he's not Muslim. i wasn't sure, so i consulted a book, and the fact is that he's not religious. he was born into a Muslim family, but abandoned his faith.bee wrote:Kush posted the proposal of Rushdy for reforms on Islam- (who is a Muslim-)
Explosions in London
I sit at my computer, jug of ice water to my left, contemplating what has been written. Leonard Cohen's 'The Future' CD is on. I'm sure I've heard it everyday since I was given a rough tape of it in 1992. My right hand directs blue ink in a dance creating something cohesive, something smooth. It is Saturday night. I'm home again. I have no money, nor will, to go out. My football team is on television - I've seen them win and lose enough. And all I really care about is her. She. So long out of my life.
And the ideas of religious reforms are raised. I ponder my situation. I need reform from within. Always will do. That is most important.
And the ideas of religious reforms are raised. I ponder my situation. I need reform from within. Always will do. That is most important.
I ponder my situation. I need reform from within. Always will do. That is most important.
Hallelujah brother, praise the lord / allah and pass the wine /fruit juice
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
- Mahatma Gandhi
May I offer a few more quotes, relevant or not, to sustain you in your pensive hour?:
"Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart ... Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside awakens."
- Carl Gustav Jung
"If you're not failing every now and again, it's a sign you're not doing anything very innovative."
- Woody Allen
"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly."
- Robert F. Kennedy
"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
- Andre Gide
"How a person masters his fate is more important than what his fate is."
- Wilhelm von Humboldt
"If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner."
- Tallulah Bankhead
"Never explain - your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe it anyhow."
- Elbert Hubbard
"Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator, but among those I love, I can: all of them make me laugh."
- W.H. Auden
Sorry for all the quotations - but why try to flounder around when someone else has already said it so succinctly?
Hallelujah brother, praise the lord / allah and pass the wine /fruit juice
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
- Mahatma Gandhi
May I offer a few more quotes, relevant or not,
to sustain you in your pensive hour?:"Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart ... Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside awakens."
- Carl Gustav Jung
"If you're not failing every now and again, it's a sign you're not doing anything very innovative."
- Woody Allen
"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly."
- Robert F. Kennedy
"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."
- Andre Gide
"How a person masters his fate is more important than what his fate is."
- Wilhelm von Humboldt
"If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner."
- Tallulah Bankhead
"Never explain - your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe it anyhow."
- Elbert Hubbard
"Among those whom I like or admire, I can find no common denominator, but among those I love, I can: all of them make me laugh."
- W.H. Auden
Sorry for all the quotations - but why try to flounder around when someone else has already said it so succinctly?
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
Dear Jurica,
I think what Bee said about perspective is very important. Perhaps you are still in the "rebellion" phase. Are you (or anybody else) being persecuted by the Christian church for expressing your views? Are women able to drive and vote in predominantly christian nations? Have you spent 20 years or whatever in hiding as Mr. Rushdie did for expressing your views? (this goes for Mr. McGeever too)
Perhaps a year under the Taliban would provide for a different perspective. Just as an example you couldnt fly a kite under the former Taliban regime coz' religion (or their interpretation of it) forbids it. You couldnt play music (all radios and TVs were confiscated and destroyed) Women couldnt be medically treated becoz men were forbidden to treat or examine women and women doctors were not allowed to work. This is the world view of the "Islamofascists"....whose "cause" you are so concerned about. Yes Galileo and those guys were persecuted by the christian church for expressing their views.....a few centuries ago !! Perhaps the christian church is in need of more reformation but of all the major religions (i.e. with substantial numbers) of the world today, the acute and immediate need is of Islam to reform.
BTW, the earlier article that I posted by Fareed Zakaria...he is also Muslim.
One more thing, modern science is a child of the church. The very first scientists were priests. Because only they knew how to read and write and had time to think.
I think what Bee said about perspective is very important. Perhaps you are still in the "rebellion" phase. Are you (or anybody else) being persecuted by the Christian church for expressing your views? Are women able to drive and vote in predominantly christian nations? Have you spent 20 years or whatever in hiding as Mr. Rushdie did for expressing your views? (this goes for Mr. McGeever too)
Perhaps a year under the Taliban would provide for a different perspective. Just as an example you couldnt fly a kite under the former Taliban regime coz' religion (or their interpretation of it) forbids it. You couldnt play music (all radios and TVs were confiscated and destroyed) Women couldnt be medically treated becoz men were forbidden to treat or examine women and women doctors were not allowed to work. This is the world view of the "Islamofascists"....whose "cause" you are so concerned about. Yes Galileo and those guys were persecuted by the christian church for expressing their views.....a few centuries ago !! Perhaps the christian church is in need of more reformation but of all the major religions (i.e. with substantial numbers) of the world today, the acute and immediate need is of Islam to reform.
BTW, the earlier article that I posted by Fareed Zakaria...he is also Muslim.
One more thing, modern science is a child of the church. The very first scientists were priests. Because only they knew how to read and write and had time to think.
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Delightfull quotes, Joe! Encore! 
If you did think you were alone Boss... ha!ah!
Kush, I am always amazed to see how huge is the power of the "victim", even it this "victim" is in fact a "cruel bully". Metaphory speaking.
When there is an abuse of power, it is a common way to turn to a power that is against the first said power. But doing so is like applying a remedy worst than the desease. I think this is done out of panic (counsciously or not).
"One more thing, modern science is a child of the church. The very first scientists were priests. Because only they knew how to read and write and had time to think."
Not only priests, Kush, as alchimists were the first "scientits", among them many Arabs and Chinese. Many priests were alchimists, this is a fact.
If you did think you were alone Boss... ha!ah! Kush, I am always amazed to see how huge is the power of the "victim", even it this "victim" is in fact a "cruel bully". Metaphory speaking.
When there is an abuse of power, it is a common way to turn to a power that is against the first said power. But doing so is like applying a remedy worst than the desease. I think this is done out of panic (counsciously or not).
"One more thing, modern science is a child of the church. The very first scientists were priests. Because only they knew how to read and write and had time to think."
Not only priests, Kush, as alchimists were the first "scientits", among them many Arabs and Chinese. Many priests were alchimists, this is a fact.
What you said certainly is true, Kush. But it must be remembered that it was the church that burned down the library at Alexandria, and it was the church that persecuted thinkers who didn't fall in line with contemporary church dogma, whether they were "priests" or not.
I would without a doubt rather live in a country ruled by "christians", no matter how hypocritical they may be, than in a country falling under islamic practices. But however subtle the church's modern persecution may be - it's still here. I've come across far too many christian fundamentalists who would sweep homosexuality under the carpet as a mortal sin and who believe that Darwin was a blasphemous idiot to accept that most "christian" churches don't need "reformation", albeit not as drastic reformation as islamic practices.
Please correct me if I'm wrong - but as far as I know, Arab countries were relatively refined and civilised before the advent of christianity - like most belief systems and dogmatic practices Islam fell prey to deliberate misinterpretations (as did the early christian church) wrought by the self interests of those lusting after power and prestige, which brought about dramatic changes that have now come to be accepted as gospel truth (sorry - couldn't resist that ) and that rubbed out most of what was humane and decent in those institutions.
Jo
(Please note, Choc, there's no "e" and never has been)
I would without a doubt rather live in a country ruled by "christians", no matter how hypocritical they may be, than in a country falling under islamic practices. But however subtle the church's modern persecution may be - it's still here. I've come across far too many christian fundamentalists who would sweep homosexuality under the carpet as a mortal sin and who believe that Darwin was a blasphemous idiot to accept that most "christian" churches don't need "reformation", albeit not as drastic reformation as islamic practices.
Please correct me if I'm wrong - but as far as I know, Arab countries were relatively refined and civilised before the advent of christianity - like most belief systems and dogmatic practices Islam fell prey to deliberate misinterpretations (as did the early christian church) wrought by the self interests of those lusting after power and prestige, which brought about dramatic changes that have now come to be accepted as gospel truth (sorry - couldn't resist that
) and that rubbed out most of what was humane and decent in those institutions.Jo
(Please note, Choc, there's no "e" and never has been)
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
I absolutely stand by my quote with a slight modification only for clarity and specificity that I didnt make clear the first time around.....
"The very first modern scientists were European priests or came from families that were priests (i.e. father was priest)." (e.g. Mendel, Copernicus etc etc...)...they were then persecuted by the very same church. It is the same thing as the fact that very first modern humans were African.....a statement of fact that is all...
Furthermore, the so-called alchemists were pseudo-scientists whose only motivation was to turn common metal to gold. They have made no or negligible contribution to science and they live only in myth and legend.
Every civilization goes through cycles.....I have already spoken of Arab civilization earlier in the thread.
For your information....personally I leave the church alone and it leave me alone. That arrangement works well.
p.s. Jo it was the Arabs that saved most of the ancient Greek knowledge (when Europe was in the "dark") and also fostered relations with various peoples....
Tchoc to be honest most of the time I'm afraid I dont know what you go on about....you probably feel the same about my posts.
"The very first modern scientists were European priests or came from families that were priests (i.e. father was priest)." (e.g. Mendel, Copernicus etc etc...)...they were then persecuted by the very same church. It is the same thing as the fact that very first modern humans were African.....a statement of fact that is all...
Furthermore, the so-called alchemists were pseudo-scientists whose only motivation was to turn common metal to gold. They have made no or negligible contribution to science and they live only in myth and legend.
Every civilization goes through cycles.....I have already spoken of Arab civilization earlier in the thread.
For your information....personally I leave the church alone and it leave me alone. That arrangement works well.
p.s. Jo it was the Arabs that saved most of the ancient Greek knowledge (when Europe was in the "dark") and also fostered relations with various peoples....
Tchoc to be honest most of the time I'm afraid I dont know what you go on about....you probably feel the same about my posts.
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Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Yes. Where did I see the "e"? 'Must be too used to "Joe This" and "Joe That". By the way, Jo, it is Tchocolatl and it has not always been. Tchoc, for most fellow members. 
Kush, most of the time I feel that I understand you, but I do not always agree with every bit of it, and most of the time I feel that you do not undestand what I wrote when it is not what you are already know or think. That is life.
I explain more about alchimists.
As you stressed it to Jo, Greek habit to think about natural phenomenon, while it was repressed by the Catholic Church, was free to "make children" in Arabic societies, and it was through them, under cover, first, through the strong market activities with them that Europe get out of the darkness.
Now, please follow me a little further.
In the Greek societies, manual work was considered low in comparaison to intellectual work (We still have a heritage of this, also).
Manipulating matter was considered the "lowest" of activity. Ah! but, it is the purpose and everyday task of technic and science.
How could they get there, how could they could have made this incredible qualitative jump from passing - to pick an example between many - from thinking of some theory about the atoms to the manipulation of the atoms?
The answer, like often, lay in the shadow. There is always a shadow. Alchimists were not allowed to do so, but they did, all along, all this time, they manipulated the matter in all sorts of ways. They were not all gold diggers and their bad reputation is more due to the fact that their activities were both outlaw and not socially rewarded as valuable.
(When scientists as we know them now, emerged from this chaos, they, like teenagers, stand against this long line of pionners by dening them any credit. But as we are going far from the first generations of scientists as we know them now, the perspectives are changing too.)
Please before answering right away that all this is non sense, have your little inquiry. I thank you in advance, (yours truly 
) Tchoc.
P.S. : I just want to warn you because that may cause some trauma to a very conformist/"rational" mind and I don't want to cause any unecessary trauma. : if you go this way, you will soon be confronted to the fact that Newton was an alchimist.
Kush, most of the time I feel that I understand you, but I do not always agree with every bit of it, and most of the time I feel that you do not undestand what I wrote when it is not what you are already know or think. That is life.
I explain more about alchimists.
As you stressed it to Jo, Greek habit to think about natural phenomenon, while it was repressed by the Catholic Church, was free to "make children" in Arabic societies, and it was through them, under cover, first, through the strong market activities with them that Europe get out of the darkness.
Now, please follow me a little further.
In the Greek societies, manual work was considered low in comparaison to intellectual work (We still have a heritage of this, also).
Manipulating matter was considered the "lowest" of activity. Ah! but, it is the purpose and everyday task of technic and science.
How could they get there, how could they could have made this incredible qualitative jump from passing - to pick an example between many - from thinking of some theory about the atoms to the manipulation of the atoms?
The answer, like often, lay in the shadow. There is always a shadow. Alchimists were not allowed to do so, but they did, all along, all this time, they manipulated the matter in all sorts of ways. They were not all gold diggers and their bad reputation is more due to the fact that their activities were both outlaw and not socially rewarded as valuable.
(When scientists as we know them now, emerged from this chaos, they, like teenagers, stand against this long line of pionners by dening them any credit. But as we are going far from the first generations of scientists as we know them now, the perspectives are changing too.)
Please before answering right away that all this is non sense, have your little inquiry. I thank you in advance,
(yours truly ) Tchoc.P.S. : I just want to warn you because that may cause some trauma to a very conformist/"rational" mind and I don't want to cause any unecessary trauma. : if you go this way, you will soon be confronted to the fact that Newton was an alchimist.
well, i'm not living in hiding, but very large majority of Islam fractions are against this fathva, and there are mad people everywhere. for example, in Netherlands a group of Jahova's vitnesses (Christians!) had a plan to distroy a blood suply in all of the hospitals because it's against their religion...Kush wrote:Are you (or anybody else) being persecuted by the Christian church for expressing your views? Are women able to drive and vote in predominantly christian nations? Have you spent 20 years or whatever in hiding as Mr. Rushdie did for expressing your views? (this goes for Mr. McGeever too)
about driving and voting in christian nations - it has nothing to do with Church. it happened because of a few brave women and man who fought for that right in CIVIL, and not RELIGIOUS community. as far as it goes for the Church itself - women are still citizens of the second rate who cannot be priests etc.
***
as Jo said, and i agree (obviously) - we all prefer to live in predominatly Christian than Muslim society, since it tends to be less fanatical lately. but she also quoted:
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
- Mahatma Gandhi
...and that's exactly my point. i went against bee's post because she is a Christian, but she never sees anything wrong with her own faith. only Muslim. but i'd rather discuss the need for reformes in Islam with Muslims, not Cristians. with Christians i'll only discuss the need for reformes in their Church. with you - i'll most rather not discuss religion in general, only politics, since we're both nonbelivers (i think you said you were some time before, hope i'm not mistaking).
if some Muslim were reading our posts he'd sooner feel hate and disrespect than the feeling that we're criticizing in a constructive manner. and there's a real posibility that some Muslims WILL read this (i know some of them like Cohen - i personaly know at least one who does)...
“since we're both nonbelivers ”
Jurica – if that comment was directed at me, no way am I a nonbeliever. In fact, I’m a vehement (as in “characterized by great force or energy”) believer.
I believe in the power of love.
I believe in friendship.
I believe that we are all responsible for our own lives.
I believe that any good and/or harm you do to other living creatures and the environment will come back to you.
I believe that words can do and mean much, but ultimately it’s actions that count.
I believe in getting in touch with and trusting one's own intuition - "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." (Antoine de Saint-Exupery - The Little Prince).
I believe in hope and dreams – dreams begin in imagination and if you can imagine it you can make it real – but "when your dreams turn to dust, vacuum." (Anonymous).
I believe in an individual and a collective conscience, but as Lillian Hellman said, "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year's fashions."
I believe in acting according to that conscience – whether there are witnesses or not.
I believe in starting with wild expectations (that's the only way you can succeed beyond them) even if you fail - "…. In this life we get nothing save by effort." (Theodore Roosevelt).
I believe in curiosity – not in finding the right answers, but in posing the right questions (paraphrased from Claude Levi-Strauss).
I believe, as some wise but anonymous humorist said, "There is no danger of developing eyestrain from looking on the bright side of things."
I have no problem with someone else’s religious, philosophical or political beliefs. What I have a great problem with is those who believe that their system of beliefs is the only valid one. That’s what starts wars. Yes – I know someone will point out that wars are caused by economic factors – but isn’t it ultimately the same thing? “I beleive that God / Allah / Thor / might / right (take your pick) is on my side so I’m free to invade your country and make you believe what I believe, which, I believe, would be to your benefit and by the way, appropriate your oil/ minerals etc. as my needs are greater than yours and you'd better believe that”
I wish I could claim to follow this – but I’m working on it :
"Always behave like a duck -- keep calm and unruffled on the surface but paddle like the devil underneath."
- Jacob Braude
Jurica – if that comment was directed at me, no way am I a nonbeliever. In fact, I’m a vehement (as in “characterized by great force or energy”) believer.
I believe in the power of love.
I believe in friendship.
I believe that we are all responsible for our own lives.
I believe that any good and/or harm you do to other living creatures and the environment will come back to you.
I believe that words can do and mean much, but ultimately it’s actions that count.
I believe in getting in touch with and trusting one's own intuition - "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." (Antoine de Saint-Exupery - The Little Prince).
I believe in hope and dreams – dreams begin in imagination and if you can imagine it you can make it real – but "when your dreams turn to dust, vacuum." (Anonymous).
I believe in an individual and a collective conscience, but as Lillian Hellman said, "I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year's fashions."
I believe in acting according to that conscience – whether there are witnesses or not.
I believe in starting with wild expectations (that's the only way you can succeed beyond them) even if you fail - "…. In this life we get nothing save by effort." (Theodore Roosevelt).
I believe in curiosity – not in finding the right answers, but in posing the right questions (paraphrased from Claude Levi-Strauss).
I believe, as some wise but anonymous humorist said, "There is no danger of developing eyestrain from looking on the bright side of things."
I have no problem with someone else’s religious, philosophical or political beliefs. What I have a great problem with is those who believe that their system of beliefs is the only valid one. That’s what starts wars. Yes – I know someone will point out that wars are caused by economic factors – but isn’t it ultimately the same thing? “I beleive that God / Allah / Thor / might / right (take your pick) is on my side so I’m free to invade your country and make you believe what I believe, which, I believe, would be to your benefit and by the way, appropriate your oil/ minerals etc. as my needs are greater than yours and you'd better believe that”
I wish I could claim to follow this – but I’m working on it
:"Always behave like a duck -- keep calm and unruffled on the surface but paddle like the devil underneath."
- Jacob Braude
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
Boss - I feel I owe you an apology. I've just re-read your post and I can see that I responded in an apparently flippant way to your expression of seemingly rather deep and perturbing feelings.
My response was not meant to be derogatory in any way at all. I responded spontaneously in empathy and with a certain amount of astonishment at that rarest of events (not only in this forum but in life in general) - a sincere and self examining comment, which was the more remarkable as it came out of nowhere in the midst of an "I'm-right-you're-wrong" argument.
So please accept my most heartfelt apologies if I've caused you any distress with inappropriate comments. My only excuse is that my normal response to almost anything is laughter - I find that easier and less distressing than crying .
My response was not meant to be derogatory in any way at all. I responded spontaneously in empathy and with a certain amount of astonishment at that rarest of events (not only in this forum but in life in general) - a sincere and self examining comment, which was the more remarkable as it came out of nowhere in the midst of an "I'm-right-you're-wrong" argument.
So please accept my most heartfelt apologies if I've caused you any distress with inappropriate comments. My only excuse is that my normal response to almost anything is laughter - I find that easier and less distressing than crying
."... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
Jurica....about nonbeliever ....I dont usually ponder on questions that I have no way of answering or even speculating. But no, I do not subscribe to conventional or nonconventional religion. I do have however a healthy and academic respect from where religions come from even if we leave each other alone.
I'll have to get back to you later about other stuff.
I'll have to get back to you later about other stuff.
bee (a Christian) is always eager to propose reformes to Muslims, but loudly refuses Andrew's idea for reformes for Christianity...
Dear Jurica- I did not propose reforms for Muslims- Kush posted the proposal of Rushdy for reform of Islam- who is a Muslim-my comment was on Andrews "personal opinion", por favor-don't jump to conclusions, just because you've saw my name there, yours, bee, forever Christian, Catholic, alleluia, amen
Jurica- your response is that of a child, who is distracted by something else, not capable of concentrating on the subject. Like, I would talk to you, and the fly sits on my nose, you cannot follow the conversation, but you would concentrate on the fly.bee wrote:
Kush posted the proposal of Rushdy for reforms on Islam- (who is a Muslim-)
he's not Muslim. i wasn't sure, so i consulted a book, and the fact is that he's not religious. he was born into a Muslim family, but abandoned his faith.
-I would say-Peter-teacher says you have not done your homework-oh, mama, I don't like this car we are driving in, and I want my chocolate cake right now!- this is how you respond. In 12, 13, 14 centuries in Europe there were academies already founded, The Florentine Academy, Platonic Academy, the Council of Basle. The matters of philosophy, science and theology has been discussed there. Great scientists and philosophers like Nicholas Cusanus, Giordano Bruno, Ficino, Pico, later Gallileo, Leonardo, Machiavelli, Alberti. Giordano Bruno was free to publish all of his works, in his work- De Umbris idearum -where he maintains his view that for human knowledge ideas can only be presented and embodied in the form of images. He's thoughts concerning freedom, destiny and relationships of man to the world are so fresh even today, especially if one reads the pre medieval age mumbo-jumbo written above. In Spaccio he seeks to shed light on the relationships on the inner world by using figures of visible, spatial cosmos-the forces that move the inner man, he finds it as cosmic potencies, Loenardo writes about mathematics as symbolic presentation of a mind. It was the root, which later on developed to philosophical doctrines of relationship between freedom and necessity. Long before that Francis of Assisi broke the dogmatic barrier between nature and spirit. Franciscan mysticism begins intellectual great work of redeeming nature and liberating it from sin and sensuality.
Leonardo da Vinci -Scriti letterari- writes-"The sense of nature must not be mystically felt; it must be understood as a logical sense. And this requirement can only be fulfilled by means of mathematics. Only mathematics establishes unequivocal and necessary standards against the arbitrariness and uncertainty of opinions." Whoever relies on individual words falls prey to the uncertainty and ambiguity characteristic of the single word, and finds himself entangled in endless logomachies." Galileo pushed that even further-the individual sense perception, no matter how intense or forceful it may be "says" nothing, has no objective definite meaning-meaning is born only when human mind relates to the content of the perception to the basic forms of knowledge, the archetypes of which are in the mind itself. From there on the modern thinking begun to work further.
Bruno was prosecuted not for his works, which were widely recognized and read among the clergy and scholars, but because of intense intrigues and political plottings, just like today- Martha Stuart would have to go to jail (of course a vulgar comparison, but never the less)
The reformation in Church, the intellectual and spiritual works were done long ago, and you are still feeding on them, my dear Jurica, you are eating that bread and drinking that wine in abundance, just that you don't know, where it is coming from.
The ever present screams for the freedom to homosexuals are just laughable matter, fired up by political forces in attempt to humiliate and blame the church for whatever they could, Past or present. If the homosexuals don't like where the church stands on it, I guess that would be a problem for homosexuals, not of the Church, it has that right. If Islam thinks that eating the pork is a mortal sin- I think that would be a big problem for the pork eaters.
Jurica- one more time- I did not call for the reforms in Islam- Rushdy did. You are calling for reforms in Christianity-while not being a Christian. I have every right to stand by my believes and stand by my Holy Mother the Church, would be awful if I didn't. What right and urge you have to attack constantly my church, I do not know. If you are irritated by the fact that western societies intellectually and socially are influenced by Christianity, it is just a historical fact you have to recognize and intellectually resolve the situation for yourself, the blame/game will not help you.
bee
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Tchocolatl
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- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
This is how I understood it Jo and why I had second it, Boss. For me, laugthers are not an offensive weapon, but an endorphins (and other interestings matters) liberator as well as a smooth way to bond with others (and I'm convinced that when used as a weapon they are nocive as all other antisocial behaviors, but ey! for now there is not sci proof). Boss if you have understood my laughters otherwise, now you can't!My response was not meant to be derogatory in any way at all. I responded spontaneously in empathy
To look inside oneselfs is a good thing.
To be able to communicate efficiently with others, is another one.
To be able to admit having done a mistake is a third one.
Ha!ah!
(OK, here i force the process a little) This said, when a real crisis of crying (with full of hot salted abondant streaming tears) is "needed" any laughters will make the job as well in regard of deeply calming the nerves and make peace/the sun shine again inside, just after, like after rain does outside. Anyway, this is how I feel it.