Book of Mercy #8-10

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
Diane

Post by Diane »

You're welcome DB. That sounds like an interesting book, thanks for mentioning it.

btw Jack thanks for your further considering of those poem/songs Lizzy and I were talking about.

Jack said:
well my point is that I think that both poems that Lizzy and Diane wrote about talk about sex that is very intimate, considerate and private but have nothing to do with love for each other but are helping both toward love.
I see that, too. I won't comment further because I am wary of getting too far away from BoM in this thread. HotChoc has started a new thread so perhaps this topic will come up again there.

Diane
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Diane wrote:
(too much what, Jack?)
I sometimes wonder at the use of emoticons because they might distract from someone trying to get from the words what are the feelings behind what is being written. The emoticons might remove some sense of mystery.

Your words about the shield resonates very strongly with what I experienced in a dream one time but do not remember it well enough to relate it. I do remember that I felt it important enough to write it in out somewhere.

There is something else about a shield and lonliness that I would like to mention and I think it relates to what Simon posted and Leonard's prayer.

In the stuff that Simon posted there is mention of the I-You and the I-It relationship that has been articulated so well by Martin Buber. In an interview that Leonard gave he once said that he felt that the Jewish tradition was failing at providing the experience that he felt that the youth needed but he also said that they would occasionally get a glimpse of it in a book by Martin Buber.
This gives me reason to want to talk about Martin Buber and how he was playing a part in some kind of shield for my lonliness.

I first came across a book by him about 39 years ago and haven't stopped reading him since. That is a big mystery to me. I was a teenager trying to make sense of a Christian experience along with all the other things that a teenager is interested in and I got hooked on reading a Jewish writer who I was told at the time was a Jewish religious writer. I don't think I had any Jewish friends at the time and certanly no one I knew had even heard of Martin Buber.

He certainly wasn't a hit at parties and when everyone else got to demonstrate their compentancy by showing how much they knew about cars or hockey etc. I got to kind of feel alone. No one ever seemed interested in talking about Martin Buber. There was something about him though that made this kind of aloneness alright and so i gave him some attention that could have been used elsewhere.

I came to learn that he wasn't really a religious writer as it is commonly understood and could probably be thought of more as a poet that a religious teacher. he did write poetry
I even found out that he was not the type of person who went into the synagogues but rather the one who would wait outside willing to enter into deep dialogue about the subject matter. That proximity of his to the places that are thought of as holy made me think of two other things about Leonard Cohen that I found curious.
One was that he spoke of BoM as being sunday school stuff. A sunday school is usually a bit off to the side of where the the real action is suppose to be happening.
The other thing is the word precincts that Leonard uses in this poem:
Out of the thousands
who are known,
or who want to be known
as poets,
maybe one or two
are genuine
and the rest are fakes,
hanging around the sacred
precincts
trying to look like the real thing.
Needless to say
I am one of the fakes,
and this is my story
This made me think of who may be the one or two who he thinks are genuine. The word precincts is used to describe the general area around but belonging to the sacred places. Because he clearly stated that people were getting a glimpse of the real thing when opening a book by Martin Buber I tend to think that he would think of Buber as one of the genuine.

But if BoM is sunday school stuff and Martin Buber is in the precincts then where exactly is the sacred place? I've read enough of Martin Buber to know that for him this is the Sacred Place. This place where we struggle to enter into dialogue with each other. I think that Leonard would probably say something along the lines of " the holy places where the races meet"

I've been reading Buber as I said for about 39 years but I can't even begin to pretend that I know all about what he has been writing about but I do know that he points to the importance of true dialogue. There is probably a lot that can be said about what is true dialogue and Buber has said a lot but the one thing that he stressed over and over again is that the basic requirement is that you don't withhold yourself. You don't treat people or poetry like it is some thing to be look at and studied, not essentially. To the extent that you are able you give yourself to what is speaking to you and you allow yourself to be changed by it. You don't withhold yourself.

Leonard says that BOM is sunday school stuff.
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Joe Way
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Post by Joe Way »

Simon, thank you for your thoughts and including Siemerling’s essay.

I think that you provided the heart of what we should be concerned with in your prefatory reamarks and excellent quotes.

As others have mentioned, it is a difficult essay (one of the sort that has a tendency to drive people away from scholarly work-which in my mind is a shame, because it is generally not the concepts that are too difficult, but unfortunately the obfusticating manner in which it is presented that often puts people off). I could write an essay on this using Siemerling’s work as an example, but I’ll spare you.

I certainly don’t mean to disparage Siemerling’s efforts as they are quite insightful on a number of issues. Certainly the relationship of LC to a community whether it be the Montreal Jewish community, his relationship with a number of poets, in particular, Klein and Layton, his relationship to his family, all seem manifest in his work particularly in relation to the notion of “exile.”

I will speak to this a little bit later, but wish to discuss a little more about the distinction between “Prophet “ and “Priest” in the speech that Leonard gave that Siemerling references. In the speech, Leonard marks the distinction between speaking to and speaking for . I thought that, perhaps, this distinction could be illustrated somewhat more concretely using Biblical figures. The prophet figure that I most associate with Biblical text is Isaiah, but we really know nothing about the historical Isaiah. In fact, the text was apparently written over a very long period of time by at least three different authors. It would also be prudent to point out that the Biblical term “prophet” really doesn’t imply the modern day meaning of being able to foretell the future. The Biblical prophets were outsiders advocating a more spiritual existence-therefore speaking to the community in an effort to redirect the attention of the community to different (not current) matters. I apologize now for using Christian imagery to illustrate this, but I could not come up with others that seem to work as well as this does. And again, I am certainly not implying that this concept has Christian roots, it does not.

But let’s examine the figure of John the Baptist in Matthew’s gospel dressed in camel’s hair with a leather belt, subsisting on locusts and wild honey living in the desert of Judea and contrast that with the figure of Jesus, wine-drinker, consorter with sinners and prostitutes who had many devoted followers. I would say that this could be a good example of the difference between “prophet” and “priest.” The reason I bring this up is that in addition to its illustrative purposes, it may also reflect the different influences that Klein and Layton had on LC’s work.

Just what you probably want right now is another long, scholarly article to read, but I think that the article titled, “Neurotic Affiliations: Klein, Layton, Cohen, and the Properties of Influence” by Michael Q. Abraham is one of the best for developing an understanding of LC’s early influences. It has been mentioned before here on the Forum and I believe that it was Greg who mentioned that it changed his perspective dramatically. Here is the link:
http://www.uwo.ca/english/canadianpoetr ... ations.htm

Here is one of the quotes from LC, concerning Klein: “There was a line--there were different lines which I thought I inherited...the Jewish one, the Montreal Jewish one, the one that connected A. M. Klein to my grandfather and my own family, McGill University, and this consecrated expression of poetry. In A. M. Klein there were a lot of those lines that converged, so he was a very important figure to me, beyond the actual poem on the page.”

Abraham then quotes Cohen on Layton: “I think I became friends with Irving Layton...and if he had exercised that master-student relationship...if Irving did in some secret part of his mind feel that he was giving me instruction, he did it in a most subtle and beautiful way. He did it as a friend, he never made me feel that I was sitting at his feet.”

Now, it may be a bit of a force to say that one was “prophet” and one was “priest” but certainly their influence is strong. Abraham uses this quote as the epigram of the work: “I shouldn’t be in Canada at all. Winter is all wrong for me. I belong beside the Mediterranean. My ancestors made a terrible mistake. But I have to keep coming back to Montreal to renew my neurotic affiliations.” The place, of course, where he was returning from was Hydra where he lived in self-imposed exile. The line from the mother in “Night Comes On”-”Go back, go back to the world” was probably uttered in real life by Cohen’s own mother a time or two.

The nature of exile is represented in many different fashions. Certainly for the nation of Israel, it was exile from a place. For Cohen, I suspect that the exile is more pyschic. As Tom pointed out in his discussion of the genesis of the song, “I Can’t Forget”-the line, I was born in chains” didn’t ring true with Leonard. He was born in relative comfort and prosperity while during the same timeframe the reality of the Holocaust was visited upon the Jews of Europe. So it was only an arbitrary accident of birth that separated LC from the many who were chained into the cattle cars. Abraham discusses the poetic implications of this and in fact, contends that it was the reality and horror the Holocaust that drove Klein to madness and silence. If one contrasts this with the self-imposed exile, think of the lines, "I tried in my way to be free" or "I came so far for beauty, I left so much behind," one can see that there is perhaps a psychic pressure that is building which will eventually take its toll on the author.

It has taken me a long time to read the articles and write this and now many other things have been brought up in the thread, I will let others comment on the articles, but one quick aside to Tom regarding the numbering of the Psalms-I note that in Stranger Music, he refers to them by their first lines.

Doron, I will look forward to your thoughts on the “Prophet”-”Priest” and, of course, your thoughts on “Exile.” You may wish to get to some different psalms before discussing this and I’ll certainly understand, but hopefully my bringing this up now will be a foreshadowing. I have to undergo a minor eye procedure tomorrow which will probably keep me away from the computer for several days. So I’ll see you all later.

Joe
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tomsakic
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Post by tomsakic »

Thank you, Joe, for this nice writing, and I'll be thinking of you these days;-)

There's so much going on simultaneously in this thread that I don't know what's going on. Indeed, Prophet/Priest topic brings us to deeply interesting discussion about Klein & Cohen and Siemerling's essays, and thank you Joe for remembering the most important Abraham's work on "neurotic affiliations". I am particularly glad because this brought us back to the topic of the exile, mentioned in our talk about previous psalms. I believe it's on my trace of understanding Leonard's idea of exile (where he still is). But I lost the connection with the current one. We're on #9, yes? :wink:

Google Alert brought today again this old link from mid-2006, from Jewish Theatre website, it was reprinted here in the Forum. The article, written by Sharonne Cohen, mentiones many of Jewish topics in Cohen's work we mentioned in this long thread (prophetic voice, Klein, Layton, Holocaust, BoM etc.):

viewtopic.php?p=67167#67167

I mentioned Irving Layton, and maybe he should enter this discussion. If Klein was prophet, and Cohen priest / kohen, Layton did present himself as the Messiah (and his meoirs are titled Waiting for the Messiah).

Maybe the boys made secret conspiracy, who will be prophet, who messiah, and who the priest?:-)
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

Joe Way wrote: Doron, I will look forward to your thoughts on the “Prophet”-”Priest” and, of course, your thoughts on “Exile.” You may wish to get to some different psalms before discussing this and I’ll certainly understand, but hopefully my bringing this up now will be a foreshadowing. I have to undergo a minor eye procedure tomorrow which will probably keep me away from the computer for several days. So I’ll see you all later.
Joe,

I hope you will recover fully and be back with us soon.

You are right about Siemerling’s article. I often wonder why scholarly articles are written in such a mixed-up way. I guess some people, even very bright ones, never learn how to write clearly.

About prophet and priest; I think LC may have read during his early Jewish education the classical Hebrew article (he probably read it in English translation) by the Jewish essayist Asher Ginsberg, who is better known by his pseudonym Ahad Ha’am (“One of the people”), titled “Priest and Prophet” (1893). In this article Ginsberg says that both positions are essential for society, and exist in a kind of equilibrium, in tension and harmony, like the forces of nature. The prophet is the trail-blazer, the idealist; he usually has one great idea (such as universal justice, in the case of the prophets of Israel, according to Ginsberg), for which he fights. This ideal can never be fulfilled, and therefore he is always frustrated and angry. The priest, on the other hand, follows in the wake of the prophet (like Aaron had followed Moses), conserves what is possible and carries it on. He accepts the reality and lives with it. The prophet complains that the priest is not fulfilling the ideal, but the priest knows that ideals cannot be fully realized.

As for the example you give, Joe: John the Baptist can certainly be regarded as a prophet, but Jesus as a priest? I would say that he better fits the figure of the prophet as well.

We don’t have the full text of LC’s lecture on this subject, only what is quoted by Siemerling. What he says about the possible combination of prophet and priest in one figure is very intriguing, and perhaps he would have liked to see himself in this position. I wish we had the full text so we could better understand his position on this issue, regarding both his fellow poets and himself.

This had gotten rather long already, so “Exile” would have to be postponed once again.
DBCohen
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Post by DBCohen »

Tom,

Yes, supposedly we are still on I.9, and perhaps it's better not to stray too far and wide. After all, we can’t hope to cover all aspects of LC and his world in this one thread, so perhaps we’d better stay as close as we can to BoM and what it has to offer, even if straying into side-roads is unavoidable. It's all very tempting, but there's simply too much.

The article by Sharonne Cohen is very basic, and does not add something meaningful to what we already know. The article by Abraham, on the other hand (mentioned by Joe above), is huge and very illuminating, although I don’t agree with some of his interpretations of LC’s poems. But it is certainly a rich mine of material on LC, Klein and Layton, and contains many intriguing insights (and by the way, what about Frank Scott?). But in order to really digest and utilize all these materials we will need to do it full time, which none of us can afford to do, unfortunately.
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Hi Lizzy

Have you deserted me?
I'm trying to study this BoM with these other men here in this thread and they seem to be ignoring me. It makes me feel like I don't have any friends here. I wonder if any of them have any idea of what it is like to study without a friend.

Jack
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

DBCohen wrote:Tom,

The article by Sharonne Cohen is very basic, and does not add something meaningful to what we already know.
What is most important about that article is that it takes away from what might be one of the most meaningful things that we know about Leonard's songs namely:
Sharonne says that the words are
bird on a wire and Leonard sings
bird on the wire
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Jack ~

No... I haven't deserted you. I'll be round soon :D . No time at this moment, with oppressive work overload, but I'll be back... and trust you'll be standing there, as Buber was outside the 'synagogue' looking to converse with those who were interested and willing 8) .

Meanwhile, others may join in with you, anyway :D .

Regarding your above comment, a long time ago I did what I could to 'explain' it the best I could surmise it. I'll see if I can find and bring it here.


~ Lizzy
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

lizzytysh wrote: Regarding your above comment, a long time ago I did what I could to 'explain' it the best I could surmise it. I'll see if I can find and bring it here.
That isn't necessary as it is not relevant to the discussion. I was just pointing out that sometimes these professional writers cover the truth.
Glad that you are still with me.

Jack
BoHo

Post by BoHo »

+/-
Last edited by BoHo on Wed May 16, 2007 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Simon
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Post by Simon »

Psalm I.10

You have sweetened your word on my lips. My son too has heard the song that does not belong to him. From Abraham to Augustine, the nations have not known you, though every cry, every curse is raised on the fondation of your holiness. You placed me in this mystery and you let me sing, though only from this curious corner. You bound me to my fingerprints, as you bind every man, except the ones who need no binding. You led me to this field where I can dance with a broken knee. You led me safely to this night, you gave me a crown of darkness and light, and tears to greet my enemy. Who can tell of your glory, who can number your forms, who dares expound the interior life of god? And now you feed my household, you gather them to sleep, to dream, to dream freely, you surround them with the fence of all that I have seen. Sleep, my son, my small daughter, sleep – this night, this mercy has no boundaries.

The last pages have been quite dense, making it difficult indeed to digest everything without compromising our respective real life agendas. In my view this thread has become very interesting and I have been enjoying the endeavour and will continue no doubt to do so as we carry on. It is hard to comment on everthing that has come up here lately. I thought that we might as well carry on. Inevitably, what we've learned so far, even if not addressed directly will transpire in the analysis of the next psalms. Nothing prohibits of course coming back on at anytime with more in depth commentaries on the past postings. Moving on to psalm I.10 will give us back some commun focus.

to dream, to dream freely
Is that a possible definition of mercy?

Joe, I hope you are reading this bright and clear. I enjoyed your last post and Abraham's article. No doubt that we'll refer to it again and again.
Last edited by Simon on Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cohen is the koan
Why else would I still be stuck here
lazariuk
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Post by lazariuk »

Psalm I.10

You have sweetened your word on my lips. My son too has heard the song that does not belong to him. From Abraham to Augustine, the nations have not known you, though every cry, every curse is raised on the foundation of your holiness. You placed me in this mystery and you let me sing, though only from this curious corner. You bound me to my fingerprints, as you bind every man, except the ones who need no binding. You led me to this field where I can dance with a broken knee. You led me safely to this night, you gave me a crown of darkness and light, and tears to greet my enemy. Who can tell of your glory, who can number your forms, who dares expound the interior life of god? And now you feed my household, you gather them to sleep, to dream, to dream freely, you surround them with the fence of all that I have seen. Sleep, my son, my small daughter, sleep – this night, this mercy has no boundaries.
What stands out for me is the one question in the midst of all the statements.
Diane

Post by Diane »

Just to mention that I too am enjoying this thread, including the informed pieces of all of the regular contributors. Although I hope there isn't going to be a test at the end.

Diane
Tony
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Post by Tony »

End?
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