The Krakow Event: Tour to Auschwitz/Birkenau

[lizzytysh]

Yeah, Jarkko will get to it when he has time, no doubt. Yes... absolutely just as a new thread in the Cracow section.

A Q&A section is a great idea, too, Mirek. What to avoid ?

Oh, and you're welcome, of course, Carmen. It'll be great to have you along.

[Carmen]

Excellent idea!
Q&A could answer lots of our questions regarding museums, interesting sites, the historical Krakow and so on.

[MaryB]

Mirek,

I have just read the information on Witold Pilecki - what an amazing humanitarian and hero! He was probably elevated in the eyes of his fellow countrymen, but it is also heartening to know that he finally received the government recognition he so justly deserves.

Kindest regards,
Mary

[hydriot]

I do not visit extermination camps, because they would upset me to no purpose. But I would very much like to see the house where Rutka Laskier lived and pay my respects. She lived in the ghetto of Bedzin, which was located north of Krakow, near Katowice. Could the Committee please organise a trip out there for those who do not wish to go to Auschwitz?

See http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/ju ... .booksnews , http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/news/mult ... 77.article and, most informative of all, http://wapedia.mobi/en/Rutka_Laskier .

I saw the BBC documentary and it was most impressive.

[lizzytysh]

The top, smaller photo is the entrance to Auschwitz. The bottom, larger photo is the entrance to Birkenau.

http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/

In trying to find the first site I ever looked at , I found this [and I think the redone one is the one I posted first]:

http://travel.latimes.com/daily-deal-bl ... z-bi-4195/

Poland’s Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum in desperate need of funds


Visiting the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum in southern Poland is for most people an unforgettable experience. The 400-acre facility outside Krakow opened in 1940, originally for Polish political prisoners. In 1942, Auschwitz-Birkenau became the Nazis’ biggest death camp; more than a million Jews were murdered there.

But parts of the memorial and museum have fallen into disrepair, prompting Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk to issue an urgent appeal for help to leaders of the European Union, estimating that about $150 million is needed to preserve the memorial.

Late last month, the German government pledged $1.28 million to the effort, promising more in coming years. “Germany will not shirk its responsibility,” said Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.

Individuals can make contributions also; check the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum website for more information.

Susan Spano/Times staff writer

[Photo: en.auschwitz.org]

[lizzytysh]

Hey! I have an idea, you guys. Jarkko is really Really REALLY busy... so rather than add to his Things To Do Today list, how about if we try this... I'll start a thread, regarding Auschwitz-Birkenau. Then, if we take turns... in order... copying & pasting our own postings from here, to there... then, after we're done transferring everything over to there, by going backwards, we can each delete our own postings. Then, voila, Jarkko won't need to do a thing.

Meanwhile, before I start that thread... I read the last link and, indeed, she was a very interesting young woman. It seems to me that the scholars aren't giving her enough credit for some of the mental capabilities of people age 14 can be astounding. If she was better educated [or from a better educated family] than Anne Frank, their differences wouldn't be so surprizing... or simply their writing/expressive abilities would account for it.

Some scholars[who?] have found Laskier's accurate and highly-developed thoughts and emotions inconsistent with her age, in comparison with the simpler thoughts and emotions expressed in the diary of Anne Frank.

~ Lizzy

[lizzytysh]

Okay... now for the transferring to begin.

I started doing some initial checking for vans, about $160/day USD for the cheapest one on the site I visited. That's for September 2009, however... the site could never find what it was looking for when I entered a month that had already passed... and it didn't have a 2010 option. So, the cheapest may be more by then, or less... but these seem to be for people coming into airports... so, we'll see what else we can find between now and then. Splitting the cost for the van should make it pretty affordable. In continuing further on the site, where I found the "Cars" link [where I ended up finding the above info], I found this 'review,' which contains a word to the wise, which you'll easily recognize:

http://www.infohub.com/destinations/eur ... 103927.htm

Have The Time To Really See It
Reviewed by A TripAdvisor Member on Aug 29, 2008


There are so many reviews already, but I felt that I had to add one more thing. I had read in many guidebooks and on websites to plan on spending the entire day to really see it. My husband and I set aside a day really thinking that we wouldn't need quite that much time. Well, we spent 9 hours walking around both places (we drove the distance between them) and we still didn't get to see everything. It is enormous !!!!! We finally had to go because we were just exausted. It is a very sobering experience that I highly recommend. This is something that should be seen so that it will never be forgotten.

[silvinka]

OOhhh, that's wonderful news, Silvinka ! Will your gorgeous son be coming with you?


~ Lizzy

I´m looking forward to see you Lizzy
I´m not going to take Šimon, he is just 3y and he is a little bit, ehhm, active:D, he is not able to stay at one place for 5min , 300 people will hate me if I come with him

[jarkko]

I have split the original registration thread according to the requests.
In the future feel free to open a new thread when a significant topic comes up!

[Mabeanie1]

Silly question time ... my husband Tony will be coming to Krakow with me. He doesn't want to take part in the Event as such but he would like to join us for the Auschwitz/Birkenau trip. Should I register him for the event so that he can do so? Or can he join the trip as a "guest"? I don't mind paying an additional €100 registration fee but it seems a shame to maybe deprive someone else of the opportunity to join the event given that numbers are so limited.

Wendy

[ladydi]

Hi all,

I've been off the Forum for a couple of days and LOOK at all I've missed...lots of posts. Lizzy, not sure if you read my post at the beginning of this thread but I too am very interested in a full-day tour to Auschwitz-Birkenau so I hope I can be included in your group. I don't mind going alone, but in this case I think it would be important to be with others. For some reason Mauthausen affected me more deeply than Dachau. Perhaps because it is surrounded by rolling green hills as it was in the 30's and 40's.....pastoral hell. From the rock quarry I selected a rock and tried to run up the 150 steps to the top carrying it, as the prisoners were made to do every day while subsisting on rotten soup and moldy bread. If you stumbled you were either beaten or killed. I could barely make it...healthy, well-fed, and in relatively good shape.

We were self-guiding ourselves and were in the basement trying to figure out what room we were in. I was overcome by chills and had the uncanny sense of "something" around my ankles....a slight breeze, or a touch. Dave then pointed out that the room to our right was the gas chamber. The room we were now had been a slightly refrigerated (long since disabled) room to pile the bodies prior to shoving them in the ovens in the room to our left. I'm not a person given to imagining things but there was a strong presence in that place...an overwhelming presence, particularly in that one room.

We had hoped to visit Poland several years ago but the trip was postponed due to a family illness.We wanted so much to see Krakow and the Tatra mountains, but we specifically wanted to visit the camps and memorials. The stone monuments of Treblinka 1 and 2, which were far to the northeast; Madjanek (not sure of that spelling); but most of all Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I'm hoping to spend 6 days in Krakow. If 5 of them are filled with fun, joy, laughter, friendship, and sharing Leonard....then I need one day to honour those who died. I know it's not for everyone, but it is a necessary thing for me.

[lizzytysh]

Hi Diana ~

I had actually mentally included you and added on one extra person because of it... so, yes, you're there. It's interesting to me the ones who felt compelled to take a simple reminder with them and that the one reminder that came to each of us was a rock/stone. Not that there are many other transportable, natural items; yet, a twig or blade of grass would have qualified, too. There's something about the hardness of a stone that seemed fitting.

There are so many specific rooms and spaces that come to me, even thinking back in this way. As you describe your experience, I recall other things I felt.

I'll try contacting the Museum [what the two camps are considered] and ask about a guided tour that does not come by bus and what the minimum number of people required for getting a guide is... I know that here in some historical and arts places, you can rent a taped message that is considered a 'tour' ~ the problem is that you can't ask a tape questions... and they do arise.

. . . then I need one day to honour those who died. I know it's not for everyone, but it is a necessary thing for me.

That's how I feel about it, too, Diana. In Berlin, they have a quite new Holocaust Memorial Museum [not sure if that's the exact name, but close]. It was fairly close to where our hotels were and it has huge amounts of personal effects of the victims. It was another situation of immense frustration, where we [three of us] had only a few [maybe just two] hours to be there, prior to an Event happening that night. I wanted to linger at every glassed-in display and read everything, but it was impossible. Appropriate time for experiencing and processing these exhibits and sites is really crucial, if this is an area you're seriously interested in.


~ Lizzy

[ladydi]

Thanks so much Lizzy!

At this point I must mention how sensitive and mindful many Germans, and local governments, are to the Holocaust. Most of us know of the 6 million Jews who were exterminated, BUT, there were 6 million other souls also. Priests, political dissidents, intellectuals, homosexuals, gypsies......and anyone who did not agree with the Reich....many simply ordinary people with a sense of moral responsibility.

On the Obersalzberg, once the Americans departed in the mid-90's, the Bavarian government took over many of the areas that had been controlled by the American military. After 50 years it was definitely time to turn it over. Many structures on the Obersalzberg that had remained in American hands were now destroyed. The Hotel General Walker, which had been maintained as a "vacation" spot for the military was now torn down. The only structure that somewhat survived the bombing in 1945 was Hitler's "guest house" where Chamberlain and others had stayed. I saw it many years in continuing decay....stripped of everything within....."ich liebe hitler" spray painted on the walls. In fact, one December, the road to nowhere (the road leading to what had been Hitler's Berghof), was adorned in a festive manner with pine boughs. Four feet of snow.....utter silence....not one person within miles.....but pine boughs. However, the Bavarian government turned the "guest house" into a museum, with access to the underground bunkers. It is straightforward and sensitive....nothing is omitted. What used to be "Goering's hill" is now a very very expensive (but relatively small) Intercontinental hotel. They are attempting to return the Obersalzberg back to what it was pre-Hitler....a magnificently beautiful resort area, for rest, relaxation and hiking. But they also want never to forget...hence the museum.

I give great credit to the Germans of today. If we forget...."we are doomed to repeat".

[lizzytysh]

If we forget...."we are doomed to repeat".

Yes, I was going to say that, too, as it sums it up. I give credit to the Germans of today, too; and feel horrible when people react as though it was their generation and blood relatives who committed the atrocities. Not all Germans were in favour and some provided shelter, risking their own lives, as well. I feel badly, too, when Germans take on a kind of guilt for what preceded them. Still, it's a feeling of guilt that I understand, as I experience it with regard to how the United States treated slaves and blacks and Indians. Wholesale annihilation in any form is so hard to reconcile. May forgiveness simply prevail. Henning wrote a beautiful Introduction/greeting in the Berlin Event booklet. When I get time, I'll transcribe it to here. That's a lot of interesting information you've given in this posting.


~ Lizzy

[goldstei]

In terms of the van trip, altho I know this is still far in the future, it would probably help some of us with planning to have some sense as to what day folks have in mind. I assume not during the Cohen event itself, but presumably one day before or one day after? Knowing which would affect my airplane planning and, I suspect, that of others also.

Diana, thanks for the reminder about the other victims of the Nazis. Although I'm Jewish, I always mentioned this when talking about this subject during my former life as a professor and I was very moved one day when one of my students told me after class how much s/he appreciated this, because some of her relatives had been among such victims and they are so often forgotten.

On the topic of horrible memorials dealing with horrible subjects (the rest of this posting is pretty grim and some of you may want to stop reading here--nothing to do with either Leonard or Krakow)--


there is a truly chilling museum created in the former KGB (Soviet secret police) prison in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania. There are similar museums in some of the other east european capitalis (i.e. Budapest) but the one in Vilnius is by far the most moving I have visited. Although, among the Baltic capitals, Riga and Tallinn both have more charm (of the Krakow sort), for those with interest in this subject, Vilnius might be worth a side trip (I believe there is now such a museum in Tallinn which I haven't visted--Riga has a very important museum about the victims of the Soviet and Nazi occupations of Latvia between 1939 and 1991, but it is a freestanding museum, not on the site of specific events). In the Czech republic, there is an important museum/city at Theresienstadt (Terezen in Czech), which the Nazis turned into a sort of "showcase" concentration camp when the Red Cross visited. This place is especially chilling because it had formerly been a political prison during the Habsburg Empire and because people are actually living there today, in the same houses where detainees were held. Also in Czech is the site of Lidice, a town which the Nazis literally wiped off the face of the earth in retaliation for the assassination of the S.S. chief in occupied Czechoslavakia. There is a similar town in France, Ouradour (sp?), which I have not visited.

I do not know where, in anywhere, in the U.S., if there a museum dedicated to the horrors of slavery, although there cerrtainly should be. I'm currently deep in the heart of Texas, which largely revolted against first Mexican and then later U.S. rule, so that they could retain their freedoms against "government oppression"--in this case the freedom to retain slavery. Or focussed on American atrocities against the Indians (in doing some research on 19th-century France, I discovered that the term "like an American treaty" meant "worthless" because the U.S. reneged on some many of its treaty agreements with the Indians. Or, not to compare this with slavery, treatment of the Indians, or Nazi or Soviet atrocities, I'm not sure if any of the internment camps for Japanese-Americans during World War II is today a memorial (I have a vague sense that maybe at Manzanar, but I'm not sure). One of these camps, incidentally, was restored for possible use to intern American left-wing dissidents for emergency detention with charges or trial, as authorized by Congress in the 1950 Internal Security Act (repealed only about 1972).

Sorry for this downer posting. But, as Diana reminds us, to forget the past is a dangerous thing. Of course, we need to all recall joyous occasions also, like these wonderful concerts--these three hours of chocolates and roses, smiling monkeys and dancing violins (and white men) that Leonard has been giving us. At the first of the 2008-09 concerts which I attended, in Hamilton, ONtario (where Mary B. tossed her first monkey), LC said, "Every artist dreams of a reception like this one. We won't forget it." We won't forget these concerts, Leonard! Many thanks to you and the amazing singers and musicians touring with you!