leonardcohenforum.com

Hi Paula,

I think that the 'touchy feely' comments you mention being made on the Forum are due to the fact that we are all people of like mind. Fans of Leonard, and want to either share information or comment on new information being posted. It is a friendly place to be.

I do not get the whole Facebook fascination. However, it is a personal choice for those who want to go a little further and share somewhat more personal information.

Paula wrote: I am not a toucy feely lovey dovey person.

Where some people might find my blunt posts offensive I actually find the overly sickly sweet love you all posts quite offensive .

Sounds as if you have a lot in common with Leonard Cohen, Paula, based on the evidence of his novels and poetry anyway!
Somehow I think calling a spade a spade would appeal to him more than sickly sweetness. He has never seemed comfortable with idolisation.

I am also one of those who is very turned off by the sickly sweet postings. Much of the time, this forum seems to veer between sickly sweet and angry; a staggering number of threads eventually turn into some kind of argument. There seems to be little room for humor or casual musings about Leonard. Facebook seems to have become the place for that. A couple of people have observed that the forum seems more academic, while FB feels more human. I do find this to be true. I find myself worrying over postings here- is it in the right section, do I sound intelligent, has it already been discussed, am I offending anyone, do I sound like a newbie, is LC reading (haha), etc. Not so on FB. It's much more relaxed. I think the tendency is to find a niche thread here - for me it is the Picture Game thread which I just adore. Many of the "old-timers" seem to stick to their own threads too- many of which I can make no sense of. Private jokes and made up personas going back years.

I would be uncomfortable sharing personal info and pictures here the way I do on FB, but I am equally uncomfortable posting incessant LC related statuses and videos on FB- my neighbors and such don't need to know the extent of the obsession. So, I will continue to use and enjoy both FB and the forum. I do consider this forum to be my first source of News about Leonard.

I found Leonard in 2008 and joined the forum a few months before he announced the tour. Giddy times for anyone, especially a new fan. What I found odd/interesting was that some of the people who had been on the forum for several years (some being fans for decades) had very little to say about Leonard, the coming tour, and even less later in 08/09- when they presumably would have gone to a concert or 2 or 3. [[You've been a fan for 30 years, the man hasn't toured in 15, and you have nothing to say outside of a cryptic poetry thread??]] For a few, it seemed like the enjoyment of Leonard had taken a backseat to the friendships made here. Nothing wrong with that. But it also made me wonder if there actually was much discussing within a select clique (among which it wasn't considered "cool" to be all excited about Leonard) in back rooms and PMs, and unfortunately that niggling suspicion of cliquishness has stuck with me. That said, I'm no innocent myself. I have made friends here and taken the friendship to the level of PMs and personal emails, away from the forum. It happens. At some point the friendship/bond is so strong that it is as important/gratifying as the "fandom." When you have a select group that you have grown comfortable with, it becomes an effort to take your thoughts/questions/observations about the artist to the forum. All we can do is try...

Paula, I also find the overly sickly sweet natterings some use on here and other places extremely offensive, but given my experience, I do not believe they are genuine at all. I have no problem with bluntness (being from South Africa, I am missing the PC gene), but I also think some things are simply better left unsaid, or shared with a friend or two rather than on a public forum.

I do think there is a clear delineation between the 'old guard' and the 'newbs' for some people at least (I know of one who so eloquently defined some of the long time members as 'the elites') and I also know that the actions of certain people on this Forum have driven some really good members away. Unfortunately these people have been part of the forum for many years, so their actions have gone unchallenged to date. We'll have to see if that holds going forward.

So in summary, I don't think FB is the problem. I think some people are the problem. At the end of the day, it shouldn't matter how many posts you have, how voluminous your posts are or how long you have been a member for. What should matter is that your reason for being here is to contribute to the forum and learn from others who share the same interest (LC) as you. People will fight. Not everyone will get along. Those are the dynamics of real life groups, and they are also the dynamics of virtual groups.

Just my 2c as an outsider (who's been looking in for about 2 years).

Well that is interesting reading at least, EverHoaferse.
Doron may be able to translate for me certain nuances.
He seems to be able to set most discussions straight; no matter what the language.

Mat.

Just so Mat's last post/comment has a context, that spammer's batch of posts (across a number of threads) was removed.

Cheers,
Andrew

To judge by the responses posted so far, it seems that for many people Facebook and the Forum are of equal importance. I confess that it is still not so for me, although this may change. As far as LC is regarded, I don’t feel I’ve gained anything substantial from Facebook, but perhaps I haven’t learned yet how to utilize it properly. I certainly acknowledge its usefulness in other respects. Also, some believe that the activity on Facebook does not damage the Forum in any way, but I’m not sure I’m convinced; it seems to me that at least a certain amount of energy has been leaking from the Forum lately, and I’m not sure that this has to do with the conclusion of the tour.

As for the old-timers vs. new-comers issue, I’m not convinced either. On the one hand, I’ve seen a lot of fighting among old-timers, and on the other hand, I’ve never seen them teaming up against any new-comers; if they ever unite, then it’s against each other. This goes back to the mythological times of the old Newsgroup, which disintegrated due to internal squabbling. Old grievances seem to have been carried over to the Forum, once it was so generously created by Jarkko. Four years ago the fighting was so bad that LC had to send in his “Seal of the Blessing to End Disunity”, and Jarkko threatened to shut down the Forum. A certain group had even seceded to start another forum, which didn’t last long, I believe. There was a general repentance for a while, but there would still be an occasional flare-up. Why would people who came together for their love of a certain artist go at each other's throats? Human nature, I guess. Great art and seas of love don’t cure our nasty side. So every now and then someone would rub somebody else the wrong way and an ugly scene would ensue; anyone might feel unwelcome at a certain point, but not because they were new or late comers. Anyhow, that’s my impression from following the Forum for the past few years. I must also hasten to say that the real love, friendship and interest that can be found here in abundance most of the time obscure the unpleasant parts, at least for me.

In my opinion this has been the most interesting thread for a long time and as yet no-one has got abusive as has happened in the past. It is interesting to read the measured statements of people who obviously enjoy the forum and who seek to ensure that there is a free exchange of ideas. There will always be the extremists, as in any area of life, but one has to accept the perspectives which each and every member has and which are coloured very often by their age, social environment and personality. If we all agreed then it would be a very boring state of affairs. Let's hope we hear a few more views.

mnkyface wrote:
I would be uncomfortable sharing personal info and pictures here the way I do on FB, but I am equally uncomfortable posting incessant LC related statuses and videos on FB- my neighbors and such don't need to know the extent of the obsession. So, I will continue to use and enjoy both FB and the forum. I do consider this forum to be my first source of News about Leonard.

Esther, I used to feel exactly the same way as you - didn't want work colleagues, etc, knowing quite so much about my personal foibles, but the magic of facebook is that you can divide your friends into lists. I have created a list called 'Leonard Cohen', added all my forum friends and like-minded souls to this, and then you set the privacy settings of an LC-centred post to 'only x people' and hey presto, only these people can see it! It's a life saver. I don't know why people get so het-up about privacy issues on facebook, it's actually very controllable (within reason I know - I know I have sold my soul to Mark Zuckerberg just by setting up an account...)

Sorry about that off-topic interjection. I'm sorry to see that a divide seems to be springing up regarding fb vs forum. As I have said on a facebook thread about this (sorry... ) I continue to use both, though I have found that using fb has enriched my use of the forum - I found it a bit hard to break through the anonymity at first (perhaps being a somewhat shy soul), and having some idea of the person behind the user name has made me feel much more connected - though nothing tops meeting people in the flesh, which I have also enjoyed doing.

Regarding the bluntness or lovey dovey-ness of the posts, I tend much more towards bluntness myself, being a hard-nosed English lass who is often irreverent towards those I admire. I often think this is due to cultural divides (possibly Brit/US), and also the fact that English is not the first language of many - some may appear more blunt, or indeed gushing, than perhaps they intended.

I can understand the tension between old-timers and new posters as well. I was aware of the forum for a long time before I joined (been a fan for nearly ten years), but never had the courage to join before the influx of newcomers as it seemed to be made up of long-standing members with private jokes aplenty. (I think the age thing also plays a part - I am much younger than most). That's fair enough, and so is missing the way it was, and noticing that it has changed a lot (which it has - no getting away from it). Where I find it unacceptable is when newcomers are made to feel unwelcome or that their views don't count - I have not been on the receiving end of this myself, but know that others have. This forum is linked to on Leonard's website, and is prominent in google searches - it's only natural that newcomers will come here to share their feelings about him, and I don't think it reflects well on Leonard if there are vigilant gatekeepers to this valuable source of information about him. But I stress that I don't think that on the whole this is too big a problem. I also think it's valuable that it is being discussed

I have been thinking a lot about this thread that Doron started. Thank you everyone for your posts as it gave me lots to think about.
There is so much information on the forum with links and history about Leonard
that it is clear to me its a treasure chest of wonderful gems I never imagined finding when I first joined the forum.
I have been a fan for over 30 years but didn't know about the forum. I remembered being welcomed by Mary B and Diana especially and was fortunate to meet them in person 4 months later.
As time went on and I met more people in real life and my connection grew.
I have been on facebook for the last year and as others have said before me its a different flavour. I use it for different things and have made great connections there with new people and some I already know. I go to the forum and facebook daily.
There has been conflicts on the forum and there doesn't seem to be a way to deal with them and I don't know if that can change.
All I know is that I am so grateful for this forum and we are all here for our interest in Leonard and his music, words and song.
Some issues may never get resolved between people unless they sit in person and that is not always possible.
I feel uncomfortable when the issue of old timers and new ones comes up and I see people being put down...as to me it doesn't matter how old you are in years or how long you have been on the forum or a fan of Leonard's music...we are all here for the same reason and I am so grateful for that person. Thank you Leonard and Jarkko!
Cheers!
Thanks
Leslie/Mutti

I agree with Tony this is one of the more interesting threads for a while and I think it is because we are getting back to exchanging comments and points of view. It probably will eventually have arguments or squabbles in it but to me that is part of it but now Leonard is no longer touring we need to keep the forum alive by exchanging views amognst other things.

I also agree with Ruth a lot of the misintrepretation of posts is a cultural thing. Some things get lost in translation over the pond . As George Bernard Shaw said "Great Britain and the United States are nations separated by a common language". The UK has a a more "shit happens deal with it " attitude.

Yes... I do also like the direction this thread has taken because we are exchanging thoughts,points of view...we are communicating. From my own personal experiences the only way to bridge gaps,resolve conflict and move forward is to start by discussing it . I am actually enjoying this thread because I feel that this topic has actually started people talking to each other again.We will not always agree on everything but that is what defines who we are and makes each of us unique and separate individuals. Two thoughts or two words...awareness and tolerance...
These can buffer any misunderstandings... language styles ,cultural differences...
We are different but we are the same.

donalagata ...

Paula wrote: The UK has a a more "shit happens deal with it " attitude.

Lol, very true Paula!

Intereresting cultural observations here. As someone who grew up in a very direct, "in your face" culture, has worked with Brits and has lived in the US for the past ten years my general experience has been that Brits are more reserved and often not as direct as southern and western Americans, and are on par with Yankees. It has also been my experience that Brits are generally tactful, despite being hopelessly snobby and that Americans are more accepting but less tactful. (Generalizing enough for you all? )

All of that aside, and no matter where you are from or what language you speak, being tactless is a form of social disability. It does not make you a bad person but it is certainly nothing to be proud of. Being tactful does not mean that you have to be indirect or deceitful, half of it is just knowing when to shut the f*** up

Very interesting discussion here.

It has been wonderful that so many beautiful, energetic, warm and helpful people have entered the forum over the last three years. No one should be subjected to a litmus test as to how long they have been a member of the forum, how long they have been a fan of Leonard's, or how much they post. We should be happy that Leonard is still working his magic, still catching someone's ear for the first time creating that excitement to find other like-minded fans, that same excitement that each of us felt at one time. If Leonard's work is going to extend beyond today, it would seem important that people who discover him tomorrow have a welcoming place to come, a place where they are treated as an equal.

As far as Facebook vs. the forum, I think there is some overlap but not enough that one could ever replace the other. Facebook is a capitalist enterprise but that doesn't make it evil per se. The forum is "non-profit," but it is not free. Jarkko pays for this site, for server space, but even more importantly, in time that he could be spending elsewhere. If it feels like a semi-protected environment on the forum, it is because people behind the scenes are deleting the spam. Nothing on the Internet is free.

There is a cautionary tale here though. Once upon a time there was the newsgroup. It was replaced by the forum. The newsgroup might not have gone so easily into the night were it not for its divisive nature. Considering that the hallmarks of Facebook are its pleasant and welcoming environment, exclusionary labels like old-timers and dart throwing for the sake of exercising one's "free speech rights" do nothing to sustain the life of this forum.

I love that Leonard is held in such high regard by so many and talk about him overflows everywhere, here, on Facebook and on blogs (thank you, Allan). This is what we used to dream about way back when only a few of us seemed to know his name. I don't believe that people who were here before the tour have essentially been driven away by the influx of new members. Experiencing Leonard is a many-layered process. I used to analyze Leonard's lyrics and poems endlessly with others. Then one day I realized that there was only so much my head could do and I would have to start engaging my heart. Leonard then became a very private experience for me. I think this happens to many fans. The need to discuss dissipates and it is replaced with a desire to just experience.

This is the best time to be a Leonard Cohen fan. There was a time when we could not imagine there would ever be another album. Tour? I just can't express how unrealistic that concept was to us 10 years ago. I often feel stunned silent with gratitude over what we have been given. We have so much to celebrate. So...be fruitful and make multiple posts...everywhere.