Hi Tom,
Thanks for the invite - it's been a long time since I had a real "literary" discussion. Here's my contribution: in 1975 while living in a small house on Hydra (and pregnant) -in a house on the hill above LC's - (which I could clearly see from my rooftop terrace), I had two English language books given to me (they were not easy to obtain on Hydra in those days): "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," and "One Hundred Years of Solitude" maybe it was my condition (and yes, my daughter - started on Hydra - is now 30) or maybe it was living alone for the first time in my life- but both books made an enormous impression on me. Years later I re-read "Zen and ..." and was appalled at Pirsig's treatment of his son- so cold and impersonal and analytical - funny, before I became a parent, that element did not even occur to me - but I still loved the book - His son BTW: in real life was tragically stabbed to death at the age of 20 outside the Zen Centre in San Francisco - still, I think, trying to emulate his father.
I learned that in reading these classics you take what's there for you though it may change over time - and recognize it may not be the same for everyone ("a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest") with best regards...
Leonard's voice and tour
Hi Tom and Jazz,
In Israel too Hesse becomes popular periodically, but in cycles of about 30 years or so. The last time was in the early 1970’s, when many of his books were republished, but it seems that since then he had fallen out of grace. I’ve tried some of his books but was not hooked.
With Pirsig, on the other hand, I’ve made a serious effort to get to the bottom of what he means. I was very impressed by the book for a while, but when I thought about it later I felt it didn’t give me very much to hold on to. Richard Bach, on the other hand, was a disappointment from the beginning; what did you find so appealing there, Tom?
There is no doubt, though, about One Hundred Years of Solitude. It remained a great favorite of mine for over 30 years now. I’ve enjoyed also several other books by Garcia Markes, but none as much as that first one I’ve read. And regarding the fact that there is so much fantasy in the book, it was a surprise to discover over the years how much of it is based on actual events and life experience of the author. Personal life is the point of departure for all writers, but only the really great can turn it, through some magic, into something the far surpasses their experience. This is not the case with Pirsig, for example.
In Israel too Hesse becomes popular periodically, but in cycles of about 30 years or so. The last time was in the early 1970’s, when many of his books were republished, but it seems that since then he had fallen out of grace. I’ve tried some of his books but was not hooked.
With Pirsig, on the other hand, I’ve made a serious effort to get to the bottom of what he means. I was very impressed by the book for a while, but when I thought about it later I felt it didn’t give me very much to hold on to. Richard Bach, on the other hand, was a disappointment from the beginning; what did you find so appealing there, Tom?
There is no doubt, though, about One Hundred Years of Solitude. It remained a great favorite of mine for over 30 years now. I’ve enjoyed also several other books by Garcia Markes, but none as much as that first one I’ve read. And regarding the fact that there is so much fantasy in the book, it was a surprise to discover over the years how much of it is based on actual events and life experience of the author. Personal life is the point of departure for all writers, but only the really great can turn it, through some magic, into something the far surpasses their experience. This is not the case with Pirsig, for example.
Hi Jazz, and Doron,
first, I did not ever find Richard Bach appealing, quite contrary, but that was maybe because we *have* to read Jonathan Livingston Seagull in 7th grade of elementary school (along with Saint Exupery's The Little Prince), and then again in 1st grade of high school (what is, I'd say, simply the lack of coordination between school levels in Croatia:-)
Maybe Bach's A Gift of Wings is little better (Livingston is far to much of shallow alegory for me, thus suitable for children, as The Little Prince), but I really don't know, I just browsed thru it on the shelf and it seemed better than Livingston. - Only what I wanted to say that, I think, the level of readers' response deteriorated much in last 5-6 years. Namely, before, when people read mystical or spiritual literature, that was Hermann Hesse, Richard Bach, Saint-Exupery, Khalil Gibran (which were all /re/published by same publisher here in 2nd half of 1990s). Of course, people read Carlos Castaneda, but you knew what you read.
But after Paulo Coelho came into the scene, with that bad novel The Alchemist which I did not finish - or that started even earlier, with James Redfield's The Celestine Prophecy (which is simply awfully badly written book, by totally illiterate man) - it seems that whoever reaches for the so-called spiritual book, doesn't reach for Hesse or even Bach anymore (whatever we think about them as writers), but for Paulo Coelho, Da Vinci Code, Deepak Chopra etc. Criteria has fallen down. So, leaving Hesse out as some kind of better writer, I now think that Gibran, Bach were little on higher level of literature than Coelho, who is simply, I think, awfull. It's not even dissapointment, as you said for Bach, Doron, because I did not expect nothing, just wanted to see what's that.
Re: Pirsig, I am always somehow attracted by such novels, but I think that was what stopped me, Doron, certain feeling of shallowness, feeling that I don't know what he wants, than to say the things we know. The fact that he is Phaedro and that he was "cured" by treatmans and has to rediscover his former nature becomes very clear in first chapters. And I agree, Jazz, although I am not parent (only 27 years old, that's what I am), that narrator's objective attitide to his son Chris was interesitng. Maybe that's analitical Zen;-)
Garcia Marquez, yes. I read One Hundred Years of Solitude two or three times, once in college course, and he's out of any doubt today. (Although he starts to repeat himself; his latest novel Memory of My Melancholy Whores was *very* predictable. - Yeah, his every book is immediately translated here and sold out.) What's interesting, Jazz, is that you read it in time of its release. Not mentioning Hydra - how did you finish there? I guess it was different in 60 and 70s, but I can't say, as I never will live thru that period, and can only feel it thru novels like Pirsig's (I guess that atmosphere of time is what's most interesting to me in that book. But I love road movies also, and what we called Americana in Europe [in US it's called alt-country - Hennig will know better:-)], so the myth of America is still alive in cultural consciousness.)
I agree that we hear what we want to hear at the moment... Now, in midst of reading thru Alain Robbe-Grillet's La Maison de rendez-Vous, I went to my bookshelf and took Marguerite Duras's Moderato Cantabile and 10:30 pm, on a Summer Evening (Dix heures et demie du soir en ete), and realised that, although I read both last Spring (along with The Lover, La Douleur and La Vie Materielle), I felt the urge to read it again, as as I browsed thru the books, I realised I read now those sentences differently.
Garcia Marquez is good example of good writer who can become popular, and I think that was the case wiht Hesse before. You know, I don't want to make an impression that I think people can't chose what they read or be some kind of purist. It's all because of market, and in last ten years (with the spread of internet also) we lost way in flood of movies, muisc and books and many (if not all) criteria has been lost. Of course, there's other side of internet - all music can be released and we never had so much good independent music, and even people like Leonard can now reach many listeners and new fans thru web sites, and we have greatest production of independent films so far, and people's writings on the internet...
But story of Garcia Marquez has also his back side - as much he is great, he has popular appeal, and leaves many better witers in background. Latin America has produced some of the greatest novelists in the world. Like Ernesto Sabato, who is great (I read only The Tunnel so far), and Carlos Fuentes, who can produce only masterpieces and who's, like, one of really great literary giants and, as Wikipedia says, "one of the best-known living novelists and essayists in the Spanish-speaking world". I can only highly recommend Aura and The Orange Tree, which are masterpieces, while I didn't have the courage yet to read Terra Nostra, which is, they say, one of best novels in history of literature. But I guess that you all are familiar with people like Fuentes and Sabato, but I just wanted to mention them in this context, when Garcia Marquez was already involved:-)
first, I did not ever find Richard Bach appealing, quite contrary, but that was maybe because we *have* to read Jonathan Livingston Seagull in 7th grade of elementary school (along with Saint Exupery's The Little Prince), and then again in 1st grade of high school (what is, I'd say, simply the lack of coordination between school levels in Croatia:-)
Maybe Bach's A Gift of Wings is little better (Livingston is far to much of shallow alegory for me, thus suitable for children, as The Little Prince), but I really don't know, I just browsed thru it on the shelf and it seemed better than Livingston. - Only what I wanted to say that, I think, the level of readers' response deteriorated much in last 5-6 years. Namely, before, when people read mystical or spiritual literature, that was Hermann Hesse, Richard Bach, Saint-Exupery, Khalil Gibran (which were all /re/published by same publisher here in 2nd half of 1990s). Of course, people read Carlos Castaneda, but you knew what you read.
But after Paulo Coelho came into the scene, with that bad novel The Alchemist which I did not finish - or that started even earlier, with James Redfield's The Celestine Prophecy (which is simply awfully badly written book, by totally illiterate man) - it seems that whoever reaches for the so-called spiritual book, doesn't reach for Hesse or even Bach anymore (whatever we think about them as writers), but for Paulo Coelho, Da Vinci Code, Deepak Chopra etc. Criteria has fallen down. So, leaving Hesse out as some kind of better writer, I now think that Gibran, Bach were little on higher level of literature than Coelho, who is simply, I think, awfull. It's not even dissapointment, as you said for Bach, Doron, because I did not expect nothing, just wanted to see what's that.
Re: Pirsig, I am always somehow attracted by such novels, but I think that was what stopped me, Doron, certain feeling of shallowness, feeling that I don't know what he wants, than to say the things we know. The fact that he is Phaedro and that he was "cured" by treatmans and has to rediscover his former nature becomes very clear in first chapters. And I agree, Jazz, although I am not parent (only 27 years old, that's what I am), that narrator's objective attitide to his son Chris was interesitng. Maybe that's analitical Zen;-)
Garcia Marquez, yes. I read One Hundred Years of Solitude two or three times, once in college course, and he's out of any doubt today. (Although he starts to repeat himself; his latest novel Memory of My Melancholy Whores was *very* predictable. - Yeah, his every book is immediately translated here and sold out.) What's interesting, Jazz, is that you read it in time of its release. Not mentioning Hydra - how did you finish there? I guess it was different in 60 and 70s, but I can't say, as I never will live thru that period, and can only feel it thru novels like Pirsig's (I guess that atmosphere of time is what's most interesting to me in that book. But I love road movies also, and what we called Americana in Europe [in US it's called alt-country - Hennig will know better:-)], so the myth of America is still alive in cultural consciousness.)
I agree that we hear what we want to hear at the moment... Now, in midst of reading thru Alain Robbe-Grillet's La Maison de rendez-Vous, I went to my bookshelf and took Marguerite Duras's Moderato Cantabile and 10:30 pm, on a Summer Evening (Dix heures et demie du soir en ete), and realised that, although I read both last Spring (along with The Lover, La Douleur and La Vie Materielle), I felt the urge to read it again, as as I browsed thru the books, I realised I read now those sentences differently.
Garcia Marquez is good example of good writer who can become popular, and I think that was the case wiht Hesse before. You know, I don't want to make an impression that I think people can't chose what they read or be some kind of purist. It's all because of market, and in last ten years (with the spread of internet also) we lost way in flood of movies, muisc and books and many (if not all) criteria has been lost. Of course, there's other side of internet - all music can be released and we never had so much good independent music, and even people like Leonard can now reach many listeners and new fans thru web sites, and we have greatest production of independent films so far, and people's writings on the internet...
But story of Garcia Marquez has also his back side - as much he is great, he has popular appeal, and leaves many better witers in background. Latin America has produced some of the greatest novelists in the world. Like Ernesto Sabato, who is great (I read only The Tunnel so far), and Carlos Fuentes, who can produce only masterpieces and who's, like, one of really great literary giants and, as Wikipedia says, "one of the best-known living novelists and essayists in the Spanish-speaking world". I can only highly recommend Aura and The Orange Tree, which are masterpieces, while I didn't have the courage yet to read Terra Nostra, which is, they say, one of best novels in history of literature. But I guess that you all are familiar with people like Fuentes and Sabato, but I just wanted to mention them in this context, when Garcia Marquez was already involved:-)
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
Well, the Croatian ministry of education should surely be commended on their interesting choice of textbooks. I agree with you, Tom, on Richard Bach, Castaneda, Coelho & Co. Gibran is perhaps a little different, especially due to his very beautiful Arabic style (didn’t LC relate to him somewhere?). And certainly The Little Prince; I had a professor in university who used it as a textbook in a philosophy class. According to him, if I remember correctly, the prince’s voyage represented the migration of the soul, and the different people he meets each represents a certain philosophical attitude. I thought he had a point there, and still regard this book more seriously than the rest you’ve mentioned.
Hesse, of course, is in a different department due to the quality of his writing, even if he’s somewhat dated. After all, he won the Nobel Prize, and those are not handed easily. Of course, many great writers who should have won it did not, and they comprise a list as distinguished as the winners. Some of the winners seem quite obscure now, but if you check them out you may have some interesting surprises. For example, Iceland’s Halldor Laxness, whom I’ve seen mentioned in a list of obscure winners, is a wonderful writer. To say nothing of Elias Canetti, one of the truly great writers of the century.
I haven’t read yet the last by Garcia Marquez, but I loved his autobiographical book which was called in English Living to Tell the Tale (by the way, did you know that his son is a quite talented film and TV director in Hollywood of all places?).
Quality and quantity: Yes, we are flooded, so much is being published and who can follow even the most important things? And post-modernism had a devastating effect in blurring the lines between the good and the bad. It sounds snobbish, but we must somehow believe in quality or we will drown (Pirsig had a point there, although he was defeated in the attempt to define quality; perhaps it can’t be defined, but you know it when you meet it).
There’s much more I want to say in response, but no time, no time!
Hesse, of course, is in a different department due to the quality of his writing, even if he’s somewhat dated. After all, he won the Nobel Prize, and those are not handed easily. Of course, many great writers who should have won it did not, and they comprise a list as distinguished as the winners. Some of the winners seem quite obscure now, but if you check them out you may have some interesting surprises. For example, Iceland’s Halldor Laxness, whom I’ve seen mentioned in a list of obscure winners, is a wonderful writer. To say nothing of Elias Canetti, one of the truly great writers of the century.
I haven’t read yet the last by Garcia Marquez, but I loved his autobiographical book which was called in English Living to Tell the Tale (by the way, did you know that his son is a quite talented film and TV director in Hollywood of all places?).
Quality and quantity: Yes, we are flooded, so much is being published and who can follow even the most important things? And post-modernism had a devastating effect in blurring the lines between the good and the bad. It sounds snobbish, but we must somehow believe in quality or we will drown (Pirsig had a point there, although he was defeated in the attempt to define quality; perhaps it can’t be defined, but you know it when you meet it).
There’s much more I want to say in response, but no time, no time!
-
st theresa
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:24 pm
- Location: Edmonton Alberta
re where does donovan fit in
I was a Cohen fan in the late 60's early 70's and a Donovan fan too. I never thought too much about Donovan untl recently --about a year or so ago when I came across one of his songs that I had never heard. That caused me to look at the lyrics of his songs and to actually , painfully write the words of one song out, by listening to it over and over, so that I could send the words to a friend whom I wanted to share them with. The name of the song is There is an Ocean--Another song that I noticed at that time was Happiness Runs. I was blown away by the spiritual depth especially coming at the time that it did when most of the poplular songs were quite dance music compatible. I was a little disturbed see a commercial on tv usng the lyrics of Happiness runs just a week or so ago. But no more disturbed than I was to see Dylan's music used commercially. Time marches on....
Donovan Leitch never seemed to me to be in the front line as a lyric writer but he was a good songwriter and dserved a better deal than he got. For a long time his music was treated as a joke but he wrote some very fine songs and yes it is a pity to see material that had meaning being used to sell X, Y or Z.
But then that can (usually)only happen with the artist's agreement?
But then that can (usually)only happen with the artist's agreement?