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Well, Beccka ~

If anyone gives you any more hints, they're liable to give it away . So, we'll be waiting to here how it goes... even if you read it alone, I'd be wondering; however, particularly so with its being read with your father. Your parents sound very open, so the likelihood of its going well is probably better than with how it would be with many other parents, who might not be so open.


~ Lizzy

(1) How old were you when you first listened to Leonard?
15, I think, maybe 16. I remember sitting on a street corner in my tiny rural home town with my friend's mom playing guitar, and she and I and her three daughters (of whom I was the oldest) - we were singing Suzanne & some other Cohen Classics. This was after the Cyrano story with the boyfriend, but not long after. This friend's mom was also friends with my art teacher/husband. Passersby were, I assume, both oblivious enough and generous enough that the change we gathered that day was enough to treat us to a pizza.

(2) How much did you understand of the sexual/violence references?
I got most of them, though maybe not on the first listen. But I've had my mind in the proverbial gutter since I was about 5.

(3) How did hearing these lyrics cause you to feel?
Like I could be good even if I was bad, like there wasn't much difference, but that it was still worth trying. I guess like a contradiction or maybe like freedom.

(4) What age do you feel would be the most age-appropriate for children to first listen to Leonard?
Conception? hehehe

(5) Should parental- or adult-guidance be a part of these initial listening experiences?
I guess that's up to the parent - how much the parent wants to explain. For me, I think I'll have control over what my child hears until I start giving her an allowance, and this music happens to be a part of our house along with Old Timey (fiddle, banjo, swing yer partner, "Tennessee Waltz" for example) & a fair amount of pop that I decide is worthy of a listen. (Though I'm pretty out of touch with the modern music scene.)

I think I'll talk to her and give her straight answers. If she asks me, "What does 'giving me head' mean?" ... hmm, not sure how to answer that for a 4 year old. But I don't know if she would care to ask yet. If she knows this lyric, I imagine she might think it's like the "Give me your foot" game. Soon enough all my sheltering will fly out the school bus window anyway, though, so why not? An accurate-yet-sensitive answer that I haven't yet formulated would, of course, be best.

So, Lizzy, this is your thread, but I don't see your answers here.

And Beccka - I've only just read it in the past year, and I read it between Marilyn Robinson & King James. You're going to love it & hate it and laugh & cry & vomit. Ah, but don't let it get to you.

Hwaahahahah!

Manna wrote: (4) What age do you feel would be the most age-appropriate for children to first listen to Leonard?
Conception? hehehe

(5) Should parental- or adult-guidance be a part of these initial listening experiences?
I guess that's up to the parent - how much the parent wants to explain. For me, I think I'll have control over what my child hears until I start giving her an allowance, and this music happens to be a part of our house along with Old Timey (fiddle, banjo, swing yer partner, "Tennessee Waltz" for example) & a fair amount of pop that I decide is worthy of a listen. (Though I'm pretty out of touch with the modern music scene.)

I think I'll talk to her and give her straight answers. If she asks me, "What does 'giving me head' mean?" ... hmm, not sure how to answer that for a 4 year old. But I don't know if she would care to ask yet. If she knows this lyric, I imagine she might think it's like the "Give me your foot" game. Soon enough all my sheltering will fly out the school bus window anyway, though, so why not? An accurate-yet-sensitive answer that I haven't yet formulated would, of course, be best.

The issues raised in this dilemma are particularly strident for me. At our last Toowoomba Cohen Birthday celebration, we had a number of folk who were there primarily to cater for us, not in the first instance being Cohen fans (and undoubtedly some still aren’t). Anyway, a couple of these folk were subsequently quite critical of us (organisers) for inappropriately exposing a couple of children (girls around 8 to 10 yrs) to LC’s lyrics (such as the “giving me head…” and “…anal sex” ones) on the Saturday live performance night. Though these children were with their parents the whole night, it was still regarded as inappropriate that we had allowed this to occur. Moreover, it was even suggested that it could be tantamount to “child abuse”! It was also intimated that we should have had an “Adult Content” warning on the night!

Anyway, though I felt this was a bit of an extreme reaction on the critics’ part, I still felt a little chided and uncertain about it all, so I decided to ascertain what damage had been done by approaching the girls’ parents. Interestingly, they were both astounded and appalled that such an “issue” had been made out of this. (As the whole performance took place amidst the hustle and bustle and noise of dining and drinking) they felt that it was highly unlikely that the girls would have even picked up on the lyrics - or at least their meaning - let alone digested and queried them! What’s more it was clear to me that even if their daughters had referred to this or manifest disturbance as a result of it, the parents would have sensitively and appropriately dealt with it.

Though I would probably not have chosen to have my child present at a Cohen night (until say of teenage years), I firmly believe it is the parents’ right to make the decision about how to manage such a situation (knowing their children’s vulnerability and being cognizant of their own and their children’s capacity to deal with any concern that might arise). Both parents in this instance were seasoned Cohen fans who were well aware of the content of Cohen’s lyrics but were unreservedly unperturbed about having their children present.

The other reflection I have on this business is that most Cohen fans are in a different “sub-culture” to the average demographic out there and part of this does involve a more relaxed and liberal attitude to such matters. We had been doing these Cohen nights annually for 13 years and had never encountered any criticism like this before, though admittedly the times children have been present at these have been few and far between.

Though we will be in a different venue with different caterers this year, I’m not sure yet what we will do in terms of an “Adult Content” warning. Part of me still finds this strategy a bit unnecessary and unpalatable and possibly even attracting certain people to attend for the wrong reason!


Cheers
Andrew (Darby)

Though we will be in a different venue with different caterers this year, I’m not sure yet what we will do in terms of an “Adult Content” warning. Part of me still finds this strategy a bit unnecessary and unpalatable and possibly even attracting certain people to attend for the wrong reason!

I agree, Andrew, that this consideration is quite superfluous to the norm and, at best, distracting. Perhaps, a panel discussion of "Beautiful Losers" might justify such a distinction, I feel it's simply over-the-top conservative to suggest it in the context of your Cohen event. Any discussion of these lyrics would likely have taken place prior to that night, anyway.


~ Lizzy

Child abuse?

You better stop that or I'll make you listen to Leonard Cohen over and over and over!!!


It's funny how the people who were complaining weren't the parents. I wonder if these same people call science the new god.

They may have a legitimate complaint; I shouldn't be so ready to roll my eyes. Different parents have different ideals they're trying to instill in their children, and I don't think these ideals are less worthy of honor than my own. Rather than "adult content" maybe something like, "Some content may be inappropriate for children" will suit the purpose.

I know what you mean about the screening filters that each parent chooses for their children, Manna. Yet, for this to be the first complaint out of 13 years of annual performances... and then to be in regard to other people's children; well, it seems to be a reflection of the nature of these people more than of the lyrics and their appropriateness. They also appear to, perhaps, feel threatened by the lyrics themselves, and to have projected their own discomfort onto the children. They must be having a very difficult time with the broadcasting of rap.

Then, as someone has already mentioned [you or Beccka], consider the fairytales we've been reading to children, or having read to us, or reading ourselves, for years.

I feel the comments each of us have made on some of the very same lyrics speaks much to the possibilities with children. At least from what was said, they appear to have oversighted altogether the love and spirituality content in Leonard's lyrics.


~ Lizzy

Yet, for this to be the first complaint out of 13 years of annual performances...

I believe Andrew stated that children were few and far between on the other occasions.

and then to be in regard to other people's children;

I think it is commendable to be concerned about the zeitgeist's effect on children other than our own.

They must be having a very difficult time with the broadcasting of rap.

Well, I hope somebody is.


YdF

Well, the performances haven't been private [I don't believe], so surely even though children didn't actually attend the gatherings with their parents, surely there were children within earshot.

It's true the adage, "It takes a community to raise a child;" yet, this incident doesn't seem to have been in that spirit.

On rap, it was an observation made without prejudice.


~ Lizzy

1. 22. I previously heard his songs sung by a friend of mine and his guitar, but nobody does Lenny like Lenny, so I was completely enraptured when I heard the originals.

2. All of them, within my own capacity of understanding (different listeners have different interpretations of certain lines, it seems).

3. Turned on (before you start blushing, I mean mentally, emotionally, spiritually... and maybe a bit of the physically after all)

4. Age has nothing to do with anything important in life (except the shortening of it!) so this really is impossible to answer. What's "appropriate" for one child may not be for another.

5. No. By all means you can play the music and see if they are interested, but it shouldn't be so formal as to sit 'em down and get the CDs out with an explanation of why they should like it.

We are fortunate that Leonard's music continues to flow through the decades and remains reasonably prominent in mainstream music knowledge. Anyone with half a brain (or ear) will find him eventually. It's up to them if they start their ascent in the Tower of Song to enjoy the view and the sound, no?

Best,

Gina

Age has nothing to do with anything important in life (except the shortening of it!)

I sure do love this quote, Gina .

. . . but it shouldn't be so formal as to sit 'em down and get the CDs out with an explanation of why they should like it.

I must say that's an image I hadn't considered when I asked that question . "Okay... that's it. You're going in timeout until you can come back here and say you like Leonard Cohen and really mean it."



~ Lizzy

John Etherington wrote:Hi Beccka,
I'm interested to know two things - your age, and how reading the book with your father works. Do you read chapters simultaneously and then discuss them?

Okie...sorry to steer the thread off course again...and I can't say people didn't warn me...but, we're 47 pages into Beautiful Losers and it's already been interesting. John, to answer your questions, I'm twenty-four, and Dad and I split the book up over however many days we have (so that's about forty pages a day for the next week.) And then we call each other and talk about it. We used to read aloud to each other, but I don't think we could manage that with this one.

To get this back on track...

lizzytysh wrote:It's true the adage, "It takes a community to raise a child;" yet, this incident doesn't seem to have been in that spirit.

On rap, it was an observation made without prejudice.

I was thinking about this today while listening to "Dress Rehearsal Rag." I haven't heard that much criticism of Cohen's music for its negative affect on children. I think Weird Al Yankovic has gotten more criticism in recent years. Maybe there's an assumption that kids won't be listening to Cohen by choice. Frankly I'd be more concerned about what kids overhear rather than what they choose to listen to.

And for that incident...it's not the responsibility of the *performers* to protect the kids. It's the responsibility of the *parents.* If the parents found the music inappropriate, they could have, well, left! Not everything in the world has to be, or should be, "child safe," especially when that protection means adults can't enjoy anything that isn't rated G.

And for that incident...it's not the responsibility of the *performers* to protect the kids. It's the responsibility of the *parents.* If the parents found the music inappropriate, they could have, well, left!

... and not only that, Beccka ~ it wasn't even the parents who levied the complaint. The complaint was made by someone[s] who didn't even know the parents or the children! It was done by strangers to both... well, probably a stranger to Leonard's music, as well.

I can understand how recitations of segments of this book may be bypassed in your exercise with your Dad. I had somehow pictured your discussions taking place in person. This is such a wonderful idea for something to do with a parent. Are you ready, yet, to share any of your or your Dad's impressions of Leonard's writing in the book, yet?

Thanks for giving us your age. I knew you were adult, as you were correcting papers of your students. I wouldn't have felt comfortable reading aloud to my Dad some of the material from this book, either.


~ Lizzy

Beccka wrote:I'm twenty-four, and Dad and I split the book up over however many days we have (so that's about forty pages a day for the next week.) And then we call each other and talk about it.

You're very fortunate, Beccka - my dad has never read a book in his life! If I hadn't inherited some of his traits I would be left to presume that there's a well-read, music loving milkman somewhere....

Although I have a very good relationship with my dad I envy you in that you get to discuss and read literature that way with him (I'm close to your age - 26). That said, my late mum wasn't much of a reader either...

- A Black Sheep

... and here I thought the milkman joke was unique to the U.S. So, you folks had home delivery at one time, too?


~ Lizzy

(1) How old were you when you first listened to Leonard?
I was 13 from what I best remember (could be 12), my brother showed it to me. He himself only liked LC for a very short amount of time.

(2) How much did you understand of the sexual/violence references?
At that time I listend to a very simple song "There Ain't no Cure for Love", I have not heard it for a while actually... but from what I remember, I understood quite a lot of it... maybe when I get my hands on "I'm Your Man" and listen to it for a couple days straight... I will get a little better sence for it

(3) How did hearing these lyrics cause you to feel?
Well, honestly, back then, I was sort of trying out diffrent kinds of music (and yes, I did listen to metal, only, for about 8 months after that). So the music did not appeal to me in particular, it was only when I came back to listen to him again did I really understand the *meaning* of the lyrics rather then the words in them.

(4) What age do you feel would be the most age-appropriate for children to first listen to Leonard?
Well honestly, it depends on the song, quite a bit I would say. However, there are at least a dozen, most likely even two, that I would easily be able to rate as "G" and appropriet for all Children to listen to and understand, for themselves as to what they believe he is trying to say, which I personally find important when listening to Leonard's music. Though to actually understand the lyrics and to what he is telling us, I would imagine you would need to be somewhere in your teens, however, I do not know yet, because I am still learning new sides to a lot of his songs I am listening to!

(5) Should parental- or adult-guidance be a part of these initial listening experiences?
Well my parents are from a diffrent country, and I was born there as well... and maybe they don't *care* to understand the lyrics because they have already settled on so many other groups and artists that they grew up with... and when I showed them Leonard Cohen's music, they have mixed opinions... my mother believe that it is amazing how early I am finding music such as this... while my father kind of makes fun of me on it... often calling the music depressing, which I asside from a couple song which I actually BEGAN to listen to when I first restarted listening to Leonard Cohen, it is not.

More to the actual question , I don't think that it should be a part of it... if the listner does not undertand the lyrics, they most likely do not need to, yet