Book of Mercy #8-10

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
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Joe Way
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Post by Joe Way »

Tom & Simon,
Perhaps it was the discussion of the 150 Biblical psalms that led to the confusion. I've never read that Leonard wrote 150 of his, but, then again, it wouldn't surprise as I'm sure that he re-wrote his 50 at least 3 times each.

Joe
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Warning : this is a post-brackets (not directly reliated to the subject, but created, existing, because of it).

Dear Lazariuk, I'll have to read this poem, now. Your story was certainly valuable contribution too me, and I wait for Joe's post on the numinous.

Joe, regarding If it be your will, it is not in the chat it is there :

http://perso.orange.fr/pilgraeme/

"Which song you wish you had written? "If it be Your Will". And I wrote it.*
My favorite verse in it is "All your children here in their rags of light" * *
Leonard COHEN
(* September 94,interview for Q Magazine)
(* * 1985 Paroles et musique magazine)
(read the complete Q interview)"

in rags of light all dressed to kill how beautiful and indeed I feel it is the best verse in it. This is the one I wanted to stressed.

In the chat, however, I found this :

Source :

http://www.leonardcohen.com/DearHeather ... =community

Maurice: Does religion matter?

Leonard Cohen: Dear Maurice, Religions are among the great organizing principles of humanity. It seems to me they matter too much and not enough.

and this :

John: How do you feel your experience of Buddhism has influenced you and why is your experience of meditation not reflected more in your songs?

Leonard Cohen: Dear John, A while ago I played the record for two Zen monks. When it was finished they were silent for some time. Then one of them said, "That was as good as two weeks of session" (an intensive meditation retreat). The other monk kept his eyes closed and only opened them when I filled his glass. Then we kept on drinking.

and this :

Slashlarue: sir: when exactly IS 'Closing Time?' (great song!)

Leonard Cohen: Dear Slashlarue, It's that wild, or beautiful, or terrible time when things reach their maximum point of expansion, and then begin to contract. It's the time we're in. I'm glad you like the song.

This is why his last songs are not, could not - and thanks God - be the same as the first ones. I appreciate the evolution, and I am also aware that at his age, he experiences many things I have not yet a clue, while I can recognize so many in the first songs.

I close the brackets on this.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Thanks for bringing these here, Tchocolatl. I feel that this posting is very relevant to this thread. Both of these reenforce the validity of Jack's input regarding the various, again valid, ways of experiencing, analyzing, and processing this book of Leonard's, the same as any other:
Maurice: Does religion matter?

Leonard Cohen: Dear Maurice, Religions are among the great organizing principles of humanity. It seems to me they matter too much and not enough.

and this :

John: How do you feel your experience of Buddhism has influenced you and why is your experience of meditation not reflected more in your songs?

Leonard Cohen: Dear John, A while ago I played the record for two Zen monks. When it was finished they were silent for some time. Then one of them said, "That was as good as two weeks of session" (an intensive meditation retreat). The other monk kept his eyes closed and only opened them when I filled his glass. Then we kept on drinking.



Wish I had more time to actively participate in this thread, Tchocolatl. I can't even begin to express all the conflicting activities, each requiring blocks and snippets of time. I don't feel 'free,' yet, but am working on getting there. Thanks for your very kind comments regarding my input/potential input.

Meanwhile, I really enjoyed the results of your research here, with your own, ending comment [with which I strongly agree], as well as your last, several postings in this thread. I'm enjoying the reading... nothing personally required, beyond contemplation; and much gained.

Thanks for your own input.


~ Lizzy
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Leonard has said on occasion that he sees this world on a Biblical landscape and that leads me to wondering where this particular page would fit on that landscape.
In the previous sections where he speaks of man being out of right relation with women we have ample opportunities to see signs of this in the pages of the Bible which often reads like one long tragic story of man falling out of this right relation. I think it would be easy for Leonard to see his own fall often mirrored by those on the Biblical pages.

In this page when Leonard writes of man falling from his high place, on tripping on his achievement and then " bewildered till his heart cries out to bless the one who holds him in his falling" the feeling of the poem seems so much like the song "Hallelujah" that is cried out as he is gathered into the embrace of the falling.

There are two men who are pointed to in this song, David and Samson with the words "She broke your throne and cut your hair". I think it is good that two are mentioned because we can reflect on what they had in common. Both fell from a place of achievement, but noteable the place of achievement and high place that was erected by other men and maybe against the plan of God.

What I find interesting about Samson is that he is born marked for greatness, the unusual birth etc. In his early years he falls in love with a Philistine woman. That love might have been the true greatness that he was destined for but the writers of the story don't even give her name and claim that his falling in love with a Philistine woman was just part of a great plan of God to have the Jews beat the crap out of the Philistines.

Anyway their great affair didn't get off to a good start for when he tried some dirty little trick to take advantage of the good nature of her relatives she didn't go along with it. He started killing and didn't stop until he brought the roof in. The rest as they say is history and who knows how far this killing would have gone if he didn't meet Delilah who made him once again fall in love and she brought about his great fall.

Samson was a judge who ruled twenty years but I guess the Jews started figuring that if a judge can be this powerful then how much more so could a king be and so it was around this time that they started whining to God to let them have a King. Everyone else has a king, they said and so why can't we. That likely wasn't part of the glorious plan but I guess that if you ask for something long enough you get it and the time of Kings began.
Eventually David became King and started getting away with doing things that kings can get away with doing and might have kept on doing so until he came across a woman who pulled him over the line and he did something that everyone, even himself knew was a disgrace. Here he joined Samson in the fall that draws him once again into the "Hallelujah"

Well that is the Biblical landscape that I see this page to be on.

Jack
Simon
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Post by Simon »

So the judeo-christian fall is always trigered by women...?


lazariuk wrote:What I find interesting about Samson is that he is born marked for greatness
Does the story say what kind of mark? In many cultures, the birth mark of greatness is being born wraped in the placenta. This is often decribed metaphorically in the different languages. It is often alluded to in the Grimm tales.
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Simon wrote:So the judeo-christian fall is always trigered by women...?
I don't know. Some I guess. What was yours triggered by?
Does the story say what kind of mark? In many cultures, the birth mark of greatness is being born wraped in the placenta. This is often decribed metaphorically in the different languages. It is often alluded to in the Grimm tales.
A glorious angel of the Lord ascending in the flame of the alter. The angel let the parents know that Samson was going to be born to the barren wife.

Jack[/quote]
Simon
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Post by Simon »

lazariuk wrote:What was yours triggered by?
In my dreams I often fall. But its not the falling that comes as a surprise, it's the flying...
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

I guess this thread became so voluminous that it is really hard to follow everything that is going on or was posted long ago. However, let me just remind you that “If It Be Your Will” was introduced and discussed shortly on p. 8 above (which does not exclude further discussion, of course), and that the questions and answers quoted by Tchocolatl on the previous page were quoted more extensively by Tom on p. 7.
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

Simon wrote:So the judeo-christian fall is always trigered by women...?
People often talk about the “Judeo-Christian tradition” as if it was one thing (and LC has used this expression too). But the fact is that despite the (partially) joint biblical heritage, there are also some very big differences. When a person brought up as a Christian and a person brought up as a Jew speak about “sin” or “the fall” they may be speaking about two different things without realizing it. “The Fall" itself, it should be remembered, is basically a Christian idea, not a Jewish one. Of course, the trauma of Eden is part of Jewish heritage too, but there is no true Jewish equivalent for the Christian concept of “original sin”; a similar Hebrew expression appears only in late Middle Ages, perhaps as a reflection of the Christian expression. There is also no equivalent for the “fall from grace”, which required the redemption by Christ. In Jewish consciousness, the sin of the golden calf in Exodus holds the center stage much more than the sin of Eden in Genesis.

I’ve said above that the case of LC is complicated because of his deep awareness of Christian teaching. So I’m not saying that when he speaks of falling in I.8 he cannot have “the Fall” in mind too, and certainly Jesus, as Tchocolatl had pointed out. I’m only saying that terms should be used with caution, because they wouldn’t necessarily mean what we think they mean.

Now, about women being the cause for all kinds of falls, it is the sign of patriarchal societies generally, not only Judeo-Christian; think about Pandora, for example. In the Bible, Eve and Delilah are certainly painted black, but Bathsheba is different, as I’ve said much earlier. She may have inadvertently caused David to sin, but she also bore him the son who perpetuated his line. In the New Testament this motif appears potentially in the figure of Mary Magdalene, but there it is checked or perhaps censored. It was developed further in works such as the novel The Last Temptation of Christ by Nikos Kazantzakis, and the film based on it made by Martin Scorsese, both causing big scandals.
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

DBCohen wrote: In the Bible, Eve and Delilah are certainly painted black
Dont't you think that this might be a matter of opinion? Maybe someone can be reading the Bible and see Delilah in a very different light. Not black at all, lets say for instance someone like Leonard Cohen.

The Philistines probably didn't see her as painted black either. They probably saw her as someone who was trying to stop someone on a killing rampage.

Do you think it is acceptable for the Bible to be looked at from different viewpoints and not necessarily just from the viewpoint of those who claim it is theres?

Jack
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Out of the eater came something to eat
Out of the bitter came something sweet
...Samson
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Lizzy I understand very well - those were my last (almost desperate;-) sparkles here : a new year - great - and with it some changes that are demanding my entire attention, but I enjoy it.

DBCohen, but I was 'talking' of something completely different than what is on those pages... what? But Ey! I don't mind that you don't care and/or interested. 'Hard to keep track of everything on this thread, I agree with you, and one must make a choice. I don't think that Joe is mind at all (I won't do) that I pointed where are the things he said about If it be your Will. It is an automatism for me to cite the sources of information, that's all.

In rags of light all dressed to kill - again, how I like this image, Joe.

DBCohen, how interesting is your stressing of differences between J. and C. Off course when we are saying "Judeo-Christian religion" it means that Christianity comes from Judaism and not that they are alike. (Ah! Here is my dear golden calf! A "good friend" of mine if we take into account how often I spoke about it here) Please go on, if you feel like it, of course, as I find the information on your religion not only very interesting, but I did notice that Leonard Cohen's work was analyzed under many traditions but rarely in the Jewish tradition. On the net at least.

Cheers all!
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

lazariuk wrote:
Out of the eater came something to eat
Out of the bitter came something sweet
...Samson
I think that is one of the finest examples I have ever seen of Leonard Cohen's expression "An ape with angel glands". Someone excreting something that is far beyond their ability to possibly understand even though he thought that he was the only one who understood it.
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

Jack,

I said that in the Bible they are painted black; that was the opinion of those who wrote the stories. They wrote them in such a way that we will not think favorably about those two. Of course, everyone is free to interpret them differently, and to see in their actions other meanings than those intended by the authors.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Tchocolatl ~
. . . a new year - great - and with it some changes that are demanding my entire attention, but I enjoy it.
Yes... I may even have an inkling :) . Enjoy :D . Life is too short, as it is.


~ Lizzy
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