College Student looking for information....
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Sore Loser
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:05 am
Lightning,
Interesting. I thought I was the only one who had a problem with this particular song. The first time I heard Chelsea Hotel #2, those two lines you quoted leapt out at me. The ending phrase, "Besides, I don't think of you that often" seemed to me to be more than a little cruel. And "I can't keep track of each fallen robin" seems either dismissive or almost like bragging about the notches on his bedpost. Of course, I could be wrong.
Plus, why did LC have to reveal that it was JJ servicing him? I always cringe when I listen to his introductions to this song on the various concert cd's. The audience's knowing laughter is particularly grating.
SL
Interesting. I thought I was the only one who had a problem with this particular song. The first time I heard Chelsea Hotel #2, those two lines you quoted leapt out at me. The ending phrase, "Besides, I don't think of you that often" seemed to me to be more than a little cruel. And "I can't keep track of each fallen robin" seems either dismissive or almost like bragging about the notches on his bedpost. Of course, I could be wrong.
Plus, why did LC have to reveal that it was JJ servicing him? I always cringe when I listen to his introductions to this song on the various concert cd's. The audience's knowing laughter is particularly grating.
SL
Apparently she didn't think of him that often either as she never recorded any of his songs and I don't recall his being mentioned in her biographies (David Dalton, Janis, Peggy Caserta,Going Down with Janis, , Myra Freidman, Buried Alive) "I never once heard you say "I need you..." he sang wistfully.
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tom.d.stiller
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:18 am
- Location: ... between the lines ...
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True, Anne
I was always reminded of a song by Bob Dylan, "If you see her, say hello" from the "Blood on the tracks" album (first recorded in New York a few weeks after the release of "New Skin"):
Chelsea Hotel #2, by talking about a dead woman, Janis, reduces the line to a representation of the macho attitude.
Tom
I was always reminded of a song by Bob Dylan, "If you see her, say hello" from the "Blood on the tracks" album (first recorded in New York a few weeks after the release of "New Skin"):
In Dylan's song , I think, it is partly the attitude of "no one should know that I can be hurt", but in part it is the tenderness of a man who doesn't want his former love being hurt by the thought of having hurt him.She might think that I've forgotten her, don't tell her it isn't so.
Chelsea Hotel #2, by talking about a dead woman, Janis, reduces the line to a representation of the macho attitude.
Tom
Well, here we go..... 
~ at first, I took the line regarding "fallen robin" to be a sexual reference of "conquest" [or thereabouts], and I wasn't very comfortable with it, as it seemed dismissive and unappreciative of their exchange; however, it did constitute blatant honesty [which could be considered at least "admirable" in its own fashion] regarding many of the sexual exploits of the 60s [not exclusive to the males, by the way]......however, the more I listened, the more I thought it to be a comment on her death.
Many lost their lives and/or their sanity during the 60s, with the drug culture.....performers, as well as many others actively engaged in the various drug cultures. Janis was only one of many who died an untimely death during that era, many in Leonard's circle of friends, as well, I am certain. He was immersed in his own way in the Chelsea Hotel scene. Then there was Hydra. Then there was the road and all the excesses of there, the Chelsea, Hydra, and virtually everywhere else he would have traveled during that period. He went to Roshi for a feeling of centeredness and peace that he found impossible to find elsewhere.
Robins are beautiful birds to look at, and as I recall from my childhood, to hear as well. If Janis is viewed as a robin, it's highly complimentary to her. She was one of many beautiful birds lost during that time [consider, even as unlikely as it may seem, that the British term for a woman during that time was a "bird"]. To say that he couldn't keep track of each fallen robin is to say he can't keep at the front of his mind all who were lost, in this case, presumably the women he's known and known of. Remembering that he also lost the dear woman friend who painted the picture of the woman "emerging from/being consumed by fire on the back of his one album, I'm certain he would be more likely to remember her as another fallen robin and one he would keep more at the front of his mind than he would Janis, pretty much a "one night stand" ~ despite her fame and any other admiration they may have held for each other. Even the literal "keep[ing] track" of who all died during that period would be difficult for him, I'm certain.
Janis did not want an emotional commitment and, as already mentioned, Leonard laments that in his way in his song. The fact of addressing it with a "lament" is also complimentary to her. It also seems to me that he had a genuine affinity with her...."we are ugly, but we have the music" and he understood her escapism into the drugs.
As Anne has said, he has just written a song about her. So, in my mind, even though he may not think of her that often, when he does so, it's with tenderness [conveyed in the song's style and the softness in his voice]. When she really "came upon" him, as he sat in the "bar" in South Florida [was it Miami/Ft. Lauderdale?], it was with such strength of memory and feeling that he felt compelled to write a song about her and did.
Even though my initial response to this song was one of confusion [this doesn't seem like the Leonard I "know" and admire], it has come to be for me a tremendous tribute to Janis, and all that was lost through her death, and the underscoring of its tragedy.
To the men and women out there who have enjoyed or taken advantage of a one-night stand, I can only wonder [honestly] how many would feel compelled to compose a song about them; how many of his other one-night stands has he ever composed a song about; and I've never viewed their exchange as a "servicing" by Janis. In its own crazy, sixties way, it was a real exchange [for which he portended to be Kris Kristofferson
] between two people feeling terribly alone and finding their own level of comfort in each other, and I feel that this is witnessed in "Chelsea Hotel" and its initial line, "I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel......"
~ Elizabeth
~ at first, I took the line regarding "fallen robin" to be a sexual reference of "conquest" [or thereabouts], and I wasn't very comfortable with it, as it seemed dismissive and unappreciative of their exchange; however, it did constitute blatant honesty [which could be considered at least "admirable" in its own fashion] regarding many of the sexual exploits of the 60s [not exclusive to the males, by the way]......however, the more I listened, the more I thought it to be a comment on her death. Many lost their lives and/or their sanity during the 60s, with the drug culture.....performers, as well as many others actively engaged in the various drug cultures. Janis was only one of many who died an untimely death during that era, many in Leonard's circle of friends, as well, I am certain. He was immersed in his own way in the Chelsea Hotel scene. Then there was Hydra. Then there was the road and all the excesses of there, the Chelsea, Hydra, and virtually everywhere else he would have traveled during that period. He went to Roshi for a feeling of centeredness and peace that he found impossible to find elsewhere.
Robins are beautiful birds to look at, and as I recall from my childhood, to hear as well. If Janis is viewed as a robin, it's highly complimentary to her. She was one of many beautiful birds lost during that time [consider, even as unlikely as it may seem, that the British term for a woman during that time was a "bird"]. To say that he couldn't keep track of each fallen robin is to say he can't keep at the front of his mind all who were lost, in this case, presumably the women he's known and known of. Remembering that he also lost the dear woman friend who painted the picture of the woman "emerging from/being consumed by fire on the back of his one album, I'm certain he would be more likely to remember her as another fallen robin and one he would keep more at the front of his mind than he would Janis, pretty much a "one night stand" ~ despite her fame and any other admiration they may have held for each other. Even the literal "keep[ing] track" of who all died during that period would be difficult for him, I'm certain.
Janis did not want an emotional commitment and, as already mentioned, Leonard laments that in his way in his song. The fact of addressing it with a "lament" is also complimentary to her. It also seems to me that he had a genuine affinity with her...."we are ugly, but we have the music" and he understood her escapism into the drugs.
As Anne has said, he has just written a song about her. So, in my mind, even though he may not think of her that often, when he does so, it's with tenderness [conveyed in the song's style and the softness in his voice]. When she really "came upon" him, as he sat in the "bar" in South Florida [was it Miami/Ft. Lauderdale?], it was with such strength of memory and feeling that he felt compelled to write a song about her and did.
Even though my initial response to this song was one of confusion [this doesn't seem like the Leonard I "know" and admire], it has come to be for me a tremendous tribute to Janis, and all that was lost through her death, and the underscoring of its tragedy.
To the men and women out there who have enjoyed or taken advantage of a one-night stand, I can only wonder [honestly] how many would feel compelled to compose a song about them; how many of his other one-night stands has he ever composed a song about; and I've never viewed their exchange as a "servicing" by Janis. In its own crazy, sixties way, it was a real exchange [for which he portended to be Kris Kristofferson
] between two people feeling terribly alone and finding their own level of comfort in each other, and I feel that this is witnessed in "Chelsea Hotel" and its initial line, "I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel......"~ Elizabeth
Yes, and regarding their affinity, Janis's depression took the path of suicide, whereas Leonard survived. Many others found that "sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll" weren't enough to sustain them either and gave way to suicide, as well. The film "Chelsea Walls," which I'm again remembering I'd meant to comment on in here, shows a young and serious man, admirable in his manner and integrity, also gave in to the suicide escape from reality. Leonard, thank G..d, endured his depression.
Thanks for affirming my memories of the robin's song, Paula. It's been a long time since I've heard one. As far as the use of birds in songs, Chi Coltrane wrote a song called "Flyaway Bluebird," one line of which is, "He can't help what he do / he's my flyaway bluuuuuebirrrrrrd......" To be fondly remembered by Leonard [or anyone] as a robin would be something, that I can only believe, Janis would appreciate and thank him for.
Thanks for affirming my memories of the robin's song, Paula. It's been a long time since I've heard one. As far as the use of birds in songs, Chi Coltrane wrote a song called "Flyaway Bluebird," one line of which is, "He can't help what he do / he's my flyaway bluuuuuebirrrrrrd......" To be fondly remembered by Leonard [or anyone] as a robin would be something, that I can only believe, Janis would appreciate and thank him for.
chelsea hotel/janis joplin
When speaking about this song and Janis in the Harry Rasky film in 1980 (Song of L C ), Leonard explained some lines as indicating that although there was a brief relationship, he was never an important figure in her life, and probably vice versa. They were friends and he admired her as a singer.
It seems that more recently, in an interview in 1994, he expressed regret that he had for years been so indiscreet in naming her in association with the song. " It's an indiscretion for which I'm very sorry and if there is some way of apologising to a ghost, I want to apologise now for having committed that indiscretion" Quote taken from Jim Devlin's book " L C. in his own words"
It seems that more recently, in an interview in 1994, he expressed regret that he had for years been so indiscreet in naming her in association with the song. " It's an indiscretion for which I'm very sorry and if there is some way of apologising to a ghost, I want to apologise now for having committed that indiscretion" Quote taken from Jim Devlin's book " L C. in his own words"
I saw a documentory of Janis Joplin years ago after she had died. She had been badly bullied at school and had gone back on one of those reunion type days just to show that she had made it. And on the way home she picked up a young guy as I believe she used to do and screwed him in the back of the limo and then threw him out.
A totally screwed up lady I think. She came across as a very sad pathetic needy person. I don't mean that to sound nasty she just seemed very fragile. Some one who had both sex and alcohol addictions. Shame one of my favourite albums was Janis Jopin and the Big Brother Holding Co
A totally screwed up lady I think. She came across as a very sad pathetic needy person. I don't mean that to sound nasty she just seemed very fragile. Some one who had both sex and alcohol addictions. Shame one of my favourite albums was Janis Jopin and the Big Brother Holding Co
Yes, I've heard that quote, too, Margaret. I interpreted it as his meaning that the indiscretion was revealing that they had been intimate period ["kiss and tell"], not that the song itself was so terrible or that his memories of her were less than positive.
I also, even in the song itself, did not take it to suggest in any way that they were in love or any semblance of love. The song makes their music connection clear, and I also hear in it that, though he liked her music, she wasn't necessarily his favourite in that realm [not in the realm of "love" or relationships]. It also for me suggests that the nature and casualness of their physical/emotional connection was a fairly common substitute for "love" by others they knew in the field of music, then, and probably now.
I remember hearing about the limousine episode, too, a long time ago. Janis did seem to be a tragic figure with the desperate way she lived her short life. Perhaps it wouldn't seem so tragic now, had she survived it. It may have been looked back on more as "par for the course." I always liked her music and still have that album.
I also, even in the song itself, did not take it to suggest in any way that they were in love or any semblance of love. The song makes their music connection clear, and I also hear in it that, though he liked her music, she wasn't necessarily his favourite in that realm [not in the realm of "love" or relationships]. It also for me suggests that the nature and casualness of their physical/emotional connection was a fairly common substitute for "love" by others they knew in the field of music, then, and probably now.
I remember hearing about the limousine episode, too, a long time ago. Janis did seem to be a tragic figure with the desperate way she lived her short life. Perhaps it wouldn't seem so tragic now, had she survived it. It may have been looked back on more as "par for the course." I always liked her music and still have that album.
To go back for a moment to "I can't keep track of each fallen robin". I have just been trying to do a search for a quote that I think this reminds me of, but can't remember enough of it to track it down. It's something along the lines of 'god is too busy to mark the falling of a sparrow', so I have taken the line to mean that the 'I' in the song has had too many women to be able to remember, or care, for them all. I'm sorry this is so vague - can anyone help me out here?
Leonard sometimes sings the last line as "that's all, I don't think of you - that often". The hesitation before the last two words gives them the lie, and suggests that he does think of her more often than he is prepared to admit, so the overall effect of the song is ambivalent. I quite like that approach.
Leonard sometimes sings the last line as "that's all, I don't think of you - that often". The hesitation before the last two words gives them the lie, and suggests that he does think of her more often than he is prepared to admit, so the overall effect of the song is ambivalent. I quite like that approach.
Linda
1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena
1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena