leonardcohenforum.com

Uploaded by "igorCK2803" -

"The Partisan" -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWSOr3M7Mj0

From Albert -

"Take This Waltz"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1A66Ju390U

BEAUTIFUL - and wonderful perspective! New camera Albert? The sound is incredible!! Your video is picking up the audio so clearly from stage left - Dino and Javier!!! As usual - lovely duet between Hattie and Leonard!

And -

"Hallelujah" -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIAB4K0N ... re=channel

FANTASTIC! Leonard Cohen takes back his magnificent "Hallelujah!" A beautiful intense, but quieter, prayer-like performance. 6:00 -touches his heart about telling truth - no laugh, or even a smile, when he says he "did not come to Zagreb to fool you." At 6:34 - hands together as in prayer.

sturgess66 wrote: FANTASTIC! Leonard Cohen takes back his magnificent "Hallelujah!" A beautiful intense, but quieter, prayer-like performance. 6:00 -touches his heart about telling truth - no laugh, or even a smile, when he says he "did not come to Zagreb to fool you." At 6:34 - hands together as in prayer.

Which only proves that his act is thoroughly rehearsed.
The same line he said in Dublin, Lucca, Wien, Bratislava, Belgrade, Barcelona, Zagreb and Salzburg that I've seen so far.
And surely at every other venue that I did not attend.
And of course every town's inhabitants were very flattered but it is no proof that he honestly means what he said.

Might I remind you that original line goes:
"Baby I've been here before, I've seen this room, I've walked this floor ...
There was a time you let me know what's really goes on below
but now you never show it to me, do ya?"

Which he obviously sings to the owneress of his currently favorite vagina.
When he twists his lyrics into
"Oh people, I've been here before ..."
It obviously means:
"I've fucked you all ... before"

Considering that he is a very smart fellow (he made up all of these lyrics that gave us sleepless nights)
we can only conclude that he expects that most of the audience will receive it on a flat level and not understand a deeper meaning that is basically insulting.
Ironically, this "flat level" is "flattering".

Regards to you and him
Juraj

That is an interesting reading of the performance. I am not sure I would agree with the level of cynicism which I feel you are attributing to the lyric but there is no doubt that it is a carefully rehearsed and polished show. I would agree that deification is no good for anyone and a bit of critical thinking is always welcome. However, I think the fact that he is 75 cannot be underestimated, our brain does not have the same plasticity at that age and for him to come up with stunning unique one liners every night may be expecting too much, even of Leonard. Anyway I am going to enjoy Sligo even if I do hear the same jokes as at Kilmainham in 2008.

Juraj Mucko wrote:.The same line he said in Dublin, Lucca, Wien, Bratislava, Belgrade, Barcelona, Zagreb and Salzburg that I've seen so far.
And surely at every other venue that I did not attend.Juraj

Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot remember that line from Graz, although I remember it clearly from Zagreb.

Juraj Mucko wrote:

sturgess66 wrote: FANTASTIC! Leonard Cohen takes back his magnificent "Hallelujah!" A beautiful intense, but quieter, prayer-like performance. 6:00 -touches his heart about telling truth - no laugh, or even a smile, when he says he "did not come to Zagreb to fool you." At 6:34 - hands together as in prayer.

...

Regards to you and him
Juraj

The musician in me loves, respects and appreciates how well rehearsed are Leonard Cohen and the UHTC. The heart and soul in me feel and respond to the particular performance.

I have left above the only part of your post that interests me.

I'm humbled to be included with Leonard in someone's "regards" - even yours.

sturgess66 wrote:

Juraj Mucko wrote:

sturgess66 wrote: FANTASTIC! Leonard Cohen takes back his magnificent "Hallelujah!" A beautiful intense, but quieter, prayer-like performance. 6:00 -touches his heart about telling truth - no laugh, or even a smile, when he says he "did not come to Zagreb to fool you." At 6:34 - hands together as in prayer.

...

Regards to you and him
Juraj

The musician in me loves, respects and appreciates how well rehearsed are Leonard Cohen and the UHTC. The heart and soul in me feel and respond to the particular performance.

I have left above the only part of your post that interests me.

So, basically, you are open to any opinion as long as it supports your own?

zagi wrote:

tomsakic wrote:Thanks to hint by Paul Zagreb, I just bought today's issue of leading weekly newspaper GLOBUS - three full pages of review written by one of the most Cohen -knowleadgable music critic here, Sven Semencic.

There's no web version. I will try scan it. The title itself is worth translating: "Arena would be valuable of its price it was built only for Cohen"! Other lines include: "the best concert ever in this city", "sound mix never heard on this country's stages", "10,000 people interested in this very show with their lives ... who know who is Sharon Robinson or Roscoe Beck ... 10,000 people giving hope that Croatia will one day be a normal country".

This is probably the best recap of what Leonard's ZG show meant not only to his fans but to this city and country as well. To call this event a concert is like trying to capture a river in a cup.

Thanks Tom & zagi. I feel very humbled. It was a pleasure to share such a wonderful experience with the people of Zagreb.

Wendy

PS We are just back from our roadtrip from leafy Warwickshire, England to Zagreb and back via Salzburg - 2,929 miles in total (c 4,700 Km). Would we do it again? YES, yes, in a blink, 40 degree temperatures and all!

Hi

Just adding my humble opinions on this and Cohen's rehearse songs etc.

He has setup a polished show and the setlist is the same as the first concert, you know what your getting. I would love it if he even changed the songs arround, but that is Cohen for you, its tried its tested and it works. We heard all the jokes before and will laugh again. IN Kilmainhan, all what he said was heard before and said at the same spot on the show. His acts are not spontaneous and are well prepared. That is why his show is so good. The guy is 76, you can't expect him to be a spurr of the moment kind of guy and do a concert from his heart. Many years ago he would have, and you got the good the bad and the indifferent performances. Now his performances are more polished therefore they you are going to a well prepared show and all parts are prepared.
Although i would like to see him change it, we can't really expect a man of his age to change his routine too much
amcgee

Juraj Mucko wrote:

sturgess66 wrote: FANTASTIC! Leonard Cohen takes back his magnificent "Hallelujah!" A beautiful intense, but quieter, prayer-like performance. 6:00 -touches his heart about telling truth - no laugh, or even a smile, when he says he "did not come to Zagreb to fool you." At 6:34 - hands together as in prayer.

Which only proves that his act is thoroughly rehearsed.
The same line he said in Dublin, Lucca, Wien, Bratislava, Belgrade, Barcelona, Zagreb and Salzburg that I've seen so far.
And surely at every other venue that I did not attend.
And of course every town's inhabitants were very flattered but it is no proof that he honestly means what he said.

Might I remind you that original line goes:
"Baby I've been here before, I've seen this room, I've walked this floor ...
There was a time you let me know what's really goes on below
but now you never show it to me, do ya?"

Which he obviously sings to the owneress of his currently favorite vagina.
When he twists his lyrics into
"Oh people, I've been here before ..."
It obviously means:
"I've fucked you all ... before"

Considering that he is a very smart fellow (he made up all of these lyrics that gave us sleepless nights)
we can only conclude that he expects that most of the audience will receive it on a flat level and not understand a deeper meaning that is basically insulting.
Ironically, this "flat level" is "flattering".

Regards to you and him
Juraj

I dare to say not only Leonard's songs revolve around vagina(s) in one way or the other (heck, if you put this world to few simple facts, only vagina remains!), and him as any other artist has his way of taking "advantage" of his audience's many levels of mind and reason, you accept to be subjected to that slavery the very moment you buy ticket to these shows. My girlfriend said she cannot make up her mind about Leonard being either arrogant or humble, and I believe it's exactly these two "virtues" and all that fine shades that lie in between them that make Leonard so successful in telling his story and speaking his mind.

And let's admit it, we're all being fucked from the very first day we drop out of that very vagina into this world, over and over and over again, sometimes it's harsh and in your face and sometimes it's subtle, almost sublime (this is proper LC language right there), but it's all violence and rape when you look at it from that unrealistic and almost imaginative "neutral point of view". I admit I was easily convinced in this appearance of an old man singing beautiful songs, all humble and warm and cuddly like any old man or very young babies are. But unlike babies this all man has really "been here before", he's walked so many of these floors (vaginas if you prefer, both lower and upper ones ), and he's had his fair share of dealing with people not willing or able or prepared to accept his views and ideas and ways.

Leonard is who he is because he's so good at finding these things in you, these strings he can only play so nicely that instead of feeling raped you feel loved, and how is that different to many of today's religions or other beliefs. He is not some sweet little old man with happy thoughts and nice bedtime stories, he's the guy who will tell you how superficial and shallow you are without you even knowing it, he'll tell you how naive and selfish you are without a hint of hesitation in his smile, but he'll do it so beautifully that you'll be grateful for entire experience, both during show as well as during aftershocks you experience afterwards, dealing with revelations about yourself.

And one other thing, without his masters of music and without his fans (out of which many do not even care for words, but for music) Leonard would not have all this impact he has... this is just how art works and how we like to receive it. "Give me absolute control over every living soul and lie beside me baby thats an order!"

apologies for wall of text, i have no idea what i just wrote and i do not dare reread it

amcgee wrote:Hi

Just adding my humble opinions on this and Cohen's rehearse songs etc.

He has setup a polished show and the setlist is the same as the first concert, you know what your getting. I would love it if he even changed the songs arround, but that is Cohen for you, its tried its tested and it works... His acts are not spontaneous and are well prepared. That is why his show is so good.
amcgee

I agree with you that the shows are (very) well rehearsed and polished, but I do not agree that this prohibits changes. The core set remains the same but some songs may be changed around from night to night, venue to venue, particularly the 2-3 songs before Anthem in the first half and in the middle of the second set. They work from a playlist which they rehearse and it was very noticeable (and audible from where we were) in both Zagreb and Salzburg that Leonard was telling the band via Roscoe what he wanted to play next. This happened for the more "fixed" songs such as Everybody Knows as well as in the slots where changes can and are made e.g. the insertion of Born in Chains in Salzburg. So rehearsed and polished, yes but there are also some spontaneous changes too. Actually, the best example of spontaneity I can think of was at the end of the San Jose when Leonard took the whole band by surprise when he announced he wanted to sing Democracy at the end of the show!

Wendy

Juraj Mucko wrote:

sturgess66 wrote: FANTASTIC! Leonard Cohen takes back his magnificent "Hallelujah!" A beautiful intense, but quieter, prayer-like performance. 6:00 -touches his heart about telling truth - no laugh, or even a smile, when he says he "did not come to Zagreb to fool you." At 6:34 - hands together as in prayer.

Which only proves that his act is thoroughly rehearsed.
The same line he said in Dublin, Lucca, Wien, Bratislava, Belgrade, Barcelona, Zagreb and Salzburg that I've seen so far.
And surely at every other venue that I did not attend.
And of course every town's inhabitants were very flattered but it is no proof that he honestly means what he said.

Might I remind you that original line goes:
"Baby I've been here before, I've seen this room, I've walked this floor ...
There was a time you let me know what's really goes on below
but now you never show it to me, do ya?"

Which he obviously sings to the owneress of his currently favorite vagina.
When he twists his lyrics into
"Oh people, I've been here before ..."
It obviously means:
"I've fucked you all ... before"

Considering that he is a very smart fellow (he made up all of these lyrics that gave us sleepless nights)
we can only conclude that he expects that most of the audience will receive it on a flat level and not understand a deeper meaning that is basically insulting.
Ironically, this "flat level" is "flattering".

Regards to you and him
Juraj

Juraj,
I feel that you have written some of this post to shock, but that's okay....
I wanted to answer a couple of things.
First, in the concerts I have attended, I think there has been an understanding that the line "I didn't come to ...[name of the city] ... to fool you" is a joke between Leonard and the audience. Much like the jokes in "Tower of Song," when the audience applauds his one-hand keyboard solo and he says, "You're very kind." I don't think that people in the audience (falsely) think they're being singled out: I think they understand very well that he does it in each city. BUT, we know that to each concert he and the band give such amazing energy that of course it's incredibly special. That's what live music is about. But I'm sure you know this, because you seem to have attended so many shows.

I think you have conflated three verses of Hallelujah here to make your point (which I disagree with, but let's stick to the lyrics for now).
At Zagreb, the verse beginning "Oh people, I've been here before, I've seen this room, I've walked this floor" continues "I used to live alone before I knew you/I've seen your flag...."
The verse "There was a time you let me know what's really going on below...." is a different verse. I haven't yet heard a version in which these words are connected to the "walking this floor" words.
The verse in which he inserts the name of the city is yet another verse: it begins "I did my best, it wasn't much."
I'm not sure what you mean by the "original line." If you mean the first recording on "Various Positions," of these three verses, there is only the verse "I did my best, it wasn't much/I couldn't feel so I tried to touch/ I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you/ And even though it all went wrong/ I'll stand before the Lord of Song/ With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah". The other two verses you mention are not there.

I think that the idea that Leonard would need to think up new lines of patter between songs for each concert or couple of concerts is just .... well, I don't know, I'd rather he kept writing songs.

I see that I have initiated some serious exchange of thoughts here.

Zagi, I bow to your insight.
Indeed, many songs in popular music are about sexual act and sexual organs.
Look closer at Peter Gabriel's almost entire opus not to mention Madonna's Rain.

I don't object to Leonard's choice of songs nor to the way he handles the show. In fact, I admire him for that even more.
It is not about the few of us who attend too many shows in a row. It is tailored to his general audience who see him only once.
An tailored to them - it is perfect!
I don't object to the fact that he is not singing my personal favorites Light as a breeze and Came so far for beauty. These tell about my own intimate experiences and these are different from person to person.

But I stand by my observation that it is somewhat too shallow for a man of his caliber trying to flatter the audience in that way (I didn't come to ....).
Especially in non English speaking countries it is considered a great privilege for domestic savages if the visiting star correctly pronounces the name of the city.
In Wien 2008 concert he did not even bother to learn that it is not Vienna but Wien. If he had said Becs then only Hungarians and Croats would even understand and laugh or grin because Slovenians call it Dunaj. Did you lose my line of thought?
I think to highly of him and I care to much about his lyrics to look at it so lightly.
If he was say Mick Jagger or Robbie Williams then I wouldn't care.

Juraj

Thanks to Juraj and Zagi, my brave compatriots, the word vagina is used here after so long time!

And yes, Light as the Breeze is about it!




Now, the discussion, it's nice to see some spirits up here. I see Juraj's intentionally shocking post as the way to say that it's not everything the man does "the most beatiful so far" etc. Cohen, after all, always welcomed criticism and people with their own thoughts. But OK, this is fan forum, so we can't expect people not saying yes, thank you, amazing, beautiful etc. for ten times on a page, were they on the show in question or not.

Thus saying, I will use this opportunity to say here that many Forum members in Zagreb were not quite taken with Dino Soldo's contribution to the band (I will quote somebody saying that "the curtain around him so we don't see him as he plays would be welcomed"). Or, that quite a number of Forum members weren't so taken by some of the new songs.


Juraj said to us there that he doesn't watch new movies until 5 years pass, and if somebody remembers them after that period, they're worth spending 2 hours. We can say that the same goes for the songs. See Dear Heather: much maligned on this Forum, and not included in the 2008-2010 tour, 6 years after its release it's greater album than ever. Stands the test of time. Ten New Songs was also attacked, while today it's maybe the best Cohen album in public reception. The time will show for the next album.

tomsakic wrote:Thus saying, I will use this opportunity to say here that many Forum members in Zagreb were not quite taken with Dino Soldo's contribution to the band (I will quote somebody saying that "the curtain around him so we don't see him as he plays would be welcomed"). Or, that quite a number of Forum members weren't so taken by some of the new songs.

Now that you've opened up this Dino Soldo subject ...

Ever since I first saw him in Dublin 2008 I did not like particulary and only him out of Cohen's virtuoso band.
I particulary liked Neil Larsen and Javier Mas.
Every time Dino Soldo played a solo I asked myself "now what does it have to do with anything".
And he was announced as the greatest virtuoso in a all stars virtuoso band???
In Lucca 2008 we remeber Cohen interrupting him in the middle of his solo by saying "Thank you, Dino" after which Dino gave him a look with no hearts in it.
By late 2008 in Wien it seemed that Dino was finally tamed.
In the 2009 tour he kind of "played for the team" although in my opinion he never really fitted in at all.
And he was stealing the show by moving when all other band members were very still.

Here comes 2010 and Zagreb.
Dino was on his toes all the time, stealing the show by being the only real live person on the stage. He received standing ovations for whatever he did.

It seems that they had a long talk on their way to Salzburg because in Salzburg Dino was very still.
But!
In one song after Dino's clarinet solo (which in melodic or harmonic way had nothing to do with anything) the crowd was clapping and cheering and screaming in the Beatle mania way.
The music stopped. Cohen was looking at Dino and Dino was looking back with no expression on his face.
Finally, he gave Cohen a grin which I read as "You just don't get it, old man, do you?"

Next in Famous blue raincoat, Dino had a harmonica solo and again the crow went bananas.
Silence. They are again looking at each other.
Finally, Dino raises his eyebrows which I read as "Your turn to make them go bananas"

What to say of this all?
I still don't like his contribution to the band. He is playing for himself. But he is excellent at that.

Any input is welcome.

Juraj