leonardcohenforum.com

tim, thank u, feels much better, it was my fault indeed

WO- sorry, i did not keep my promise to shut up, but i will, it was my last misdemeanor (i hope

Hey Jm and WO - to learn about the real issues facing the Muslim world etc etc STOP listening to medieval age frustrated losers and their ilk (i.e. Bin Laden and his followers)

I don't know if you've heard of Fareed Zakaria (muslim of east indian origin) - he's the Editor of Newsweek International (sorry its corporate owned ) and has written numerous and erudite articles on global issues. Frequently appears on TV and they say one day he'll be the first Muslim Secretary of State.

Here's a link to various articles by him: he's also written a new book. There are links to 4 articles by him on Arab/Islamic issues on the right in the following link.

http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/Autho ... thorId=381

No, bee I don't think you have answered one question I have asked, but I will still respond to you. Kush, you would like to get some facts straight. Fact: bin Laden is not and never was a member of the Taliban. Fact: the relationship between America and the Taliban has been closer than the relationship between bin Laden and the Taliban. You list off all the atrocities done by the Taliban. The US is responsible for putting the Taliban in power, not bin Laden. America gave $5 billion dollars to the Taliban and supported them up until the late 90's even when they were quite aware of what the Taliban was doing to women and how they were massacring the country. Why did they do this? Have you ever heard of Unical? It is a Texas oil company that was fighting with a South American oil company named Bridas to build an oil pipeline in Afghanistan. Unical would often fly members of the Taliban to the states to try and persuade them to deal their company. Did you know this? Bee, don't call me a schmuck. I am always talking about religion. I am never talking about politics. Bee, you also said that since Saudi Arabia has the most oil in the world, the US is then under their control. This is another point that is absolutely absurd. America is the world's lone superpower. No one else is even close in military power. If the Saudi royal family broke their truce with America, the US would invade that country within the year. Look at what an awful government Saudi Arabia is. It is the US that is allies with that country, not the terrible bin Laden. Bee, please don't give me a lecture on African imperialism, I know all about it. I know who did that, I know who continues this today. Bee, you said it is hard for you to understand my anti-American stand. That is like saying to a Jew, it is hard to understand why they hate Nazi Germany. The Holocaust lasted 10 years. The slave trade lasted 300. You ask me how I can compare Bush and Clinton to bin Laden. For 13 years I was unable to send food to my starving brothers and sisters. That is how I can compare. It was US sanctions that destroyed that country. US planes didn't bomb enemy locations, they bombed water facilities and power supplies. You think America is a great country. Maybe you do not know any of it's history then. Nat Turner-dead. Marcus Garvey-dead. Martin Luther King-dead. JFK-dead. Malcolm X says: "No, I'm not an American. I'm one of the 22 million people who are the victims of Americanism. One of the 22 million black people who are the victims of democracy, nothing but disguised hypocrisy. So, I'm not standing here speaking to you as an American, or a patriot, or a flag-saluter, or a flag-waver-no, not I. I'm speaking as a victim of this American system. And I see America through the eyes of the victim. I don't see any American dream; I see an American nightmare." Malcolm X-dead. Donovan Jackson a 16 year old teen in California gets pulled-over and hand-cuffed. 3 cops beat him and slam his head into the windshield. This is recorded. The case goes to court. The case gets dismissed. Just 2 years ago this happened. What about Abner Louima, the Haitian immigrant? He gets arrested and beat up in a patrol car by NYC cops. Then they take him to the station, bring him into a bathroom and shove a broomstick up his ass, tearing his intestines. The case goes to court. The case gets dismissed. Or what about in the 80's when the CIA funded Nicaraguan rebels and allowed them to sell drugs in American ghettoes. Gil-Scott Heron-"Imagine your nightmares of my sneaking into a veiled, satin bedroom and attacking your wife, mother and daughter at once, ripping open their bowels, sexually like a wish-bone. Imagine that and magnify it a million times until you realize that the blindness has been stripped from my eyes, and I realize that slavery was no smiling, happy party....I will not forget at Yale or Harvard or Princeton or in hell because you are on my mind." I do not know of the Soviet slaughters you speak of, but I do know that if the US did help you, it was not out of compassion, it was because there must have been some kind of financial benefit from doing what they did. Now, we can go on comparing atrocities if you want. I can document how the US funded the Suharto regime in Indonesia, or how they murdered Patrice Lumumba in the Congo to install Moise Tshombe, or Balaguer in the Dominican Republic, or Vietnam, or Grenada. I can go into how US coorporations go around the world and make slaves out of children and women, giving them hard labor jobs for no pay, installing ruthless dictators to make sure the people don't rise up. Or we could talk about how 6 million children under the age of 5 die every year because of malnutrition and its related diseases. A holocaust of the world's children takes place every year-because of hunger. There is enough food in storage today to feed all the people in the world. The reality is that the owners and executives who control food production have an interest in keeping up prices-and therefore profits. That means limiting the amount of food for sale. When there's too much food for sale, prices and profits fall. Food coorporations convince governments to destroy surplus food if necessary to prop up prices. As Bertolt Brecht wrote: "Famines do not simply occur-they are organized by the grain trade." But instead I think it would be better to talk about how to change things for the better. But you can't do this if you are arrogant or only consider certain violence as evil and other violence as justifiable. Again the final point is that America is the most powerful force in the world. As power is evil, so America is the most evil. All through history people deny the idea of peace because they say if you don't have this evil, than you would have a worse evil. This is a flawed way of thinking. Accepting an injustice is commiting an injustice. Gandhi was more powerful than Hitler, Stalin, and Mussoulini combined. Jesus is more powerful than all governments that ever existed combined. I will take on Hitler, and I will take on Saddam, and I will take on Bush, and if Osama ever came to power I would take him on. But I will fight in my own way. When people learn to refuse to be governed, governments will cease to exist. If we refuse evil, no matter what the consequences, than evil cannot touch us. They can take life, but that is all. Mock me again if you like, but there is only one way out of the hell of war, and that is to follow this command: "When your enemy slaps you on the right cheek, offer him also your left."

Vesuvius, hello, you really ought to get your quotes accurate and try for a deeper understanding of things that are written (not shouted) at these forums. Perhaps you misunderstand because english is not your first language or perhaps you simply like to raise a ruckus.
I do not sign off a post with "Best regards" I simply say regards or more often cheers. It is simply a formal way of saying I write to you with respect even if I disagree with your views. Personally, I hold no malice toward anyone, especially writing at a website where I do not meet anyone personally anyway. You presume too much as to how I think or feel.

From the Oxford Dictionary a couple of definitions.

Bigot, n- One who holds irrespective of reason & attaches disproportionate weight to some creed or view.- My views are based on much research, thinking, observation and reasoning. Also my views are malleable and they may change with time, new information or a change in understanding.

Patronise,v t- Act as a patron towards, support encourage, (person,practice) treat condescendingly.- I think it is accurate to say that the way bee adressed me in a particular post was written in that manner. If you read that post adressed to me you will see what I mean. Bee does not take my viewpoint seriously (unreal) while praising me for being a "kindly" person. Furthermore I see by bee's response that she understands I hold no ill feeling toward her (or anyone else here) and I am simply commenting on her ideas/viewpoint.

Pontificate? I do not assume the role of a pope nor do I assume airs of infallibility. I do however feel strongly and confident of my views but as I mentioned before I am always open to changing them. This may not be apparent by text on a computer screen so you will have to take my word for that.

Silly, silly owl? Yes, but not for the reasons you suggest. I was silly for entering in this discussion which is a can of worms and is likely to go nowhere via internet discussions anyway.

Regards, (that is respectfully yours) WittyOwl.

Vesuvius wrote:Ciao Epur!
Are you Byron?
I asked Byron why he says "Regards" after he finishes insulting people.
Vesuvius
P.S. Have you decided what age you are?

Hey Ves- I thought you asked Owl about "regards." Besides, I was only being silly...
My bowling average is 176.

I'm no more 'comfortable' with one list of atrocities than I am the other, or another still. I'm appalled and heartbroken by all of them. I think the point is well made that it is extremely difficult to compare an ancient society with a relatively 'brand new' one. What some of the olde and ancients have done in the last 75 years is horrific. However, were the world to end today, this would be considered the 'end game.' Looking at the United States' behaviour and record 'on the board' in the 'beginning game' ~ what has already been done/committed right out of the gate ~ what could one expect by the time our society has survived as many years as the others.

It reminds me of the question posed by the book Lord of the Flies; is man inherently good or evil? The records of those cited ~ to date ~ could be an argument on behalf of the premise of Christianity. However, what about those societies [Austria, Laos, and others] who abide peacefully in their/the world?

As I read these lists compiled by those who have researched, or become aware through other means, none bring anything but grief to my spirit and soul. Perhaps, the idea of things being done "in 'my' name" brings additional anger ~ as I do not condone [as the government and/or perpetrators obviously have, what I have seen/read about happening in my own country, that is barely over 200 years old. Not everyone makes a distinction between what governments, their agents, and those who are implicitly sanctioned by both, do; and what the people of goodwill, within those countries, do.

Rome fell. Given the same pattern, so will the U.S. Then, how will 'we' be justifying our 'greatness'?

~ Elizabeth

Hi all, here it is 2am and I have just arrived home after performing most of the evening for many people at a wedding reception. Now I am not at all religious but the people at this wedding reception were religious and I was happy and inspired to help make their event a joyous one as did my musical companions. After the reception my singing partner and I, both very hungry, shoveled down a 2nd rate pizza at the only pub left open where the DJ music was deafening and the patrons were all very young and very drunk. So what is the point of this anecdote? Beats me, but maybe it demonstrates my enthusiasm for entertaining people regardless of their beliefs. If I can help to make their celebration a fine event through entertainment then I am happy to do so even though I might like to try and change dogmatic viewpoints through discussion.
I have no wish to be a Muslim or a Christian (though I was raised as one) or a Jew or a Hindu or a Bhuddist or whatever. No doubt I will spend much of my time and energy trying to crack open the shell of dogmatic belief that constrains the religious mind till the day I die because I see that, as an intelligent and compassionate undertaking. I see no point in slagging those religious people for being medieval (as do some others) or so fanatical that they are hell bent on starting the next war or jihad. I do not know what it is I am even trying to say. Perhaps I mean that I respect all these diverse people because they are people whose differing cultures makes colourful diversity, even if I think their beliefs are a lot of old rubbish and dangerously so. I am more interested in building bridges with those who have opposing dogmatic viewpoints than I am in fighting them in a "holy" crusade. It does no good to write them off as being back in the dark ages. I would rather we all move together into an age of light. That we try to find some common ground and understand each other rather that fight for the sake of feared differences.

"May the lights in the land of plenty shine on the truth someday."

Bravo to Jm and Lizzy for having the courage to swim against the mainsteam.
Respectful regards, The silly Owl.

Ciao Owl,

No one is "raised" Christian. To be a Christian one must convert to Jesus Christ. No one is born a Christian. That is why Jesus said: "You must be born again."

Vesuvius

Vesuvius ~

Over here, both hold true. A person can be raised a Christian, which many are, with many baptized a such [or not]. Born-Again Christians make the distinction themselves, to set themselves apart from those who were merely raised Christian. The latter is a very conscious decision and act, with a specific, accompanying prayer.

~ Lizzy

Vesuvius, once again you pick on some trivial point to make an issue of contention which has nothing to do with the essential message that was written. I trust you are sufficiently entertained with your little game.
Trying to communicate with you honestly and seriously is indeed an exasperating process. I think I shall have to attend to more important and fruitful matters. In other words...................

Ciao,
W.O.

JMFlash- couple of things to u~
i think your promotion of evebraun boy ben laden didn't go very well,
did it? so now u start crying about slavery- it's an old spiele, friend, nicht war-not buying.

"or how they murdered Patrice Lumumba in the Congo to install Moise Tshombe"-
do u now much about the poor patrice lumumba? how he was taken to moscow to study marxism-lenin-stalin- brainwashed, he was suppoesed to be the main exporter of big "workers revolution" in africa, with his russian red advisors an a side. the young boys from african villages taken over to moscow for same reason, trained on russian weapons and for sure the main thing- how to make "workers revolution" africa is still having hang over from that "vodka and guns" teaching
what about the "ol gal"- arrafat- his boys were all over russia in late 70th and 80, - they were not placed in some lousy camps, no sir, they were trained officially at the finest russian aviation schools, with a nice monthly payments as well, not to speek about the marx-lenin-stalin agenda+hatred for usa and israel. they were so well trained one can only envy. and ol'gal arafat had his nice salary as well.

the united states since the second world war has been the only country of the western world with a worldwide military capability. i assume you seem to think this a bad thing. i stongly assume that it was and is not only a good thing, but the only reason, that western europe exists as western europe. that korea exists as a free country, that japan has not been driven into some russian induced neutrality. that much of the world has been kept from being overun by marxist elites, speaking in the name of the "people". like the sandanistas of nicaragua (who where voted out of office), like the naxalites of bihar and west bengal, who have been beaten back, like mengistu of ethiopia, like the final defeat of the leftwing laborites in england, and the stalinist led communist party of france, and the far left parties of italy that are now largely irrelevant, like the battle that was won against the marxist insurgency in greece after the second world war. and frankly the whole collapse of the shitthouse of "greater russia", by the might of the american economy, the might of the american military, and the noncompetative nature of the "socialist system".

not to get to long but lets takesome of countries.-iran, syria, saudie arabia, libya, lebanon.

a.iran. mossadeh overthrown by both england and america in 1953. bad move. resulting american "imperialist policy". overthrow of the shah by the shiia clerics. who still rule to this day. and by the way are very very unpopular with the average people of iran. no chance of any american military intervention. but the actions against the brutality of the taliban to the east of iran, and the actions by america against the madman sadaam to the west, seems to have tempered the rhetoric and actions from iran. i.e. they now allow the inspection of their nuclear power plants by the u.n.

b. syria. no chance of any american military involvement. assad jr. is a total dufuss. still vaguely hostile to america.

c. saudi arabia. still run by the saud family. wahaabi extremism a problem. should be taken to the "woodshed" for the support of radical islam. but general allied to the "west". american forces have been totally withdrawn from saudi arabia.

d. libya. a totally sad and decrepid government and economy. supported terrorists and was responsible for the bombing of pan am flight which crashed over lockerbie, scotland, as well as an explosion on a french civilian airliner, also the bombing of a bar used by american soldiers in berlin. result. gaddafi got a few of his tents blown up. boo hoo. and now, magically, after the united states invasion of sadaamville, has come clean about his nascent nuclear program. i would call this a big plus. no american troops involved in this area whatsoever.

e. lebanon. isreal withdrew from all of southern lebanon. americans bombed in their baracks during president reagans "reign". all american forces pulled out. shiias and sunnis have taken the political initiative from the maronite christians. no american troops involved since the baracks bombing.

i'm sure that there are a few american advisors in israel (a country created by the actions of anti-semitic cretins in europe), but no american troops stationed in israel. i think they have proven rather decisively that they can with a "bit" of money and arms from the united states take care of themselves. in 1948. in the six day war. in 1973 (which was a bit more of a struggle), and in subsequent actions against aggressive arab moves. like the 97 syrian jets that where destroyed in a preemtive attack in the 90's. but all your moaning about bad bad america is nothing more than provincial habit of yours
oh, i forgot the north korea, they are with that pathetic desire to rule the world . that is also not worth a comment.

one note about israel and the arab world. israel with a jewish population of 5.500.000 has 10 times the number of scientists that the lands of alaaaaah have around it. maybe that is the reason that israel constantly kicks muhammeds ass , will so in the future.

shalom

I knoooooow this is going to be inflammatory, fueling the flames. However, having just opened it this morning, I'm going to pass on another point of view. This is [presumably] from Michael Moore, author/filmmaker/political activist. The e-mail address seems to corroborate that, as he was born in Davison, a suburb [a couple miles over the line] of Flint, Michigan. I was born a couple miles away. Hmmm ....maybe it was something in the water at the time .

Bee, even though we both feel deeply and strongly on this, it remains an area where we really have to agree to disagree. I am stunned by and admire the depth and breadth of your historical knowledge on all of the worldwide conflicts. If some things are taken to task, with what you've said, it's impossible to have everything absolutely correct. Much of what we learn is from the history books, so many of which have been skewed in their writing. However, you clearly are so passionate as to have gathered tons of information. Even so, neither of us will change our minds on this. I feel as strongly, regarding what the U.S. has done and continues to do in the world for the sake of world domination. Maybe it has to do with "Be the change you want to see in the world" [Gandhi], and our hands are filthy. We can point our fingers at all the other atrocities, but does that really justify our own? There remains that adage that when you point your finger at someone, remember that there are still three, other fingers pointing back at you. I am glad that we [the U.S.] have helped some along the way; and I am fairly certain that some of it was initiated for the right reasons, as well.

Okay, now time for Michael Moore to get blasted [by some] and agreed with [by others]. [And me, as well, of course, for bringing it here.] I know it will bring both pro/con reactions, whether or not they get posted.

A letter from Michael Moore

Heads Up

April 14, 2004

I have never seen a head so far up a Presidential ass (pardon my Falluja)
than the one I saw last night at the "news conference" given by George
W. Bush. He's still talking about finding "weapons of mass destruction" this
time on Saddam's "turkey farm." Turkey indeed. Clearly the White House
believes there are enough idiots in the 17 swing states who will buy this. I
think they are in for a rude awakening.
I've been holed up for weeks in the editing room finishing my film
"Fahrenheit 911"). That's why you haven't heard from me lately. But after
last night's Lyndon Johnson impersonation from the East Room essentially
promising to send even more troops into the Iraq sinkhole I had to write you
all a note.
First, can we stop the Orwellian language and start using the proper names
for things? Those are not "contractors" in Iraq. They are not there to fix a
roof or to pour concrete in a driveway. They are MERCENARIES and SOLDIERS OF
FORTUNE. They are there for the money, and the money is very good if you
live long enough to spend it.

Halliburton is not a "company" doing business in Iraq. It is a WAR
PROFITEER, bilking millions from the pockets of average Americans. In
past wars they would have been arrested or worse.

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents"
or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and
their numbers will grow?and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush? You closed down
a friggin' weekly newspaper, you great giver of freedom and democracy!
Then all hell broke loose. The paper only had 10,000 readers! Why are you
smirking?

One year after we wiped the face of the Saddam statue with our American flag
before yanking him down, it is now too dangerous for a single media person
to go to that square in Baghdad and file a report on the wonderful one-year
anniversary celebration. Of course, there is no celebration, and those brave
blow-dried "embeds" can't even leave the safety of the fort in downtown
Baghdad. They never actually SEE what is taking place across Iraq (most of
the pictures we see on TV are shot by Arab media and some Europeans).
When you watch a report "from Iraq" what you are getting is the press
release handed out by the U.S. occupation force and repeated to you as
"news."

I currently have two cameramen/reporters doing work for me in Iraq for
my movie (unbeknownst to the Army). They are talking to soldiers and
gathering the true sentiment about what is really going on. They Fed Ex the
footage back to me each week. That's right, Fed Ex. Who said we haven't
brought freedom to Iraq! The funniest story my guys tell me is how when they
fly into Baghdad, they don't have to show a passport or go through
immigration.
Why not? Because they have not traveled from a foreign country, they're
coming from America TO America, a place that is ours, a new American
territory called Iraq.

There is a lot of talk amongst Bush's opponents that we should turn this
war over to the United Nations. Why should the other countries of this
world, countries who tried to talk us out of this folly, now have to clean
up our mess? I oppose the U.N. or anyone else risking the lives of their
citizens to extract us from our debacle. I'm sorry, but the majority of
Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must
now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe,
just maybe, God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end.

Until then, enjoy the "pacification" of Falluja, the "containment" of Sadr
City, and the next Tet Offensive oops, I mean, "terrorist attack by a small
group of Baathist loyalists" (Hahaha! I love writing those words, Baathist
loyalists, it makes me sound so Peter Jennings!)?followed by a "news
conference" where we will be told that we must "stay the course" because
we are "winning the hearts and minds of the people."

I'll write again soon. Don't despair. Remember, the American people are
not that stupid. Sure, we can be frightened into a war, but we always come
around sooner or later?and the one way this is NOT like Vietnam is that it
hasn't taken the public four long years to figure out they were lied to.

Now if Bush would just quit speaking in public and giving me more free
material for my movie, I can get back to work and get it done. I've got four
weeks left 'til completion.

Yours,
Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com

It seems those here weren't the only ones to take note of the smirk.
Okay, blast away..................[why does it feel like Kush will be the first to respond ? I think we've made it safely through that narrow eye of the needle, to agree to disagree, right?]

Dearest Lizzy, good morning, i was the first one, not kush, to respond.
michael moor is a fool and a clown- his name shood be boor, not moor
he is juss maintinig his career.
needs no comment, he's too obvious in his stupidity. tell his mama to give him a good spanking love u

Good Morning to you, too, Bee ~ You were my other choice on First Responders ~ guess I shoulda said it, though, huh . Ohhhh well . Anyway, glad to hear from you, even if we still don't agree [and shall I say 'never'? will] ~ on that. Fortunately, the redeeming qualities go beyond agreement on all things. I never did meet his mama [or him, for that matter], so won't be able to pass along your comment. I think she might suspect something if I tried to look her up now . However, he does provide his e-mail address, so you could tell him yourself ! Have you seen his film "Bowling for Columbine"? I know what he has to say grates on some people, but I've been pretty astounded by some of the things he's uncovered. Now, I gotta go Edit my "four fingers" to read "three fingers." I knew it didn't sound right, but I was in a hurry ~ and d'ya think I looked down to check ? Nooooo .

Love,
Lizzy