leonardcohenforum.com

Tri-me,

Where is it legal for a woman to walk topless down the streets in Canada? I've seen women do it in protest in Vancouver. Then, of course, there's the nude beaches, but I've never, ever heard that it was considered 'legal' for a woman to be topless on a public street. Is this a Provincial thing perhaps?

Linda.

Symbols, like classics, are passing very well the test of time. They stay intact and fresh.

We have ten simple "commands" to follow To avoid rapes of bodies as well as rape of social institutions, like Linda stressed that it is happening rigth now. But I am afraid that the adoration of the golden calf idol is still a too much strong attractor. Poor old Moses, what I chance he is dead, and can not to see how his efforts to save people from extinction out of all this were so useless for many. Fortunately the consciousness seems to grow very well, and maybe the results of so many years and years of unconsciouness are the last one will see. I am an optimist. As I can not see the future, baby, I stick to my optimism. Tough this optimism is not blind and can see that it is also "murder" in too many ways. But... ey!

Young Dr. Freud,

Old Dr. Freud was not the idiot stupid macho man that puritans of New England and other geographical entities would like him to be.

A trauma is a very powerful thing. And very real.

For example, when a child is sexually abused, this created a powerful trauma that the child can not overcome alone. Therefore the child seeks help form others. He the child don't find any help the trauma will continue to manifest itself all life long, even if the child has forgotten or "forgotten" about what happened.

This could be manifested by an autodestrution behaviour, but also by a non appropriate sexual behaviour in unapproprite time and place, even by a provocative sexual behaviour, like an actor that replays a well known act.

As the victims of agression (whatever sexual or not) tend to blame themselves and the agressor tend to deny any responsibilities, the victim could be caught for ever in a very vicious circle, and if very sick, can turned into an agressor (whatever male of female) (just like vampires ).

Society tends also to blame victims too often, and now this is this thing that what everything that is sexual is OK and should never be restrained in any case. This is strange.

It takes SIDA and the threat of death, and sometimes, this is not enough - to take the habit to have safe sex and use a condom.

Sex is still a very taboo subject and is not discussed easily.

So this is why also this fashion botters me, because it is a taboo. Like the cloth muslim women are wearing, it seems that we are not allowed to put it into question. Very bad, this.

For example again, I don't say that it is the case, if you would have been the victim of a rape or unwanted sexual intercourses of some sort, I could easily understand that you react strongly to my post comparing an outfit to a rape.

If, for example, your strong reaction to the symbol of a grown up woman "having fun" mixted with child game would be a reaction for having been abused as a child by an adult for "fun" and it is a way for the trauma to express, and if your rage toward LC's supposed "lies" was a transfer done on a figure of authority, I would not tell you that you are a gossiper. I would believe you and support you.

I repeat, all this is pure sci.fi of my part, just examples. I hope it will clarify how I reliate the gravity of symptoms of a trauma to gravity of the trauma itself.

This is why also this fashion bothers me because it could blind the symptoms.

And yes I think that psychoanlysis can help on social and politic grounds.

But like the rest, it has its preferred and more suitable spots than forum about and (great) artist. I know.

OK maybe just in Ontario?

On December 9, 1996 the Ontario Court of Appeal released its judgment that a topfree walk taken in Guelph, Ontario on July 19, 1991 by a certain Gwen Jacob, then 19, was not indecent; therefore, it was legal.

http://www.geocities.com/womens_choice_org/jacob.html

I thought this case went federal i was wrong. I can't see myself ever doing this. But I feel that women should be able to. On the other hand i did not like it I lived in TO when a man would sit next to me shirtless, in a small pair of shorts. My issue

There are many younger than me in the forum. What's up with people getting their faces tattooed? I have a tattoo, not against tattoos.

I'm not against, sex, I'm not against nudity, I am not against being ligthly dressed or dressed sexy between consentant adults

No matter the fashion is, I would be more at ease, though if being dressed sexy was more a matter of preferences and personality than a big pressure from publicity to conform to the society.

I mean both "fully consentant" and "adult" must be part of the deal, all the rest I am questioning it.

How it is so more comfortable and easy to say that nothing matters, that everything is OK, and the world is going just round round round. I know. Missionaries are always cooked. Missionary stews are not to be out of fashion so soon. Well, endure a little putting-in-question, though guys

Tatooes are not always bad. On some people I saw very nice pieces of art on their skin. Others... hum.... Piercing, I find it totally absolutely awful. It is just a matter of taste. Those symbols of a generation "against" the "old men and women", as well as long hair was in its time are in the order of nature I guess, to want to be different, to evolve. It is funny to see how older people than this generation are adopting the "younger" looks, sometimes, piercing and everything. I prefer to pass my turn.

from what i can tell, tatoos are another way of expressing yourself when you don't know any other way to do so. just like T shirts with stupid messages, or jackets with something written on them, or... well, there are a lot.

i personaly think it has something to do with the media that offers mostly only one sided conversation (TV for example). people don't hang with other people enough, and when they do, they have little to say since the show last night is much more interesting than their own lives. they feel that nobody want's to hear about them, about their lives and feelings. that's why everybody, however illiterate, untalented or stupid, wants to be an artist, and wear headlines on their shirts, or, as in this case, their skin.

just my oppinion. i may be wrong, but you asked for oppinions, and you got mine.

People do need to be aware of the rule of every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

than a big pressure from publicity to conform to the society

I have always been a non-conformist. Not to the extreem extent of dying my hair purple, orange and lime green. I am 39 unmarried, childless, carless and happy. In the past I would be considered selfish and not living m life seriously. i don't want kids and i have only ever met one man I wanted to marry, he left me for another woman....his mom .

People who feel the pressure to conform are suckers!!! That is harsh, but nurturing your individuality is very important. I love the scene in Wild at Heart David Lynch, whenSailor says

this jacket is a symbol of my individuality and my belief in personal freedom

Hi Tchocolatl ~

even by a provocative sexual behaviour, like an actor that replays a well known act.

As the victims of agression (whatever sexual or not) tend to blame themselves and the agressor tend to deny any responsibilities, the victim could be caught for ever in a very vicious circle, and if very sick, can turned into an agressor (whatever male of female) (just like vamp

You've hit on a couple points here. Yes, the "provocative sexual behaviour" that you're noting can sometimes be seen in abuse victims. It is often a subconscious attempt to re-establish/regain the control that was lost in the act of being sexually abused, i.e. "If I'm going to have sex, it's going to be my idea and be upon my own provocation and/or seduction of the other person." Again, this is not to elicit another rape, but rather consensual sex, but where they were in the 'power/control' position [of seduction].

Those who are sexually abused, too often do become perpetrators themselves, again, a subconscious attempt to regain the control that was lost and to 'process'/'work through' what happened to them. It's subconscious and it doesn't work, of course, and creates more victims in the process. Interesting in this phenomena is that these victims-become-perpetrators most often subconsciously select victims who are the same age that they were when they themselves were abused. These cases have occurred where the aggressors had no memory of having been abused themselves, but through treatment learned of it. It's one of the reasons that it's so important for abuse victims to get treatment as soon as possible, so as to break that vicious cycle.

~ Lizzy

[quote - Lz wrote ]It's one of the reasons that it's so important for abuse victims to get treatment as soon as possible, so as to break that vicious cycle. [/quote]

This should be put in a golden frame (as I read here once) (Tchoco wants a cracker, prrtt).

But when the victim is a child, the child can not express like an adult and it is up to adults around to recognize symptoms and help.

Exactly, Tchocolatl ~ on adults needing to learn how to recognize some [even any] of the red flags, and knowing when they need to seek someone out for assessment.

Yep Lz!

Tri-me wrote:The threat of a terrorist attack in Canada is very possible, apparently we are on the list. I don't think it is OK to live in fear and create hysteria. This means that the terrorists have won.

Tri-me I forward the thread because I have the feeling I did not explain well about feeling the fear equals not to panic.

What they really want is to take control. The mean is fear. So it is normal to feel fear. But to let them win would be let fear (and them) control us. This is the definition of courage anyway, act despite fear.

Last evening I saw an interview with 3 old veterans Canadian soldiers who did fight in the last WWII. They said they did the war for liberty. They were against the war in Iraq (they said it is a kind of "dirty" war, those are not their exact words, but the meaning. Anyway they were saying this war is not OK with their values). They said, like you, that they would like people to enjoy and cherish the liberty they have fought for.

The interviewer told them that they propably would think that he is a coward, but he would have run away as fast as possible from the battel field. The old soliers laughed and said that the ones who dis so were killed, That while you are on a battle field the best chance to survive is to fight. They were afraid, but they never run away.

This is much what I meant.

Anyway I don't believe people who denied their feelings and feelings or others. Or I dont' trust them. I mean, to use a metaphor, feelings are like children, you have to take care of them but not let them rule.

So to come back to these terrorists, I hope it never occured, anywere, and that it will never occur here, but I agree with you, we should not let them control us.

I heard a commentary from a woman on the radio which I liked very much : we are living in a free world and we won't let it destroyed by fear.

Paula, if you mind, how is the life goes now on London? Do people act differently?

I agree with what you say Tchocolatl and understand feelings in a forum are interpreted by the reader. My dad was a peacekeeper, this is the year of the vetran. I love Canada.

Hi Tri-me ~

My Dad was a Conscientious Objector in WWII before being one became 'fashionable.' At one time, he was going to become a minister; however, he later decided to become an English teacher, instead....and taught intently and beautifully, with commitment.

~ Lizzy

Choco,

You don't read what I have written. You can't seem to follow a logical argument. You just start talking through your hat.

Choco's Thought Processes.

"Oooh....the writer wrote "hat." Hmmmm....A hat is a symbol of a "covering." The writer is trying to cover something up! Something in their past. No!...the writer is trying to cover me up...trying to stifle me...trying to get me to wear a hat! But not my hat...their hat! Wearing a hat is as abusive as punching someone in the head!"

It's nearly impossible to carry on any kind of serious dialogue with you.

YdF

On the abuse issue, it is probably a good thing to point out that
though most abusers were themselves abused, most people
that are abused do not grow up to do the same.

Tri-me wrote:I don't think it is OK to live in fear and create hysteria. This means that the terrorists have won.

how does it help to keep telling ourselves that they are doing it because 'they hate us of old' and want to make us afraid?

as much as we don't care about them as long as they leave us in peace, they don't care about us as long as we leave them in peace. i don't think it's any kind of victory for them that London is scared shitless, but their army continues whatever they were doing before, and mystic arsons ocure where Arabs live in Berlin...

looks to me, looking from outside, that they did manage to make people paranoid, but it prooved only to be counterproductive for their cause.