rags of light

[charlajoy]

[charlajoy]

When Leonard says that there is a war between the woman and the man it doesn't necessarily imply that they need to be fighting it.

[quote/]

Dear Lazariuk, I didn't mean war of that sort. I thought I had clarified that war meant "engagement" to me. The engaging part is the necessary component to a relationship. I think that when two people quit wanting to engage, that things turn sour. Engagement means coming to terms with each other, being part of the overall scheme, etc. Being withdrawn or seeking solace elsewhere is not engaging with your partner, but with someone else.

Why not just check on how you feel and how you behave when you are holding that belief that your husband hated you and ask yourself if you can find any good reason to hold on to it? If that is the scrutiny you are speaking about you won't have to let it go. It will let go of you.

[quote/]

How I feel? not hateful of him, if that's what you might mean. How I feel? Well, not anything but healed at the moment, whole, not angry or bitter. I can't figure what you are talking about "it will let go of you?" Did I miss something? Do you mean perhaps a judgment against the man? It wasn't a judgment. He had wanted out, but didn't have the courage. We were Christians who had been told that you stick with, no matter what you're feeling, and Ithink he was resentful of my being there and his having to keep us when he wanted something else. Does that answer it? Plus, there were alot of other things involved. It isn't simple. I think this all started with my confession that I had a spasm in the soul when I discovered that my husband at the time didn't really want me. That does happen, you know. Both ways, both sexes. It takes effort. Come'on....peace! (I looked up the root meaning for hatred and came up with intense dislike of someone, detesting...I think rejection is something you can do to someone you don't like). Charlajoypeacelove

one more little thing: "there is a war" doesn't have to mean that it's between the two people. It could refer to the outside forces against the two people.

[lazariuk]

one more little thing: "there is a war" doesn't have to mean that it's between the two people. It could refer to the outside forces against the two people.

All that matters to me is in the in-between.
I think that is what Leonard's song is about but I could be wrong.

[charlajoy]

To Lazariuk,

This is what "There is a War" means to me:
There is a war between the rich and poor,
a war between the man and the woman.
There is a war between the ones who say there is a war
and the ones who say there isn't.

(there will always be differences, conflict...)

Why don't you come on back to the war, that's right, get in it,
why don't you come on back to the war, it's just beginning.
Why don't you come on back to the war, don't be a tourist,
why don't you come on back to the war, before it hurts us,
why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get nervous.

In this sense, there is no resolution--no peace--without "engagement"---Leonard says "come back to the war before it hurts us"

If you were concerned with my former relationship being laced with violence, especially perpetrated toward the man, it never happened. In fact, no engagement of wills happened, therefore no action at all, not even resolution or violence. It takes two to engage. Rules for engagement are this: both people must want to be actively involved with the other and choose to engage in the conflict of differences with the attitude that the "other" is not the enemy. The enemy is the pressure (whatever force is may be using a variety of vehicles) that seeks to come between the two. Somewhere there's a Leonard Cohen lyric which expresses the evil of the thing that comes between the two people. I would try to find it if you really needed it. Thx for listening. Charlajoy

[lazariuk]

Somewhere there's a Leonard Cohen lyric which expresses the evil of the thing that comes between the two people. I would try to find it if you really needed it. Thx for listening. Charlajoy

hi charlajoy

I like to think that you are comfortable having this discussion with me but if you are not please do let me know. That was a very generous offer above to find a Leonard Cohen lyric for me and maybe I will ask you to do so but first let me offer something in return that might eliminate the need.
I have quoted Leonard in the past as saying "there is only one thing going on and that one should never even hint that there might be something else" but those might not be his exact words although I felt that I had gotten the gist of what he said. If you want I think I can find the exact phrasing and the context in which it was said. Let me know if that interests you.

Jack

[charlajoy]

Jack,
The one thing going on for me on this particular track is to be understood! I'm trying. Anyway, no need to obtain that because I do believe it, and it certainly sounds like Leonard to say something like that. If you're on the brilliant side, and you very well are, then maybe you are saying to me that it's not necessary to find the quote because it's not needed for proving the point? And maybe, in being just like myself, I am reading too deeply, and you're not saying anything close to that. BTW, Mother Teresa's prayer was to understand, not be understood. I find I haven't been able to pray that yet. Charlajoy

[lazariuk]

BTW, Mother Teresa's prayer was to understand, not be understood. I find I haven't been able to pray that yet. Charlajoy

are you sure it was Teresa? Sounds like

Prayer Of Saint Francis
Lord make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
And where there is sadness, joy.

O divine master grant that I may
not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love
For it is in giving that we receive-
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned.
And it's in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen

I sometimes think it is men's job to understand and women's job for their feelings to be understood. You are all such a sweet mystery.

[charlajoy]

Jack,

You are quite right on the quote, thanks!

Lazariuk typed, "You are all such a sweet mystery."

Yes...
mysteries,
in our rags of light
all dressed to kill

And... sweet mystery? do you speak as a man who's been connected to the mystery?

charlajoy

[lazariuk]

And... sweet mystery? do you speak as a man who's been connected to the mystery?
charlajoy

I think I have slipped into mystery from time to time. I certainly don't think I would want to make any false claims in that regard so i wouldn't say more without knowing what kind of connection you are curious about.

[charlajoy]

Jack,

Oh, it's up to you; I make no qualifiers, except that you had implied all/most are sweet mysteries. It was a question I had, if you want to answer, that stemmed from my wondering whether your appreciation of the mystery is due to your viewing the mystery from afar or whether your claim of its sweetness is intact after your involvement with the mystery! You see what I mean? Yes. So many times the mystery ceases to be that--no more corridors, no more unfolding petals, no more attraction after the mystery has been managed or "had." Just as I believe the deity is within every man (and I mean man, not beastially-controlled brute) the deity is within every woman (using the same qualifiers)--only it is evidenced in a different manner, as another part of the deity, so to speak--and there are only so many faces of God to appreciate or reject. I think it all comes down to how the mystery is experienced, how someone will hold it, touch it, handle it (with care). But for this person, the mystery is never-ending. There, I think I just told you everything I know. Charlajoy

[lazariuk]

I think it all comes down to how the mystery is experienced, how someone will hold it, touch it, handle it (with care). But for this person, the mystery is never-ending. There, I think I just told you everything I know. Charlajoy

You certainly told me a lot. I was playing around with similar thoughts in another thread recently with a bit of a compliment to leonard of how pure the you sounds when in a song he helped write it comes out as "I just want to hold you as Bernadette would do"

[charlajoy]

Responding to Jack:

She [Bernadette] saw the Queen of Heaven once
And kept the vision in her soul
No one believed what she had seen
No one believed what she heard
That there were sorrows to be healed
And mercy, mercy in this world

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see G-d" Matthew 5:8

But...aren't the lyrics, "Won't you let me hold you like Bernadette would do?"

Charlajoy

[lazariuk]

But...aren't the lyrics, "Won't you let me hold you like Bernadette would do?"

Yes you are right. It is so like me to jump from the "I want" right past the "won't you let" . Someday I'll get it right.

[charlajoy]

In response to Jack's quote above:

Reminds me of Leonard's "even in your arms I know I'll never get it right"

"manifesto
of my soul
you make love to me
from that tower." (charlajoy)

From "The Unclean Start" in Stranger Music (not that I have to be right, but for the pause of being able to use Leonard as argument)

"And why should she since I hated her because her beauty died."

Dear Jack, are you certain that men don't/can't hate their wives? He does refer to her as his wife in "The Unclean Start." Really, I feel like I am arguing, for no good reason, and so perhaps I should not be doing this. I'm finding my way in a new environment, this forum.

[lazariuk]

Dear Jack, are you certain that men don't/can't hate their wives? He does refer to her as his wife in "The Unclean Start." Really, I feel like I am arguing, for no good reason, and so perhaps I should not be doing this. I'm finding my way in a new environment, this forum.

Someone else said some general thing about men not hating their wives. That is not what I said. I said that I think it is impossible that your husband hated you. I never mentioned Leonard hating his wife. As far as I know he was never married. In the poem you mentioned of him saying that he hated her because her beauty died and then a little while later he watched as her beauty returned. That doesn't sound like much of a hatred.

In the song Anthem Leonard sings

We asked for signs
the signs were sent:
the birth betrayed
the marriage spent
Yeah the widowhood
of every government --
signs for all to see.

I think that we will always find the signs that we are looking for. If we don't like what we are finding then we can always look for something different. But maybe you know that and you were just looking to have an argument with me and that OK. I certainly don't mind the odd wrestle in the hay.