had a couple. hahaha. nobody checked my i.d. or bugged me about it. sean was surprised that they had alcohol because he told me lou quit drinking. hahahaha. anyway, i remember trying to find the trash can. sean pointed it out to me. he said, "here, i'll show you where it is." and it was underneath this table over by these stairs that led up to the dressing room. i went to throw a bottle away, and lou came down the steps. sean and i were standing RIGHT there when he came down. he saw us, shook our hands and said, "ah, you guys made it. glad to see you here." we hung out, mingled for a bit, we eached talked to him for a little bit. sean got him to sign a copy of the "berlin" album, telling him it was his favorite album. i took a picture of sean and him, then sean took one of me and him. then lou started talking to these young goth girls. his bassist, fernando saunders was being accosted by these really attractive model-type girls and he and lou were joking about them being jailbait. then they said they were gonna go out to some restaurant, so sean and i decided to leave since they were gonna leave anyway. as we were leaving sean saw antony and wanted me to take a picture of sean and him, so i did. we talked about that day for such a long time afterwards.

i finally e-mailed angela after we got back from saratoga a few days later. i told her how i got backstage and everything and that i got a picture signed by lou reed for her. she said that she was told there wasn't going to be any backstage gathering or anything like that. i had really wanted to tell angela that i loved her, or otherwise had very strong feelings about her, but she never made it backstage. she was upset that she was lied to about there not being an afterparty, but a perfect day didn't end so perfectly for me. it was so very, very close, but what i wanted to do i didn't do, and i hated myself for it. i always told myself i'd tell girls how i felt about them and never did it. with angela i wanted it to be different. she was the first girl i asked out face to face and i had the balls to do that, so i wanted to tell her how i felt face to face, but it didn't happen, and i felt like the same old schmuck i had been before because i actually could have told her before the show when she first came in, and i didn't.

i think i did wind up telling her in an e-mail, just to get it off my chest, but it was really pointless. she went back to san diego and i didn't think i'd ever see her again. it had much less of an effect. and i felt defeated. i felt lost, lonely, and defeated for quite some time afterwards. it wasn't until years later that i found her on this myspace place. she had come back down here to visit her grandparents because it was her grandfather's birthday. i saw her at work and talked to her a bit. it made my day. in fact, it made my month. it was just a few minutes but i was smitten all day, and then hated myself for it later. y'know, for a few weeks after she left i cried every time i heard the song "landslide" being played over the speakers at work. she loved that song. but it was during that short moment i told her i still had the picture that lou reed signed that she never got from me. sometime later she gave me her address (but was a bit hesitant to do so) and i sent her the picture in the mail. she thanked me and everything. i haven't heard from her since, but her grandmother comes in my store every so often and i hear about angela from her. she's a nice lady.

lots of ups and downs after angela.... to that stuff next.

...shook his hand, and went after sean. i put my arm around over his shoulders and said in the most excited voice i'd ever had, "you did it, man!!! ....

What an exciting story...! At least you got to meet Lou Reed, and be part of a live album .

y'know, for a few weeks after she left i cried every time i heard the song "landslide" being played over the speakers at work. she loved that song.

Jason, it's sad to read about how your dreams were dashed once again. I just re-read your poem at the start of this thread, and it reads even more poignantly now.

At this rate, the whole forum will be turning out for your wedding some day, when you do finally meet the lucky lady who is deserving of you.

See you again soon,

Love,

Diane

hahahahaha. wedding? hahahahahaha. yeah, and maybe i can get leonard to play.

Jason, sorry, but you are simply not allowed to 'give up' at the age of 22. Got that ?

Love,

Diane

it is not i who has given up; i still believe in love. it is love that does not believe in me.

Yes, I can imagine that it does feel like that to you, and I'm just gonna keep repeating the same thing in different ways, (even if it is 'too obvious/text book' or whatever): It seems that you are attracted to girls who don't really want a relationship with you, and who have had traumatic and unresolved experiences in their pasts. According to what you have said, your mother didn't want a relationship with you, and had unresolved traumatic experiences in her past. So maybe your unconscious mind (which 'picks' the girls you are attracted to) 'recognises' these girls, and tries hard to be with them, and 'make it right this time'. Clearly, what you want and need and deserve is to have a relationship with a girl who does not have unresolved trauma, and who does want to be with you (and put another way: is able to love you, and does love you).

But how will you get the love you want, if you keep getting attracted to the same kinds of girl without being able to 'help' it, like some kind of cruel catch 22? This is essentially the problem you need to solve, as I see it.

Love,

Diane