leonardcohenforum.com

(continuing with...)

MARIANNE AND LEONARD
Interview with Marianne Ihlen
by Kari Hesthamar, Norway, 2005
SO LONG, MARIANNE

Marianne-Kari_2.mp3
(time: 3.50 min; size: 3.7 meg
additional audio processing; - killed the mic rumble; - renormalized to 97%)

audio source: http://www.nrk.no/programmer/radio/radi ... 15921.html

-------------------------------------

translated transcription from: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/marianne2006.html
...

MARIANNE: All the weird stuff that is written,
which is just wild fantasy. Very well. I have never
had the strength to describe how it was. There are very,
very, very many who have wanted to meet me,
but it has sort of not... I have never understood why.
But it is much easier to talk about these things now
than it has ever been. And that is the only reason that
I have felt like meeting you.

NARRATOR: I have seen the picture of her
on the back of the record sleeve for "Songs from a Room".
Marianne in a white, Greek room. Sitting in front of the
typewriter belonging to Leonard Cohen. She looked so
incredibly innocent and young.
Cohen said she was the most beautiful woman he had ever met.

MARIANNE: I never felt that I looked like much at all.
I didn't believe it when Leonard said
”you are the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen”.
And he has continued saying that.
But what I mean is that... I think I had too round a face.
So I have gone round looking down all my life.
But after all I did have… you know the sun bleached my hair,
and after all you were … in Greece you were so blonde,
so blonde, so blonde, because there they were mostly dark.
Skinny. Almost no boobs. laughs To my great regret.

NARRATOR: Leonard then, what did he look like?

MARIANNE: Oh, he was beautiful!
Haven't you seen pictures of Leonard when he was young?
Oh yes, you have. He was marvellous. Neither did he think
that he looked like much. We both had problems.
You have no idea. We often stood in front of the mirror
before going out and wondered who we were today and stuff like that.
Oh god, how strange we human beings are, you know...
Look, there's a duck coming...

NARRATOR: We are in her little house, at the beachside at Larkollen,
where she grew up with her grandmother during the war.

MARIANNE: I am so used to this curtain, but for you
I actually ought to have raised it.
(pulls up the French blinds)

NARRATOR: She has been married for 25 years.
Is still pretty with grey hair and lines in her face.
Only a few weeks old Marianne was placed
on her grandmother's kitchen table.

MARIANNE: And then my grandmother relates:
”And so I lifted you up, and then I looked deep into your eyes,
and I said: Finally you have arrived, my little princess!”
And then she had this kind of thing…
”I see, and I know, Marianne”.
And she said this once when I was little.
It was that: ”You are going to meet a man
who speaks with a tongue of gold.”
And when I sort of think of the choice of men later,
well it has been... I would say... the most golden tongue
of them all has without a doubt been Leonard Cohen, anyway.

Leonard Cohen: ”If it be your will”
If it be your will
That a voice be true
From this broken hill
I will sing to you
From this broken hill
All your praises they shall ring
If it be your will
To let me sing

MARIANNE: I had after all a long time ago a great urge
to be creative myself. Well, I was going to try to get
into the Theatre School. And I was so opposed
by my mother and father that I lost all my courage
and didn't dare. And I believe it was this which
in a way made me run away. That was what made
the whole thing collapse.

(continuing with...)

MARIANNE AND LEONARD
Interview with Marianne Ihlen
by Kari Hesthamar, Norway, 2005
SO LONG, MARIANNE

Marianne-Kari_3.mp3
(time: 14 mins; size: 13 meg
(large one, but worth it for duet at the end!)

audio source: http://www.nrk.no/programmer/radio/radi ... 15921.html

-------------------------------------

translated transcription from: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/marianne2006.html
...


NARRATOR: It was the end of the 50s,
and she didn't even know that Leonard Cohen existed.
Marianne was 22 years old, and in love with
the author and bohemian Axel Jensen. (well-known Norwegian author)

MARIANNE: He was going travelling.
He was off to a country he had never been to.
He had travelled around the whole world before he met me.
He managed to pull me up by my roots.

And so we made our way down to Greece in -58.
I ran away from home.

NARRATOR: And because the boat from Athens
happened to stop there, they landed on Hydra,
where a lot of other artists had already settled.

MARIANNE: This isn't just something I am making up.
Not because it was my island, but it is
the prettiest island in the Aegean.
Anyhow, first of all the harbour is formed like a horseshoe.
And then the little white-washed town
just crawls up along the mountain all around the place.
And there are no cars. There are only stairways.

And the boat stops far from shore.
And so you were ferried in by smaller craft.
And I arrived in mid December. And there was storm,
there was rain, and it was so cold.

And then there was only electricity one hour in the evening,
and one hour in the morning.
And paraffin lamps.

Leonard Cohen: (strums)

Marianne: To begin with we found a very small house
that we rented, with an outdoor loo and everything.
And so Axel received an advance for ”Line”,
or was it ”Ikaros”…? (well-known Norwegian novels)

And we went round searching for a house.
And so we found one that was magnificent.
With a huge hole in the floor and whatever.
I mean, it was mostly ruins, but it cost 13 000 Norwegian kroner,
so we couldn't afford it.
And again we rushed off. Onward. And we found one that cost 11 000.
And it looked like an eagle's nest.
You know

”stuck in the mountain”.

Now that house is a … yes, it's owned by one of the biggest
shipping magnates in Athens.
And so now it is … it has a swimming pool…
It is situated so… You have it there!
It hangs up there! Here is the port down here.
Then we had a dog and a pussycat.

INTERVIEWER: How beautiful.
Is that you?

MARIANNE: Yes, that's me. That's the way up to the house.
Then you climb the stairs there. That was the good time.
But at a very early stage there was something that came amiss.

Leonard Cohen: ”Tonight will be fine”
Sometimes I find I get to thinking of the past

Marianne: mmmm

Leonard Cohen:
We swore to each other then that our love would surely last
You kept right on loving, I went on a fast
Now I am too thin and your love is too vast
But I know
from your eyes
and I know
from your smile
that tonight
will be fine,
will be fine, will be fine, will be fine
for a while.

MARIANNE: You see, Axel and I we walked barefoot.
We had two clean T-shirts and two pairs of trousers each,
and were poor. But we were clean.
The first prominent man we met was Onassis.
You see, the island consisted of some enormously rich families,
who no longer lived there permanently.
They came down on weekends, with baskets of flowers,
and a cook's maid and servant and all that.
So we were invited to these "cocktail parties",
as they were then called, six o'clock,
”for drinks”.
”Before dinner.”
And we landed in that…
and there we met Onassis.

Jacqueline Kennedy was there,
and Princess Margareth and…
And then all the famous artists arrived.

Leonard Cohen: (strums)

Marianne: So you see, the first year on Hydra was fantastic,
because he wrote and he wrote and he wrote.
And I ran down and shopped and bought food and …
Yes, I was his Greek Muse, who sat at his feet.
And he was the creative one.

But then all these other women entered our life.
First time it was one with dark hair, and then...
What did Marianne do, then? Yes, she dyed her hair.
Jet black. Woke up in the morning and sort of saw
black hair on the pillow and wondered
"god, who is this?" (laughs)
It was damned tough. It sure was.

And also Axel had to go to Norway all the time.
Yes, for the publishing of books and god knows what.
Oh, it's such a long story
that it can hardly be made all that short,
but...

NARRATOR: The story I have always heard is that
Leonard Cohen stole Marianne from Axel Jensen.
In reality it was always new women who were taking her place.
Finally she decided to leave Axel and Hydra.

MARIANNE: ”All right",
I was strong enough to say:
"now I'll travel home to my father,
and he'll be proven right.”
It wasn't Axel I was going to marry.

INTERVIEWER: So then you returned to Norway, is that it?

MARIANNE: Yes, but before that
I had to pass by my best friends in Athens.

And who but Axel Jensen comes visiting.
At that point he'd been boozing for 6 weeks.
The woman who was to come didn't show up.
Sold the ticket, pocketed the cash.

(sighs)
And that evening he said he wanted to marry me.

And so I said yes,
because that was what I really wanted.
That was after all what I wished to do.
It was what I had hoped would happen.

I do not regret it...

Leonard Cohen: ”Stranger Song”
It’s true that all the men you knew
were dealers
who said they were through
with dealing
Every time you gave them shelter

MARIANNE: I love this song.

Leonard Cohen: I know that kind of man
It’s hard to hold the hand of anyone
who's reaching for the sky just to surrender

NARRATOR: It was the summer of 1958,
and Marianne and Axel were married in the English church in Athens.

Leonard Cohen: who's reaching to the sky just to surrender.

NARRATOR: A year later Marianne was expecting a child.
Little Axel was underway.

Leonard Cohen: And then sweeping up the jokers
that he left behind
you find he did not leave you very much
not even laughter
Like any dealer he was watching
for the card that is so high and wild
he’ ll never need to deal another

MARIANNE: But what happened afterwards was just sad,
because I went home, had my baby.
By then Axel had published a new novel,
and couldn't stay in Norway very long at a time because
he would then have to pay taxes to Norway.
So I didn't come down with my baby before …
Little Axel was just over 4 months, 4 ½ months.
And by then Axel was way over the hills again.
In the meantime he had found yet another woman.
And in the middle of all this commotion
Leonard Cohen shows up.

Leonard Cohen: (strums)

Marianne: I was standing in the shop with my basket
waiting to pick up bottled water and milk.
And he is standing in the door way with the sun behind him.
And then you don't see the face, you just see the contours.
And so I hear his voice, saying:

”Would you like to join us, we’re sitting outside?”

And I reply thank you, and I finish my shopping.
Then I go outside. And I sit down at this table
where there were 3-4 people sitting,
who lived in Hydra at the time.



INTERVIEWER: Can you remember what he looked like?

MARIANNE: He was wearing khaki trousers,
which were a shade more green.
And also he had his beloved… what we in the old days
called tennis shoes. And he also always wore shirts
with rolled up sleeves. In addition he had a beautiful
little sixpence cap.

What I didn't know when I met him was that he knew everything
about what had happened before I returned.
Because after all he had been there, and realised
what was going on. So I think that already when he saw me
he had enormous compassion for me and my child.
But I remember well that when my eyes met his eyes
I felt it throughout my body. You know what that is.
Drums her fingers It is utterly incredible.

So then I was on my way up Kala Pegadia, to my little house.
And the last hump is very, very steep, so you are completely
drenched in sweat when you reach the house. And the basket
was very heavy. And there she was, that sweet little Eveganina,
who had been with Axel and played with him.
And so she left. And then I was very…
I was almost a bit intoxicated.
Right away I put on some music, I remember.
Danced around a bit, and thought it all of a sudden
was such fun to be with my son and...
felt it was simple and fine and...
And even if he wasn't put to bed at once it was all right.
A lightness had come over me.

Leonard Cohen: ”I’m Your Man”
If you want a lover
I’ll do anything you ask me to
And if you want another kind of love
I’ll wear a mask for you
If you want a partner
Take my hand
Or if you want to strike me down in anger
Here I stand
I’m your man


NARRATOR: This was May 1960,
and Marianne was 25 years old.
But even though she danced herself home after her first meeting
with Leonard Cohen, it was still Axel Jensen she was waiting for.
He had set off on a boating trip to find out if he ought to choose
Marianne or his American mistress.

MARIANNE: So I remember when we were saying goodbye to him
and seeing him sail off I actually was a bit happy, because
I felt that after all perhaps there was still hope.
Therefore I invited some friends up to my little house,
since I couldn't go out all that much, as I had the baby.
And I can remember it was the blossoming season.
It was the end of May, and the whole veranda
was full of these flowers which are white in the middle and
yellow all round. So I'd pinch the flowers off, and put them
in an envelope with a small note on which I wrote: ”I love you.”

NARRATOR: A young American, who was visiting Marianne,
noticed her putting the flowers in the letter.
Next day he continued his journey to Athens.
Marianne's letter was sent with the same ship.

MARIANNE: And that was a strange story,
because Axel Jensen hadn't intended to go off on that boat
and find out whom he really loved.
He voyaged to the next island and met this woman,
and then the two of them sailed together to Athens.
And at American Express, next day, there they both were,
and Axel picked up his mail, opened that letter
and these flowers fell out.

As it happened this American was queuing beside them
waiting for his mail, and he thought:
”This must be the letter from Marianne.
This must be Axel.” After all he didn't know him.
So he took the ship back to Hydra.
And he came up to me, and he says:

”I just had to tell you, Marianne,
that they are together.”

”He's not out yachting to sound out his feelings.”
At that I understood now
it's all over.
(sighs)

No, ouff, I can't relate all of this here.
There has been so much. There's been so much.
I don't know how I have taken it,
when I think about it.


Now we need some tea..



Leonard Cohen: ”Hey that’s no way to say goodbye.”
I loved you in the morning,
our kisses deep and warm,
your hair upon the pillow,
like a sleepy golden storm,

MARIANNE: Mmm.
It's quite incredible. (sings)

VIRTUAL DUET - Leonard Cohen & Marianne!:

yes, many loved before us,
I know that we are not new,
in city and in forest
they smiled like me and you,

but now it’s come to distances
and both of us must try,
your eyes are soft with sorrow,
Hey, that’s no way to say goodbye.


Marianne: Great heavens, what an uproar all the time…

(...continuing with...)

MARIANNE AND LEONARD
Interview with Marianne Ihlen
by Kari Hesthamar, Norway, 2005
SO LONG, MARIANNE

Marianne-Kari_4.mp3
(time: 13 mins; size: 12.5 meg)


(audio source: http://www.nrk.no/programmer/radio/radi ... 15921.html

-------------------------------------

translated transcription from: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/marianne2006.html
...

Marianne: So Leonard and I began to meet.
Early in the day we would maybe go down to the beach.
Sometimes little Axel and I would accompany him
up to the small house he had rented, for it wasn't so high up.
And we'd prepare lunch.
And then little Axel would fall asleep,
and then he'd read poems for me, and then…
So we started seeing each other during the days.

But that story that Axel all the time…
”Leonard Cohen took my wife or whatever he calls it”
No, it was… that wasn't how it was.
He even drove me all the way home to Norway in this car
that Axel had brought with him down there.
I wasn't exactly pampered in being used to meeting a man
who behaved the way he did.
I have to say that.
He in fact reminded me very much of grandma.
Her energy, her enormous presence.
You could really trust in him.
It was like... is it really possible to be so fond of me
as he says he is? You know?!
I can impossibly be all that much.

He then drove me all the way home to Norway in this car.
That was when I understood this was something more than friendship.
But at that point I was knocked out.
I was very... that's when reactions set in.
One after the other.
But when he went back to Montreal it didn't take long
before I received a telegram:
”Have house, all I need is my woman and her son. Love Leonard.”
That's how it was.

NARRATOR: And Marianne emigrated from Oslo to Montreal
with tiny Axel and a couple of suitcases of clothes.

MARIANNE: Imagine, I emigrated.
And I remember little Axel and Leonard
sat in the bathtub writing on a typewriter under water. (laughs)

It's really weird to think about,
but when I saw Leonard's hands for the first time,
it was like seeing my father's hands.
Slightly stubby.
But he could type fast on a machine. laughter

There is a very beautiful poem which is unpublished.
And I have to show it to you.
I really am not much at reading, but I can try.

Music (Leonard Cohen: ”Undertow”)

MARIANNE:
This is for you
It is my full heart

LEONARD COHEN:
It is the book
I meant to read you when we were old
Now I am a shadow
I’m restless as an empire
You are the woman who released me
I saw you watching the moon
You did not hesitate to love me with it
At night I saw you dance alone
on the small wet pebbles of the shore line
And you welcomed me into the circle
More than a guest
All this happened in the truth of time
In the truth of flesh
I saw you with a child
You brought me to his perfume and his visions
Without demand of blood

Leonard Cohen: ”Undertow”
With a child in my arms
And a chill in my soul
And my heart the shape
Of a begging bowl

NARRATOR: Marianne, little Axel and Leonard
remained living in Montreal for a year before they returned to Hydra.

MARIANNE: Mmm,
how strange.
That's on Leonard's terrace. February –63. When Axel was three.
He's been wearing a T-shirt you see,
he is black and brown on his arms and legs, but not on his tummy.

INTERVIEWER: So how was Leonard as a father?

MARIANNE: Well, actually, he…
I was terrified that Axel was going to disturb him,
because he had to write.
But what happened
was that Axel would be lying prone on the floor drawing.
And didn't say a word.
He was a nightmare with me. Then he would… uhuhuhu.
You know what kids are like with mother.
And so then Leonard would elegantly open the door
into his tiny atelier, and say:

”Axel, I need your help.”

And then it would be deadly silent in there for two hours.
And little Axel drew and Leonard wrote.
That's how I experienced it.
And little Axel was enormously proud.
He called him Cohne.

Oh, those years were really good. Very good.
We sat in the sun and we lay in the sun, we walked in the sun,
we listened to music, we bathed, we played, we drank,
we discussed. There was writing and lovemaking and...
It was absolutely fabulous, you know, to have it like that.
During five years I didn't have shoes on my feet, you know.
Sure, sure, in the wintertime I had something on my feet,
but... And I met many beautiful people.
Now they are cast to the winds.
Some are dead. Many are dead…
Now I have to put the rolls in the oven.

Leonard Cohen: ”Dance Me to the End of Love”
Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin
Dance me through the panic ’til I’m gathered safely in
Lift me like an olive branch and be my homeward dove
Dance me to the end of love
Dance me to the end of love

Papers rustling

MARIANNE: More letters from Leonard.
Would you say there are many love letters, then?
I'm quite sure.
And there's Leonard's Russian bed.
Iron bed. Isn't it great?

INTERVIEWER: It's awesome..
And then that's you?

MARIANNE: Yes, that's me.
In my… my Mari Mekko dress.
I have been a model a lot.

INTERVIEWER: I must say you have really especially beautiful pictures.
This isn't one of those usual average family albums you have here.

MARIANNE: (laughs) No, it isn't.
But then again I have never lived one of those average family lives either,
I have to honestly admit.
After all that was what I was trying to escape from.

NARRATOR: Marianne and Leonard were lovers into their second year.
However the break-up with Axel still smarted.

MARIANNE: I had suffered such a big shock
that I was in a state of shock in which I sort of wasn't
neither here nor there. I didn't have a foothold.
And at the same time having a child and all.
It was really tough. I think that in many ways
I maybe was able to float
a bit above the difficulties which I found myself in the middle of.
I was not much present in myself.
But I didn't know that at the time.
So if he hadn't been so patient
then I don't know if we would have been together.
For when I was dancing Greek dances and drinking retsina
he would sit there waiting for me
till I was finished dancing and drinking my retsina.
And then we went home together.
And then it would be so incredibly peaceful
and so harmonious to be with him,
because there was such tranquillity.
One could in a way say that it was a bit old-fashioned.
The way you in many ways would think
it would be fantastic that a young boy can be, right?
And it made a strong impression on me.

Leonard Cohen: ”Because of”
Look at me, Leonard
Look at me one last time.

MARIANNE: (laughter) Yes…

then they bend over the bed
and cover me up like a baby
that is shivering
Like a baby
Like a baby…
because of a few songs...


MARIANNE: Yes, I guess I was seen for the first time, perhaps.
That is very important.
Later in life I have realised that Leonard saw something in me
that I wasn't aware of at the time.
So I don't know if you remember some lines from his latest CD.
”Look at me one more time, Leonard.”
And that… Then I thought:
”Why is he still writing songs
that I actually have noted down the first line of
or a part of the chorus, in jest to myself?”
Because very often I have said when I have met friends and acquaintances:
”Oh, I would have loved to have met him now,
so he could see me now.”
Know what I mean?
And then along comes that song.

Marianne reads:
Oh, look at me, Leonard
Look at me one last time

Leonard Cohen: Look at me , Leonard

Marianne reads:
then they bend over the bed

Leonard Cohen: look at me one last time
then they bend over the bed

Marianne reads:
and cover me up like a baby

Leonard Cohen:
…cover me up like a baby
that is shivering
Like a baby
Like a baby…
because of a few songs...

NARRATOR: But it wasn't only Marianne
who wanted to be seen by Leonard Cohen.

MARIANNE: (laughs) Most of all
I wanted to cage him in and lock him up.
Swallow the key.
No, I was jealous.
Because he was so incredibly sought after.
And also he was a … he was so entertaining and so courteous
and so... All the time... He was equally compassionate
towards everyone, in a sense.
For example, if he had finished working
he would go down to the port earlier, for example.
Then we would eat dinner later,
and then I would wait for the babysitter and perhaps
I would come down an hour or two after him.
And every time he would be sitting at the table
with some or other fantastic woman. (laughs)
And… like Helen who stands up and says:
”Now I have conquered your man!” You know.

But I mean, it was all a joke,
and it was just good friendship.
But it riled me each and every time. (laughs)
It was like being stabbed, you know.
That's the way it goes when you choose those kind of strong,
handsome, tall and dark, handsome men, right?
Good gracious.
All the girls were panting for him.
You have no idea how hurt I felt.
And that destroyed so much.
But after all it was my own insecurity.
I should have just held my head high and thought:
”But it is me he is living with. It is me he has chosen.”
And then… Yes, I would dare go as far as to say
that I was on the verge of killing myself due to it.
I just wanted to die.

There was this fabulous young model from New York,
who came to Hydra. And they disappeared for an entire day.
And so I imagined all kinds of things.
I curled up like a small foetus, and built a large wooden coffin
around me, an imaginary one, of course.
People who passed by actually thought I was dead.

INTERVIEWER: What do you mean
"people who passed by actually thought you were dead"?

MARIANNE: Well no,
but I actually remained lying on the floor there, so I did.
24 hours. I refused to communicate with the outside world.

I don't want to stir up more sorrow. Oh!
God, how much pain one can suffer!

(...concluding.)

MARIANNE AND LEONARD
Interview with Marianne Ihlen
by Kari Hesthamar, Norway, 2005
SO LONG, MARIANNE

Marianne-Kari_5.mp3
(time: 10.23 mins; size: 9.5 meg)

audio source: http://www.nrk.no/programmer/radio/radi ... 15921.html

-------------------------------------

translated transcription from: http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com/marianne2006.html
...


Leonard Cohen: ”Bird on the Wire”
Like a bird on the wire
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free


Footsteps outside

MARIANNE: It’s quiet today.

Yes, it's Tarjei there.
Come on. Yes, come on then.
You'll get lunch today as well, you lucky devil.
Yes, come here, you, Tarjei Vesaas
(a swan, named after a famous Norwegian author).
Powerful fine bird. He has survived, he has.
Yes, you're fine aren't you.
It's a lonely life, isn't it?

If I, if I have been unkind
I hope that you can just let it go by
”Like a bird on the wire
I have tried in my way to be free”

It is great to write songs,
for you can actually manage to say a lot which you
at the moment maybe aren't able to carry out.
But by and by that's what you have to do to survive.

”Bird on the Wire”...
That was when electricity came to Hydra, you know,
and they would land on these strange wires
that suddenly cut right in front of the window.
Just like notes.

Magnificent. Therefore I felt that it was also my song.
But of course everyone refers to ”So long Marianne”.

INTERVIEWER: Well but
you have always been her that got that fantastic song...

MARIANNE: Yes. Yes…
But he has written a lot of other good stuff too. My goodness.
I have started to read some of his poems again.
I sat here yesterday reading many poems.
For I think the poems he has written to me …
I feel more at home there.
Then it's about us.
Much more than in ”So Long, Marianne”.
This little one here, for example.

I sort of feel.., I have participated in that book, in many ways.

INTERVIEWER: In addition it is dedicated to you.

MARIANNE: Is it?
Yes, perhaps it is. Is it?
I haven't even considered that.
Are you sure? No.
leafs Oh, there its says so, yes!
Discretely out on the left side.

Well, I didn't know that.
But that was nice.
Yes, but I was a part of it.
We have written it together.

NARRATOR: More than five years had passed
since Marianne and Leonard met for the first time.
Leonard wrote poems and songs, and eventually
commuted more and more between Greece, Montreal
and New York. Marianne and tiny Axel remained alone on Hydra.

MARIANNE: He often had to cross the great dam, as we said.
Both in search of inspiration, and for to,
as he said: ”… become a little more miserable again.”
And then we couldn't afford to travel all of us.
Therefore I was often alone on Hydra. I was.
And it came to the point where
I didn't want to be alone anymore.
I felt it was awfully sad.
It wasn't enough to play home and castle and all that stuff.
It therefore resulted in me asking to come along.
And that period there,
it... it was dramatic, on very many levels.

NARRATOR: Leonard's career was accelerating,
and after about three years on Hydra the small family
again moved back to Montreal.

MARIANNE: That was when ”Sisters of Mercy” was written.
Leonard travelled a lot.
It began to dawn on me that something was about to happen.
Yes, how long at a time does one remain in love
before one has to renew oneself?
I can exactly recognise the situation in our lives we were in then,
where you suddenly find that you cannot communicate properly together.
We couldn't get anywhere.
I didn't understand what he was saying,
he didn't understand what I was saying.
I could not put into words how I felt.
Leonard naturally immersed himself in his writing,
and continued with his songs.

And in order to try to alleviate everything
I left for Mexico, to visit my old friend.
I took little Axel with me.
And it was a very strong experience. Among the indians.
In those mountains. Well, it was absolutely incredible.
At that point I had a feeling that I in a sense
was very close to God. I was almost convinced that
I would never come down off that mountain.
So that was my sojourn from Montreal,
when the world was in danger of falling apart.
When I returned I brought back a woven Mexican blanket.
And it was the man and the woman.
So when I came home to Montreal
Leonard and I sat under that blanket a while.
Then we actually began sitting still both of us
and letting everything settle down.

We had had so many retreats, and we tried and we tried.
Neither of us really felt like giving up completely.

Now I just have to sit and become warm again inside...

NARRATOR: Marianne wasn't permanently back in Norway again
until 1973. 38 years old.

MARIANNE: Would you like to hear my singing bowl?

INTERVIEWER: Yes.

(Hum of the singing bowl)

Music ”I tried to leave You”

LEONARD COHEN:

Days of Kindness

Greece is a good place
To look at the moon, isn’t it
You can read by the moonlight
You can read on the terrace
You can see a face
As you saw it when you were young
There was good light then
Oil lamps and candles
And those little flames
That floated on a cork in olive oil
What I loved in my old life
I haven’t forgotten
It lives in my spine
Marianne and the child
The days of kindness
It rises in my spine
And it manifests as tears
I pray that a loving memory
Exists for them too
The precious ones I overthrew
For an education in the world

Music


MARIANNE: This relationship was a gift to me.
And a gift for Leonard, I might also add,
not to underestimate myself completely.
And that's what it was.
However, I think it has been sort of an opener
for the rest of life for us both, for better or worse.
Just this morning I was reading, a few short lines, you know,
which you can read a couple of every day,
where I repeat and repeat this about it
being through the hardest blows in life
that you really have the chance to move on, as it were.
Out of the sorrow, you know.

What is the distance between weeping and laughter?
I mean, it is the whole of that…
It's good on one side, and it's bad on the other side.
I mean, when it's dark it's dark because light is gone.
And when it's light then darkness is gone.
But it is the same thing.

Leonard Cohen:
I tried to leave you, I don’t deny
I cloosed the book on us, at least a hundred times.
I’d wake up in the morning by your side.

MARIANNE: My life resides in my body.
You carry your entire past in your body.
It is the one who remembers when there was pain.
When there was joy.
When there were difficulties and when you were afraid.
And a couple of times today
I have felt that I have held my breath.
Memories stirred and woke, sort of.

And then I feel like saying
like Leonard,
but this is coming from me:
”Don’t believe a word I’ve said.
Don’t believe a word I’ve said.
It’s all a dream.”

I loved the part about her son throwing tantrums, causing Marianne to worry that Leonard's writing would be disrupted. (As a mother, I had to laugh. The harder you try to shush a child, the more he'll howl.) But instead of complaining to Marianne, Leonard, in calm, authoritative manner, summons the boy in to his writing chamber ("Axel. I need your help.") and the child immediately settles down, drawing quietly for hours while Leonard resumes his writing. What a lovely image, a side of Leonard that I'd never considered.
"What is the distance between laughter and weeping?" A wonderful epigraph to a life well lived.
Blessings and good wishes to Marianne and her son (who'd be in his forties now !!) And thanks so much, Kari, for this wonderful interview, and to Jarkko for bringing it to our attention.
--Squidgy

~greg wrote: I don't very often feel the need to simply say I'm appreciative.
Which gives me the insight into lizzytysh I was lacking.

Lizzytysh is simply more appreciative of, -of everything,
- than most of us are capable of being. Particularly about things
that don't immediately benefit ourselves. We are mired so deep
in ourselves most of the time that we become like frogs incapable
of paying attention to or giving a damn about flies outside the range
of our tongues.

Just in case anyone got the notion that I might have been being sarcastic in that,
well,
I was not being sarcastic in that.



But I don't want to say that Lizzytysh is a saint.

In fact I recall two things in two things she wrote once
that bothered me at the time.
And by definition a saint wouldn't have done that.


Nevertheless:
A lower threshold for appreciation ("heaven in a grain of sand")
-- IS characteristic of saints.

It's in the ball-park anyway.


I'll have more to say some other time.
Right now I think maybe the most concise way, around here,
to get across what I did mean if it really wasn't clear the first time
--is via the following quote
(which happens to be what I was actually thinking about at the time):

...
Many weak men lied
they came to God in secret
and though they left him nourished
they would not say who healed
Though mountains danced before them
they said that God was dead
...
etc

Now I don't mean this in any religious way.
In fact I define "God" as "the internet"

- - - in the sense that the internet has brought about
something almost saint-like in common unwashed humanity;
- namely, --that incredible willingness of so many people
to do so much, for nothing - for complete strangers,
- who they'll never meet or profit from ..

It was equally
-----my own feelings of guilt about the thousands of times
I could and should have simply thanked someone
for something on the internet, but did not,
---because I couldn't think of a clever comment to go along with it,

-----as it was with
my suddenly realizing that Lizzytysh's great secret primary ulterior motive
for posting as much as she does
was turning out to be so difficult to ferret out -
(as it wasn't in the cases of a couple of other heavy posters)

-- because it doesn't exist.

She simply says out loud her appreciation
for those "who heal" so to speak,

--in the sense that we are all healing each other on the internet

-- rather than, in effect *lying* about it, -
- by not saying who healed
- by not giving appreciation
as frequently as we know in our hearts we should give it


Any one who ever read any post at all
formulated some response to it in their heads at the time.

And if that response was positive,
and yet they did not post to that effect,
---- then they just remind me of my father,
who implicitly taught that a man's feelings
should not be spoken
but understood implicitly.


I really appreciated the Marianne interview.
And I had to say so.

But I rarely feel good enough about myself to just say so.
So I needed to have something clever to go along with it.

And I remembered that Alex Jensen had been in a car crash.

And that in the Marianne interview she mentions that
Cohen drove her to Norway --in Jensen's car. So maybe I could
make something clever out of that. But I had to be sure
I was right about Jensen having been in a car crash first.
So I began "researching" it on the net.

It was then that I realized I was making myself sick
- of myself - with that sort of thing.

Here I was, still trying to impress my father,
-- exactly as I was when I was 9 by memorizing "The Congo",
- eactly as I had failed to do a few years earlier
by failing to memorize the lines he tried to teach me for a play.

Likewise those who feel they have to rile Lyzzytysh --are projecting.

First of all they're projecting that Lyzzytysh can't be getting "around much"
--to places like the strip and the rave.
Can't be burning much gasoline, which is how "life" as in "get a life"
is measured. Bookish types are always an irritate to "popular" high school kids,
because they remind them of how fragile their "popularity" is and what it cost them.
Indeed, you can bet those who rile Lyzzytysh feel themselves intrinsically worthless.
They project themselves because they can't face it in themselves
It's the most classic of projections.
They know that they get something that feels like real friendship
out of the internet, which they're not "supposed" to, they're supposed
to get it from "real life", but fail to.
And they're ok with with this - this failure -as long as it's not made too clear.
And then someone comes along who seems to them
to depend in the same way they do on this kind of nourishment
- only more so. And that rubs it in. And they have to kick.

I'm not saying anything that everyone doesn't know
somewhere in their hearts.


What I really wanted to do was to simply express
simple appreciation for the Marianne interview.
(As many have before me.
It's not new.
(--glad to see you high and dry,
Squidgy!))

And it was a real breakthrough for me
to realized that I was free to do it.

Even so, I couldn't quite pull it off.
A reference to Jensen was left in.
And while I did realize what I realized about Lyzzytysh
in that moment, --I didn't have to say so.

Saying so was an expression of pride in myself
for having realized it.
And a surreptitious attempt to point out that I could do it too
- if I wanted.

So not a very unadulterated expression of appreciation.
but mabe a start.

(note:
that kind of self-analysis that I just showed there,
or tried to, - that maybe made some people nauseous,
(and I'm very rusty at it; --it's even more nauseting when it's done right)
- nevertheless comes from a beautiful place,
-of Gurdjieff, and R.D. Laing, etc,
...- a place that Alex Jensen was "into",
- and the same place that Marianne was "coming from" in saying:
" I was not much 'present' in myself.
But I didn't know that at the time."
That's pure Gurdjeffian lingo,
which Leonard completely misunderstood ....)



Lizzytysh has no secret ulterior motive for posting as much as she does.
Just appreciation.
No ambiguity.

The one thing that bothered me, the one thing that stayed in my mind
and I couldn't get rid of it, that haunted me, was why.
Why would she lie? What was her motive for lying?
If my client is innocent, she's lying, why?
Was it blackmail? No. Was it jealousy? No.
Yesterday I found out why.

She doesn't have a motive,

you know why?
Because she's not lying...

- Al Pacino
- "And Justice For All"

Needless to say I enjoyed the interviews with Marianne and Leonard enormously, and I want to thank everyone involved.

I was especially moved by listening to Marianne.

And so I just came to think of this:
Did she wait all those years to tell her story, because Axel Jensen was still alive and - well, it is obvious that she loved him very much back then. Do you people realize how extremely goodlooking he was, and so famous - a wonderboy of modern literature in Norway at the time. Going off to Greece with him must have been very romantic and quite bohemian, to say the least. And then it all went wrong. The marriage, doomed from the very beginning. Marianne and the baby - how could he leave them, just like that? I know some very bad expressions about his behaviour, but who am I to judge, when she does not. He hurt her more than words can tell, and so she waited till after he had passed away, to talk about it.

I am sure that there was true love between Marianne and Leonard, but from the start it seems to me that Leonard came to her rescue, most of all.

"You held on to me like I was a crucifix"

And then he let her take him home.

***

Dear Elsie,

Your observations are very insightful-Marianne's disappointment must have been obvious to Leonard on a certain level. To gain her, "on the rebound" as they say, must have affected his own psyche. I'm certain that he was grateful to have the company of this beautiful, kind woman, but if Axel Jensen hadn't abandoned her, he would not have had this opportunity. When Leonard speaks of their "graceful" parting, I believe that this was a portion of it.

Joe

Hi Elsie and Joe ~

Did she wait all those years to tell her story, because Axel Jensen was still alive and - well, it is obvious that she loved him very much back then.

I believe you're on target with this, as well... from what I've seen and read of Marianne, her old-fashioned values of honour and respect would re-enforce her not wanting to publicly say anything that involved Axel that might be construed as being disparaging.

I felt badly reading that, perhaps, Leonard came to her rescue. She was clearly injured, and he may have gravitated to her, in knowing that he wouldn't set about to injure her further. Yet, in that he had so clearly admired her prior to their coming together [even though her split with Axel was a prerequisite for it] ~ he made it a point that he admired them from afar, as "a holy trinity," plus other positive things regarding Marianne herself ~ I perceived their relationship as existing on its own merits. There were surely other men who could have, and been willing to, rescue her. When they came together, what he discovered was a woman who shared his values and who lived as gracefully as he. I didn't get a sense of their relationship being a result of a feeling of 'charity' toward her. I can allow for being wrong in that, but it seemed to me that Leonard felt very grateful to have her in his life, at a time when things were just a little too free, a little too easy.

As I've now watched the segment on and interview with Suzanne, however, it seems that Leonard may be the type who, once he moves on, doesn't really revisit the relationship as such. I know others who are very pragmatic in that way ~ if it didn't work the first time, it's probably not going to work the second time, either. [I would do better to be that type .]

With Leonard's handling of the behavioural situation with Axel, how brilliant [as Squidgy has said] that he instantaneously transformed Axel's self-perception from being 'bad,' a 'child' and in need of chastisement,' to being good, helpful, appreciated, as an adult would be. As a single mother ~ or a mother, period ~ how much it must have impressed Marianne to see her son being validated in that way by a man who wasn't his father. She must have so much appreciated seeing Leonard do that [well, she clearly did, as she still cites it this many years later].

I do agree that Marianne held onto Leonard like he was a crucifix... yet, even from so far away and undoubtedly surrounded by many beautiful and appealing women, he sent for Marianne with the telegram. She seems to have brought him a similar kind of stability.

As many things eventually do, however, it ended.

~ Lizzy


Dear Greg ~

I don't want to explore here all that you've said; however, I can't let your words sit like an elephant in the living room, either. So, I simply want to thank you, very much, for your thoughtful and kind exploration and comments on me and my postings.

~ Lizzy

Hi Lizzy & All,

I've been a bit quiet in thinking about this interaction here that we've been so privileged to witness.

Lizzy, I think that you are quite correct in your observation that Leonard seldom looks back at his relationships. He says repeatedly that his memory isn't that good and words to that effect, but in my mind it is a conscious choice that he makes. He chooses to focus on the present because it is certainly healthier than trying to relive old lives. I think so much of what he does focuses on his work and this is a more productive way to encounter life.

Tchoco mentioned Leonard's stated intention-who he was writing for-poets like W. B. Yeats which started me on another journey of my own-I've always associated Leonard with Yeats. Some of it, of course, was a longing that he would be granted the long life and creativity that Yeats enjoyed. I truly think that Leonard has now been granted that same gift-to look at life as through a 3-D steroscope and has had the opportunity to not only look at it, but comment on it for us.

I looked up a couple of my favorite Yeats' poems today-"Among School Children" foremost and "The Circus Animals Desertion."

Here is the former:



I walk through the long schoolroom questioning;
A kind old nun in a white hood replies;
The children learn to cipher and to sing,
To study reading - books and histories,
To cut and sew, be neat in everything
In the best modern way - the children's eyes
In momentary wonder stare upon
A sixty-year-old smiling public man.

II

I dream of a Ledaean body, bent
Above a sinking fire, a tale that she
Told of a harsh reproof, or trivial event
That changed some childish day to tragedy -
Told, and it seemed that our two natures blent
Into a sphere from youthful sympathy,
Or else, to alter Plato's parable,
Into the yolk and white of the one shell.

III

And thinking of that fit of grief or rage
I look upon one child or t'other there
And wonder if she stood so at that age -
For even daughters of the swan can share
Something of every paddler's heritage -
And had that colour upon cheek or hair,
And thereupon my heart is driven wild:
She stands before me as a living child.

IV

Her present image floats into the mind -
Did Quattrocento finger fashion it
Hollow of cheek as though it drank the wind
And took a mess of shadows for its meat?
And I though never of Ledaean kind
Had pretty plumage once - enough of that,
Better to smile on all that smile, and show
There is a comfortable kind of old scarecrow.

V

What youthful mother, a shape upon her lap
Honey of generation had betrayed,
And that must sleep, shriek, struggle to escape
As recollection or the drug decide,
Would think her Son, did she but see that shape
With sixty or more winters on its head,
A compensation for the pang of his birth,
Or the uncertainty of his setting forth?

VI

Plato thought nature but a spume that plays
Upon a ghostly paradigm of things;
Solider Aristotle played the taws
Upon the bottom of a king of kings;
World-famous golden-thighed Pythagoras
Fingered upon a fiddle-stick or strings
What a star sang and careless Muses heard:
Old clothes upon old sticks to scare a bird.

VII

Both nuns and mothers worship images,
But those the candles light are not as those
That animate a mother's reveries,
But keep a marble or a bronze repose.
And yet they too break hearts - O presences
That passion, piety or affection knows,
And that all heavenly glory symbolise -
O self-born mockers of man's enterprise;

VIII

Labour is blossoming or dancing where
The body is not bruised to pleasure soul.
Nor beauty born out of its own despair,
Nor blear-eyed wisdom out of midnight oil.
O chestnut-tree, great-rooted blossomer,
Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole?
O body swayed to music, O brightening glance,
How can we know the dancer from the dance?

-- W. B. Yeats

A couple of things strike me:

Yeats was an Irish Senator at the time he wrote this poem and although, Leonard's celebrity is not really significant-events like the song writers Hall of Fame amplify the notion that Leonard, too, is an aging "Public Man." Leonard is certainly a 71 year-old smiling public man and, although I, along with so many of his fans (who are almost like family now) see him in his youth and many facets-there are times that he is a comfortable old scarecrow to us-scarecrow enough to chase that bird off the wire. Age is important and anyone who doesn't realize that wouldn't recognize the multitude of reasons that brought a tear to his eye on stage yesterday.

The other significant factor for me is that much of Yeats' poem is devoted to his lifelong love of Maud Gonne. Yeats, through many love affairs and his marriage to Georgy, never left the unfullfilled love that he found for Maud. Even as an old man this love informed all of his poetry.

I also watched the CBC segment on Suzanne Verdal today and noted how the narrator cast the (sexually) unfulfilled love for each of them in their own terms. It made me think that Leonard has never really found that "love of his life"-in the same sense that Yeats found his. He has mentioned this-in his own honest way-in several of his interviews-but it never meant as much to me as it does now.

All I can say is that I believe that this too depends on certain choices-and I hope that it is not too late for him. His drawing, "Falling in love with you" gives me some hope that perhaps, it is not too late. I'll leave this post with the conclusion to Yeats' "Circus Animals Desertation."

"Those masterful images because complete
Grew in pure mind, but out of what began?
A mound of refuse or the sweepings of a street,
Old kettles, old bottles, and a broken can,
Old iron, old bones, old rags, that raving slut
Who keeps the till. Now that my ladder's gone,
I must lie down where all the ladders start
In the foul rag and bone shop of the heart. "

Joe

 

Hi Joe ~

Before I have time to study what you've written [which certainly isn't now, at 10:30 PM on a 'school night' ], I want to quickly clarify that what I said didn't refer to Leonard's thinking about his relationships, which he's certainly made a point of in his interviews, with regard to thinking back on his life in general, which would certainly have to include his relationships. When I said, "as such," I meant literally ~ in the sense of reconciling within the relationship itself . Once the relationship has ended, that's it. Still, he tried to leave her 1000 times. I guess, once he finally did, that was it, though . Oh, my... I have enough to figure out my own relationships, much less Leonard's [that emoticon applies directly to me, regarding my attempts ].

Tomorrow, I'll read your posting here ~ I only scanned it, and can see I want to give it more time.

~ Lizzy

Joe Way: Good points. Great poem.

I agree with you and Lizzy that he seems to be one of us who parts from people and then doesn't ever give it a whole lot of thought afterwards. Or, rather, we're less likely to dwell on a lot of specifics and try to remember the good things instead. If anyone ever asks me about a woman I was once involved with I don't ever say anything negative. There's no point in that. And it just makes you look bad and like less of a person if you can't put it behind you. And I think that a lot can be learned from Leonard's approach. To be grateful for the things that you enjoyed with and about the other person.
I'll stop there with the Dr. Phil crap.

Greg: Great Post. You're right. Showing appreciation for something is not a form of weakness, nor is it necessarily a disguise for some hidden sordidness. There are those people who use charm and compliments to manipulate others, so we have to constantly be on guard about that. Sometimes, we may be too cautious about it. At any rate, I think it's usually pretty easy to spot either way. And Lizzy doesn't seem to me to be someone who appreciates things for reasons of popularity or anything else that isn't genuine.

I understand the points about not being someone who shows your feelings. I'm not really either. I don't think most men are.

I also liked your analysis of people who attack others for no real reason. I'll go a step further though. I'd say that if you met people like that in real life that they're probably the type to not have the balls to have any form of conflict or speak their mind. They're probably the non-assertive type who get angry and marinate in it. So, on the Net, they can attack people passive-aggressive style and not realize that there are some of us who can see the insecurity behind it all. I'm speaking in generalities. Not about anyone specific.

Excellent movie reference.
I'm out of order! You're out of order! The whole court's out of order! (That may not be exactly right.)

How about these:
"I want what's comin' to me, Chico. The WORLD and everything in it."
"All I have in this world is my balls and my word. And I don't brake 'em for nobody."-Pacino in Scarface.
Kevin

Does anybody know what Axel's up to these days? I'd love to know.

The Sr. is up in Paradise (or down in Hell -you choose )

The Jr. I have no clue.

Dem

Of course I meant the junior.