leonardcohenforum.com

Hello everyone,

It seems that in my absence quite a few things have happened. I see that Jarkko has managed to open new threads for Krakow – thank you, Jarkko, I shall also take the opportunity to ask some questions there – and the debate on death camps has turned to a heated discussion about human weaknesses or strengths.

Having a strong position about a topic - any topic - is reasonable and this has to be respected. But using death as a pretext to express personal frustrations against any nation – and doing it NOW, in the 21st century, is too much.

This is a community that places love before anything else – love of music, love of the Other, love as a healer, love as a binder of communities. I think that what brought us all together is our love and respect for Leonard Cohen and his music. Expressed in different ways - through words, paintings, sculptures (I really liked them, though they are too expensive for me), attitudes, music, memorabilia, friendship or other – but all just as honorable. Each of us has a different way of building something, inside ourselves or outside, on the foundation of this common point called Leonard Cohen.
Yes, some of us want to see the death camps with our own eyes. It may come from a sense of duty, from the mind, from the heart, from curiosity, from fear that it may happen again, from our desire for peace, from our sense of justice, from a sense of community with people we never knew and – dear God! – we might never have heard about, if Hitler had managed to finish his job.

There is enough hatred in this world today. People and communities have no time to bother about others. And they do not want to be bothered with other people’s problems, either. Injustice is something we live with every day. From a husband or wife, from a boss, from a president, from an extreme right or extreme left party, from things we want to do and can’t, from things others want us to do and we won’t, from heavy traffic, from lack of money, from thieves, violators, ethnic groups that we do not feel comfortable with, newspapers, television, biased talk shows, Jerry Springer, Le Pen, Mao (I know that he is dead, of course), Napoleon, the Inquisition, the Pope, Vietnam, fundamentalism, the British Empire, the Russian Empire, slavery (by the way, it was not the British who invented it!), soldiers, tyrants, illnesses, money….

No, Greg, it is not the dead who want us to suffer. It is us who induce that suffering – preferably to others. Sometimes this pain is physical, and sometimes it comes from words. There must have been some terrible blows that you have suffered in your life so far, if you are so willing to hurt others in turn.
Think again if you expect to wake up tomorrow with a smile on your face. There will be none. Or maybe just a faint one, to keep face.

Please, dear friends, leave hatred apart. It is not what we are here for.
And, by the way, this is a thread for those who wish to speak about Auschwitz and plan to visit it, and nobody is forced to join in if they do not care. There are other threads to follow.

Dear Carmen,

I know you are meaning well, but sorry to say so, to my mind, you are missing the point. I cannot see any hatred in Greg's post. His - sharp, admittedly - reaction has been provoked by someone calling his very open, no doubt difficult statement "rubbish", which may just be undiplomatic, but no doubt speaks of a lack of tact and empathy as well, at least (sorry, don't want to become personal here, I happen to get along very well with both persons involved). Greg was speaking of Auschwitz and his feelings about it (if you think he does not care after what he had written there, I must say I wonder whether you have read his post at all) - and so was I, and so was everyone here- and when Greg replied to what was an insensitive reaction to his very personal confession, in a manner that may have been deliberately provocative, and perhaps justly so, it was just to make the very same point he had made before. Don't you worry, if there is any person around who will awake with a smile on his face, it is Greg - and for all the right reasons. Also, there has been an antecedent to this unfortunate discussion - it is a shame that this has been carried into this thread, yes, but it was not Greg's fault in the first place, it is not him wanting to hurt others, believe me. So, you are right, just let us get our minds back on the essential issues, although personally, I find they never have been abandoned here.

True enough, I did not realize that he had answered to someone else. I do not doubt his good intentions - I was just shocked to read the words about the British in his post. I hadn't expected that - I am not British, so there is no bias here. I am Romanian and I live in a country of basically nice, good-hearted people, but we see, sometimes, hatred around us, from some of us or against some of ours. This is why I was so shocked.
Still, the words I wrote came from my heart, with the hope that we continue to live in the spirit of Leonard Cohen. He is a rebel and always has been, but I doubt that he ever uttered a tough word at anyone, even when people had hurt him.

Dear Carmen ~

Now, that I've gotten a chance to catch up with this, I need to weigh in, too. I've met both of these truly fine gentlemen in person and gotten along very well with them both. I've now been surprised by them both. I still feel the same affection for them both.

When Hydriot took such an uncompromisingly, staunch stand on visiting Auschwitz-Birkenau and used the word "rubbish" regarding Greg's ambivalent decision to visit, I wondered where did Hydriot's civility go for the course of his writing this post. Surely, it returned immediately after he clicked Submit. If ever there were an issue for an absolutely personal decision on what is right/not right for an individual to visit, this is such an issue. Hydriot's adamance in his 'one size fits all' response was surprising and disappointing. I know how much he cares about these events and his way of dealing with them is what he chooses for himself. He is a deeply caring person. I'm interested in visiting the area that he's suggested, as well.

For me, it is such graphic evidence into the reality of the horror that if ever compassion were to be at the base of any kind of decision-making that in any way related to what happened there, what could still happen now, and what is still happening now... actually visiting and witnessing what remains will give a person the kind of compassion that no amount of reading will ever provide. There is real value in going there and seeing it for yourself. It catapults you out of your comfort zone, but most often it seems that is where the true lessons abide.

When I read Greg's response, I found it very uncharacteristically aggressive when he unnecessarily brought in some historical-based observations about England/Britain. It felt superfluous in the context of the discussion and disagreement. It seemed to me a defensive posturing in response to what Hydriot had said. When you meet Greg, you will find that your impressions of him from that one post are completely without merit. The way you've described him is plainly and simply a No Matches Found. He's very open, warm, and engaging.

Your own observations about the state of the world today and the urgency of our respecting the insight that what has gone before offers us now in preventing the repetition of these atrocities if spot on. I'm looking forward to meeting you and am so glad that you'll be part of our group when we visit, as it's clear you will appreciate the benefit of our going and seeing for ourselves, and the deeper understanding that comes from that. I'm also happy that you will have the opportunity to meet Greg in person. He's one of the finer people I've met in a long time. I hope the situations will bring you face-to-face with Hydriot, as well. You'll find him very open, warm, and engaging, as well, and another one of the finer people around.

All of these comments are without returning to the individual postings about which I'm commenting... so, if there's anything amiss in what I've said, that's the reason for it. I'll be happy to clarify anything that's needed, but I just really don't want to return and read each person's posting and go through the 'emotional' reactions to them that I had the first and second times I read them.


~ Lizzy

Dear friends,

By an amazing coincidence, on Thursday I attended a lecture at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor (where I live) that is very relevant, in many ways, to the discussion here.

The speaker was a visiting professor from the U. of Chicago (where I went to grad school); she spoke on restitution of property seized from French Jews by the Nazis during the World War II occupation. After the liberation of France, a bureaucratic process to deal with claims to seized property was set up by the French government. As the speaker related, some French Jews:

1) were grateful for any opportunity to reclaim their belongings/memories and gratefully went thru the process
2) some were extremely offended at the incredibly bureaucratic nature of the process (people had to prove recovered property was theirs, for obvious reasons) but went thru with it
3) some refused to participate, feeling that to do would legitimize the Nazi theft of their property
4) some didn't want to get involved in anything that would summon up the horrible memories of that time

She also related the incredible story of a French Jew named Levi, who, attending a museum exhibit on the Shoah (Holocaust) in Paris, saw the suitcase of his father, Pierre, that had been stolen from him at Auschwitz, where he was murdered (the Auschwitz museum had lent the suitcase for the Paris exhibit--as those of you who have been to Auschwitz know, there is little that can prepare you for the shock of seeing thousands of suitcases, eyeglasses, shoes, etc, etc that today reside in the Auschwitz museum). Levi demanded that the suitcase be returned to him, explaining that he could not bear the thought of it being transported to Auschwitz yet again, now without his father. The Auschwitz museum refused to return it, declaring that doing so would open the floodgates to thousands of similar requests and destroy the museum's ability to convey what happened at Auschwitz. After a court battle, the Auschwitz museum finally agreed to leave the suitcase on permanent loan to the museum in Paris.

Who is right? Like the question of visiting Auschwitz, each person/institution/government had to decide what is right for themselves.

My guess is that those who have decided to visit are doing so because we are trying to find answers, even tho we know that we won't find them. Or perhaps we are going because we cannot not go. Others may feel that they cannot or do not wish to go for any number of reasons that are right for them.

There are no answers, there are only questions. I'm afraid that's how it will always be. But we have to keep trying to find the answers, each in our own way.

Today is the beginning of the Jewish new year. Happy new year to all!

Bob Goldstein, Ann Arbor, Michigan USA

goldstei wrote: There are no answers, there are only questions. I'm afraid that's how it will always be. But we have to keep trying to find the answers, each in our own way.

Today is the beginning of the Jewish new year. Happy new year to all!

Bob Goldstein, Ann Arbor, Michigan USA

Wonderful words, and so true, too. There are always thousands of different answers for each question that we ask ourselves, or comes from others.

Happy New Year to all Jewish friends, known or not known, all over the world. I think that "Next year in Jerusalem" usually comes after the wishes. Some will be in Israel with Leonard this year... lucky them... what a great symbol!

Carmen

I made the mistake of looking back at these threads because I am interested in the planned tour and people's reaction to it. I found Greg's unprovoked tirade against the British inexcusable and offensive. Do you need me to apologise Greg? Though you should remember that my peaseant forebearers were as much victims as any of the groups you cite. And if you're going to have a rant at the British then why not have a pop at all the other nations and groups who have been responsible for brutalities over the course of history.

I thought Carmen's post was well written and thought out. Most of all, I thought this thread was about discussion our personal reasons for going - or not going - to Auschwitz.

Wendy

Well, there may have been a (deliberate) twist of argument on Greg's part, a provocation, yes - but to my mind, all of this, including Greg's reply to Hydriot, still is (and has been) about how collective guilt does NOT work, if you read between the lines! And I would not apply the term "unprovoked" here, either, Mabeanie1. Greg had been presenting his, as you call it so aptly, very "personal reasons for going - or not going - to Auschwitz", only to be met with a less than diplomatic response by Hydriot (and not for the first time). But that does not count, obviously, which is quite a mystery to me...
As this line of argument obviously does not lead anywhere, can we please get our minds back on the topic, please?! Thanks! Carmen and Greg have, by the way, managed to sort things out, so I really see no reason why the rest of us should continue to accuse each other personally or collectively here, either...
P.S.: This is probably not a wise thing to say at all, but I will mention it nevertheless: I have lived in the UK for more than a year, studying and working there, I loved it - and yet, I have been expected, if not to "apologize", at least to justify myself for the mere fact of being a German (back then, I was in my late twenties) to British friends, even fellow-historians, ever so often. And still, I am not offended...

Hi Wendy

No, I certainly don't expect you, or anybody else to apologise for the trail of destruction and havoc the British left across the world, it's not the fault of any of us alive today, although collectively, as Australians, British and Americans, I feel we should be ashamed of recent leaders we elected - that dreadful, dreadful slippery Blair, the 1950s' 'Yes Man' Howard and that lunatic Bush. And don't get me wrong, I'm not leaving out the bastards in other nations, it's just that we need to put our own houses in order. That includes understanding our own country's respective roles in creating situations that now exist.

I think we all have to be conscious of the past, but primarily in order to try to build a better future. Bisiting Auschwitz should not in any way be interpreted as alleviating or covering up the many crimes of many other governments, certainly including that of my own (the U.S.), crimes which invariably entangle all of us in various degrees in their web, even if ordinary people are certainly not generally responsible for their origins and are often involuntary cogs in the wheels of their implementation. We can't change the past, but we can change the future, so I'd urge that we try to somehow use our knowledge of past atrocities to above all, seek to make sure that they do not recur. Hate and ignorance are the enemy, not any one country or any one people. Reading some of the moving accounts from those on both sides who have suffered in the Israeli-Arab conflict, reported in many of the stories about LC's Tel Aviv concerts, suggests at least some possibilities for transforming past crimes/hatred into seeking to build a constructive future. And if not now, when?

Without making such efforts (and I realize fully that this is very abstract and perhaps even gaseous, but we have to do what we can), Leonard's vision ("I have seen the future and it's murder") is all too likely to prove prescient.

Bob Goldstein

Womanfromaroom wrote: can we please get our minds back on the topic, please?!

Mabeanie1 wrote: Most of all, I thought this thread was about discussing our personal reasons for going - or not going - to Auschwitz.

Wendy

Perhaps someone can shift the political element of this to the political debates, where it belongs? This thread started off as a sensitive, thoughtful one. Shame it's been hijacked in other directions.

Wendy

Well, sometimes it is just forum dynamics - we all are human, I suppose; as long as you don't suggest there has been any "trolling" - and in this cae, there definitely hasn't, this is just the (admittedly unfortunate) course the discussion has taken! -, again, I don't think any single person can be blamed for this and that "hijacked" is simply the wrong word here...

That's me told then ....

W

I didn't really see the word hijacked as being singular as to who/how it happened, but just a shift of focus, a shift that came with a heavy dose of surprise... not necessarily with a particular intent for that to happen, either, but just the outcome of it all.

So, what we have is someone reading it for the first time and reacting, the same as others of us did earlier on, even though things have been worked out. This makes me consider the possibility, again, of searching waaaaaaay back in these threads to some time a number of years ago when I got pretty insensitive to someone in the midst of some pretty heated exchanges... and just deleting it. I've left it, as is, without deletion or even edits, on the basis of "truth" ~ i.e. I said it, so why pretend I didn't. Still, what purpose does letting it stand really serve. I seriously doubt anyone joining here will ever read back that far on the Forum, but why let that kind of representation of myself just be there, when I have the option of deletion. So, seeing how people will naturally react to things, as happened here with Wendy, makes me reconsider once again.

Anyway, it seemed to me that Wendy did an admirable job of trying to get back to the garden [in this case, the original topic], and in doing that, it seemed to be just a matter of semantics.

I hope you'll join us, Wendy. Are you interested in going for a full day, too?


~ Lizzy

Dear all,
I wonder if our Krakow meetings will be just as heated?

In the weeks I have spent actively with this forum (and the two years of reading your posts) I have come to like many of you, for the way in which you share your love and admiration for Leonard, for your opinions and interesting threads that keep popping up all the time. I already have a picture, in my mind, for some of you. I can hardly wait for us all to meet in Krakow, so that I can turn mental pictures into reality.

But, please, do not change - any of you! You are wonderful the way you are. I shall always stick to my opinions and defend them, and so will you, I am sure. And Ann Kristin, and Lizzy, and everyone else - do not delete your words from several years back... they probably represented you at that time. It is the feeling of personal growth that matters - and the smile that says: look, I have become a better/wiser/more scholarly/happier/etc... person.

So, I can hardly wait for heated Krakow debates on any topic!

Carmen