What to do with the Politics?

[Byron]

Oh dear, as soon as I read the words 'cat herding' and 'rules,' I go all peculiar, all over.
Not a pretty sight!

So I'll get me to my small cell, wherein I shall endeavour to finish knitting the fog which I began working on in another plane of existence. ( existentialists do it.........all over the place )

[GinaDCG]

I've seen in another forum subjects that are 'pinned'. They always stay at the top of an area and might include rules or popular subjects so that people aren't always starting new topics about the same thing. I've also seen 'sub-topics' used so that you might see 'Israel' in the politics section but have to click on it to see all of the subtopics - just a possible way of keeping things tidier.

This sounds like a practical cat corral. What think you Jarkko?

[efc]

I think it's time to discuss the future of our "Politics" section. There are only a couple of members who are posting there, most of them about Israel, or US politics.
The number of views these messages generate is very limited, although the threads get excessive visibility in the "View new posts" option which is used by most of our members.
I don't want to close the section totally, but we could introduce some other methods. What about merging all new Israel-threads to just one, and all messages about US politics also to one.
Comments and suggestions are welcome!

Looks as though the consensus is against you, and include me in the consensus.

Btw clearly there are far more than "a couple of members who are posting" in Politics. I presume the "View new posts" facility reflects what's posted throughout the forum, even if they are not in Politics, and there are replies to most threads in Politics.

I've commented recently about amalgamating issues:

"And posting in Politics is easier said than done. A while ago, and after I had not posted for a while, I started three threads on separate issues. Some moderator (because of course these people normally hide their behind a veil of secrecy), amalgamated all three threads in indiscriminate fashion, making one combined incoherent thread."

There seems to be a thing about lumping political threads together, even when a Politics forum has been set up specifically for politics.

I now digress a little but there are a couple of things that have ocurred to me. One is to make the whole forum password protected, ie. to include looking at posts. The other is for links to open a separate window.

[efc]

Simple and short : Remove it.
This is a Leonard Cohen forum, no place for politics.

Antoine

Leonard has never expressed a political sentiment in any of his songs.

[efc]

I would prefer to see the Politics section go away, and the "no politics" rule upheld.
There are so many forums and sites where people can talk about politics, why do it here?

The only other message board where I post is another music site - that also has a Politics forum.

[efc]

To be honest, I did wonder how a politics thread ever came in to being on a Leonard Cohen Forum ?

Jarkko must have felt it necessary, so........

Exactly, Jarkko did feel it necessary.

[efc]

As I have already written earlier, Politics = Garbage.
It should not be allowed here.
Do whatever you want with it. I just don't want to see it. Never.

Well spotted - Leonard sang about Garbage (bags) in the political song "Democracy". If you want my opinion, they're the sort of things that time doesn't decay.

If it's not too much of an imposition please could you bring my groceries in.

[efc]

How about simply ring-fencing the Politics section by taking posts to it out of the list of new posts (assuming it's technically possible to do it)? Those that are interested can go straight to the Politics section to see what is going on there; those that want to stay well out of it need not be troubled by any of it.

Wendy

Ditto. If possible, I vote for this approach. One problem is with the semi (or NOT semi) professional Trolls -- they submit political topics and get paid for the # of views. I do not wish to accuse any Forum member of being trolls, but it would be naive for any of us to believe that this forum is exempt from this common, professional troll problem. So, ring-fencing as mentioned above would preserve members right to talk about political subjects of interest but would insulate the Forum as a whole from being exploited by the trolls.

I have noted that a few topics are visited by only 2 members in what seems more like a public exchange of private messages.

I thoroughly agree with what Mabeanie1 and Gina have said. I think that if the politics section were completely removed then even more non- political threads would be 'hijacked' so to speak, which already happens enough does it not?.
A politics section is needed it seems, but a little more seperation from 'new posts' may well be in order.

A
x

Indeed. Some people will stop at nothing to bring Politics into all sorts of conversations.

[efc]

I disagree completely with those that suggest that removing the politics section constitutes censorship and the "you can't disinvent the bomb so live with it and make a place for it in your heart" one too.

Of course Leonard Cohen is political and his songs have a "political edge", but they are not party political and I've oft found myself quoting the "neither left nor right" line in this context. I'm political myself, and have strong views on the way things are and the way I'd prefer them to be, but I don't feel the need to air my views on here at any given moment and would think it inappropriately rude of myself to do so in a forum intended for fans of a songwriter to get together and not much else.

You could argue that the politics section has a positive function akin to "the homicidal bitchin' that goes on in every kitchen" but again I disagree. Family arguments in kitchens are usually resolvable and get resolved because situationally they have to be. Arguments in the ether don't and can't.

If you ask me, political discussions in forums like this are the bourgeois internet equivalent of taking a dump in the open air. I would therefore like to suggest that the politics section be re-titled "the taking a dump section" or, more simply, "the latrine". At least everyone then knows where it's located should they feel the need to go, and the place to avoid if they prefer to keep their nostrils away from something backed up and malodorous .

Taking the politics section out of the "new posts" list would be good too.

The people who went to Leonard's concert and cheered the line "Democracy is coming to the USA" are going to be well upset by this.

[efc]

In the words of Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat Politics."
Better that politically motivated thoughts find a home in this section, than run like a virus through other threads.

Very dramatic. We've had this sort of conversation before. If you can't cope with my mentioning in Music a political comment, an offensive comment at that, made by Judy Collins at a concert (and in a thread already in place re her concerts btw) then that's your problem it seems to me. But given your subsequent post about the effect of politics in our lives, perhaps my comments weren't as much of a problem for you as you made out.

[John the Shorts]

Post by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:37 pm

jarkko wrote:I think it's time to discuss the future of our "Politics" section. There are only a couple of members who are posting there, most of them about Israel, or US politics.
The number of views these messages generate is very limited, although the threads get excessive visibility in the "View new posts" option which is used by most of our members.
I don't want to close the section totally, but we could introduce some other methods. What about merging all new Israel-threads to just one, and all messages about US politics also to one.
Comments and suggestions are welcome!



Looks as though the consensus is against you, and include me in the consensus.

Btw clearly there are far more than "a couple of members who are posting" in Politics. I presume the "View new posts" facility reflects what's posted throughout the forum, even if they are not in Politics, and there are replies to most threads in Politics.

I've commented recently about amalgamating issues:

"And posting in Politics is easier said than done. A while ago, and after I had not posted for a while, I started three threads on separate issues. Some moderator (because of course these people normally hide their behind a veil of secrecy), amalgamated all three threads in indiscriminate fashion, making one combined incoherent thread."

There seems to be a thing about lumping political threads together, even when a Politics forum has been set up specifically for politics.

I now digress a little but there are a couple of things that have ocurred to me. One is to make the whole forum password protected, ie. to include looking at posts. The other is for links to open a separate window.

Post by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:38 pm

Antoine wrote:Simple and short : Remove it.
This is a Leonard Cohen forum, no place for politics.

Antoine



Leonard has never expressed a political sentiment in any of his songs.

by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:41 pm

brightnow wrote:I would prefer to see the Politics section go away, and the "no politics" rule upheld.
There are so many forums and sites where people can talk about politics, why do it here?



The only other message board where I post is another music site - that also has a Politics forum.

by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:42 pm

Vicomte wrote:To be honest, I did wonder how a politics thread ever came in to being on a Leonard Cohen Forum ?

Jarkko must have felt it necessary, so........



Exactly, Jarkko did feel it necessary.

by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:43 pm

jglBB wrote:As I have already written earlier, Politics = Garbage.
It should not be allowed here.
Do whatever you want with it. I just don't want to see it. Never.



Well spotted - Leonard sang about Garbage (bags) in the political song "Democracy". If you want my opinion, they're the sort of things that time doesn't decay.

If it's not too much of an imposition please could you bring my groceries in.

Post by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:44 pm

Alsiony wrote:

GinaDCG wrote:

Mabeanie1 wrote:How about simply ring-fencing the Politics section by taking posts to it out of the list of new posts (assuming it's technically possible to do it)? Those that are interested can go straight to the Politics section to see what is going on there; those that want to stay well out of it need not be troubled by any of it.

Wendy



Ditto. If possible, I vote for this approach. One problem is with the semi (or NOT semi) professional Trolls -- they submit political topics and get paid for the # of views. I do not wish to accuse any Forum member of being trolls, but it would be naive for any of us to believe that this forum is exempt from this common, professional troll problem. So, ring-fencing as mentioned above would preserve members right to talk about political subjects of interest but would insulate the Forum as a whole from being exploited by the trolls.

I have noted that a few topics are visited by only 2 members in what seems more like a public exchange of private messages.



I thoroughly agree with what Mabeanie1 and Gina have said. I think that if the politics section were completely removed then even more non- political threads would be 'hijacked' so to speak, which already happens enough does it not?.
A politics section is needed it seems, but a little more seperation from 'new posts' may well be in order.

A
x



Indeed. Some people will stop at nothing to bring Politics into all sorts of conversations.

Post by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:48 pm

UrPal wrote:I disagree completely with those that suggest that removing the politics section constitutes censorship and the "you can't disinvent the bomb so live with it and make a place for it in your heart" one too.

Of course Leonard Cohen is political and his songs have a "political edge", but they are not party political and I've oft found myself quoting the "neither left nor right" line in this context. I'm political myself, and have strong views on the way things are and the way I'd prefer them to be, but I don't feel the need to air my views on here at any given moment and would think it inappropriately rude of myself to do so in a forum intended for fans of a songwriter to get together and not much else.

You could argue that the politics section has a positive function akin to "the homicidal bitchin' that goes on in every kitchen" but again I disagree. Family arguments in kitchens are usually resolvable and get resolved because situationally they have to be. Arguments in the ether don't and can't.

If you ask me, political discussions in forums like this are the bourgeois internet equivalent of taking a dump in the open air. I would therefore like to suggest that the politics section be re-titled "the taking a dump section" or, more simply, "the latrine". At least everyone then knows where it's located should they feel the need to go, and the place to avoid if they prefer to keep their nostrils away from something backed up and malodorous .

Taking the politics section out of the "new posts" list would be good too.



The people who went to Leonard's concert and cheered the line "Democracy is coming to the USA" are going to be well upset by this.

Post by efc » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:49 pm

Byron wrote:In the words of Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat Politics."
Better that politically motivated thoughts find a home in this section, than run like a virus through other threads.



Very dramatic. We've had this sort of conversation before. If you can't cope with my mentioning in Music a political comment, an offensive comment at that, made by Judy Collins at a concert (and in a thread already in place re her concerts btw) then that's your problem it seems to me. But given your subsequent post about the effect of politics in our lives, perhaps my comments weren't as much of a problem for you as you made out.

In the words of Marie Antoinette, "Let them eat Politics."
Better that politically motivated thoughts find a home in this section, than run like a virus through other threads.

Very dramatic. We've had this sort of conversation before. If you can't cope with my mentioning in Music a political comment, an offensive comment at that, made by Judy Collins at a concert (and in a thread already in place re her concerts btw) then that's your problem it seems to me. But given your subsequent post about the effect of politics in our lives, perhaps my comments weren't as much of a problem for you as you made out.

EFC - Is that 8 posts on the same subject without response, many boards would class that as trolling or post pimping

Post by Cate » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:07 pm
I've seen in another forum subjects that are 'pinned'. They always stay at the top of an area and might include rules or popular subjects so that people aren't always starting new topics about the same thing. I've also seen 'sub-topics' used so that you might see 'Israel' in the politics section but have to click on it to see all of the subtopics - just a possible way of keeping things tidier.

My main concern here is over whether even with "Stickies" that the there would be politics posted else where - some people have no self control

[Alsiony]

Why don't we all just be a bit liberal about it all? Keep the politics room and let people decide whether to visit threads there or just completely ignore them.
Jarkko - what are you thinking about it all at the mo, in the light of this discussion so far?

A
x

[B4real]

So far I have managed to keep away from this thread as I am not politically motivated in any way. After reading some of these posts I can see why I am this way. All I have to say is that this is Jarkko's site and he can do with it what he wants. He has very democratically (politically) asked our opinions but he doesn't have to do what we say.

Yes, some of Leonard's song are political - but they are songs!! and I think we are here for the sole purpose of supporting Leonard and not discussing politics. A secondary thing occurs here too - friendships are made through a common interest in Leonard - a wonderful and enjoyable occurrence and maybe that is reinforced in the politics section too, but I think it would still happen in normal posts.

Still, I have no objection to the politics section being retained because I have never gone there and never will. To me it simply doesn't exist.

I suppose you could politically say, that this is democracy having its way

[Cate]

Looks as though the consensus is against you, and include me in the consensus.

Interesting interpretation of the posts. You certainly see things in a unique way as I've not seen a single post 'against' Jarrko just friendly people trying to help problem solve what seems to be becoming a headache to him. Make sure you don’t include me in your eyeballed ‘consensuses’ for without hesitation I would stand firmly behind our considerate and thoughtful host who has made all of us welcome here – even those who show little consideration or respect themselves.

[seadove]

I would like to comment as follows:

1. Whether we like it or not Leonard is also a political icon. It is a fact that when he came to Israel he donated his income of that particular concert toward a particular political theme.

2. There is no boundry to what must or must not be included in a forum even if it is meant to worship a talented artist. If it's the political section we are discussing to remove them why not remove the other sections as well so that we can eleminate the jokes and other subjects.

3. Politics is not a dirty word. It is there and it is in our daily life. There is no sense in pretending that it does not exist. To sweep it under the carpet seems to me to be a quite a stupid act and someone mentioned that it will eventually pop up in other sections of this formidable forum.

4. Being that we all know from what material Leonard is made up of I won't mind other sections such as sex and religion. Why not?

In view of the above points I think we should be brave enough to leave the poli alone. It's safer this way, just like the freely available condoms in most toilets in public places.