Well I am going to have to disagree with you both there. Kerouac had spirit, he infused eastern mythology with western mindset well before it was popular to do so. He was also one of the first to create a stream of consciousness, a "catch phrase" now in modern art, by writing dharma bums in one sitting. To call this man boring is to have a seriously narrow minded view of modern culture; and I thought that was my job.
Try his experiment of running down a mountain, it is living; one could even say Kerouac is responsible for inventing extreme sports! Anyway what was the topic?
Leonard's voice and tour
Term "stream of consciousness" (as narrative technique which brings interior monologue of the character) was used well before Kerouac, that technique started with Dostoevsky and Tolstoy in Anna Karenina, and still is mainly connected with novels by James Joyce (famous Molly Bloom monologue) and Virginia Woolf and Faulkner! It was also famously used in Catcher in the Rye, which was 6 years before On the Road. Also, at least in narratology, it is not catch phrase for decades now, actually it is very outdated and replaced with stuff like "interior monologue" and "relationated monologue".
As for bringing Eastern thought into Western writing, I'd say it was pretty superficial and help-yourself-Zen, and nevertheless, it was also already done - much deeper - by Herman Hesse. If Hesse was discovered in the US ny hippies in 60s, that doesnt' mean that he wasn't read in Europe much before that, when those novels were originally published in 1920s and 1930s.
There's also the saying that Kerouac didn't write his novels, but his typewriter did, and also that he types faster than he writes novels. His energy was great, and he has many good moments, but that literature (I read On the Road /very boring/ and Tristessa, as well some poetry) is important in contect of US sociological context and - to me - in performative way, because it moved poets from academy to streets. I am anyhow more inclined and artisticaly and culturally closer to writers like Proust, Robert Musil, or Marguerite Duras.
In any case, Kerouac is good reading, when I compare him to the most overappreciated US writer ever: Charles Bukowski.
As for bringing Eastern thought into Western writing, I'd say it was pretty superficial and help-yourself-Zen, and nevertheless, it was also already done - much deeper - by Herman Hesse. If Hesse was discovered in the US ny hippies in 60s, that doesnt' mean that he wasn't read in Europe much before that, when those novels were originally published in 1920s and 1930s.
There's also the saying that Kerouac didn't write his novels, but his typewriter did, and also that he types faster than he writes novels. His energy was great, and he has many good moments, but that literature (I read On the Road /very boring/ and Tristessa, as well some poetry) is important in contect of US sociological context and - to me - in performative way, because it moved poets from academy to streets. I am anyhow more inclined and artisticaly and culturally closer to writers like Proust, Robert Musil, or Marguerite Duras.
In any case, Kerouac is good reading, when I compare him to the most overappreciated US writer ever: Charles Bukowski.
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
I’d take your word for it, James, but it looks like Tom disagrees. As I said, my knowledge of this literature is rather superficial. Sorry if I’ve tarnished one of your idols.
The topic was LC’s touring, but according to Jarkko it is a non-topic for the time being, and he should know. So let’s look for a new one, or go back to our old.
The topic was LC’s touring, but according to Jarkko it is a non-topic for the time being, and he should know. So let’s look for a new one, or go back to our old.
I know, because Catcher in the Rye was main model for Eastern European "jeans novels" in 60s, which also used Russian technique of "skaz". I myself would never mention salinger as the representatiove of strem of cosciousness, but Faulkner and VW and Joyce, but it's mentioned all over the place, from Croatian literary lexicon to Wikipedia. My opinion is that, if Joyce, Faulkner and Woolf used in between WW1 and WW2, you can't say that its representatives are Salinger and Kerouac, who used it in 50s. The progress of literature until that time already went to Borges and Beckett's novels, and Beatniks bringing poetry to jamm sessions. So Salinger and Kerouac are represneted in literary history books and in (at least here) school programs as representatives of new models and generations of literature (Beatniks, jeans prose), while stream of consciousness is already their heritage from the previous generation of modernists (Joyce, Woolf, Faulkner). There's almost 25 years between them.
As for stream of consciousness, Jocye-Woolf-Faulkner trio is always reffered to as main names; also on Wikipedia, "Stream of consciousness, an attempt to portray all the thoughts and feelings of a character, as in parts of James Joyce, William Faulkner, and Virginia Woolf." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_technique). Article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_of_consciousness says "Stream of consciousness writing gained rapid prominence in the twentieth century, particularly through the writings of Virginia Woolf, James Joyce, and William Faulkner", and mentiones both Salinger's Catcher in the Rye and Kerouac's On the Road as notable examples of the technique.
Benji's monologue in first chapter of Sound and the Fury is best example, as are Molly Bloom in last part of Ulysses and Virginia Woolf's Mrs Dalloway.
As for stream of consciousness, Jocye-Woolf-Faulkner trio is always reffered to as main names; also on Wikipedia, "Stream of consciousness, an attempt to portray all the thoughts and feelings of a character, as in parts of James Joyce, William Faulkner, and Virginia Woolf." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_technique). Article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_of_consciousness says "Stream of consciousness writing gained rapid prominence in the twentieth century, particularly through the writings of Virginia Woolf, James Joyce, and William Faulkner", and mentiones both Salinger's Catcher in the Rye and Kerouac's On the Road as notable examples of the technique.
Benji's monologue in first chapter of Sound and the Fury is best example, as are Molly Bloom in last part of Ulysses and Virginia Woolf's Mrs Dalloway.
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)
Tom,
You are absolutely right about the early masters of the stream of consciousness; I don’t think anyone would dispute that. The genre had its origin in the 19th century already; the term was coined by the American psychologist William James, and the beginning of its use in literature can already be found in the work of his brother Henry. And by the way, it appears also in early modern Hebrew literature, which was influenced by European trends. But I’m really surprised to hear that some people include Salinger in this category, because his genre is absolutely different. We don’t hear what goes on in Holden Caulfield’s mind, but he is actually speaking to us directly. Whoever wrote this article in Wikipedia did a poor job, as sometimes happens there, unfortunately; it became a great tool, but one must use it with caution.
You are absolutely right about the early masters of the stream of consciousness; I don’t think anyone would dispute that. The genre had its origin in the 19th century already; the term was coined by the American psychologist William James, and the beginning of its use in literature can already be found in the work of his brother Henry. And by the way, it appears also in early modern Hebrew literature, which was influenced by European trends. But I’m really surprised to hear that some people include Salinger in this category, because his genre is absolutely different. We don’t hear what goes on in Holden Caulfield’s mind, but he is actually speaking to us directly. Whoever wrote this article in Wikipedia did a poor job, as sometimes happens there, unfortunately; it became a great tool, but one must use it with caution.
It seems as if there is some confusion between two literary devices: "stream of consciousness" - in which the writer depicts the lead character or protagonist's interior thoughts, feelings and perceptions - often without any specific punctuation assistance - in an attempt to mimic how the mind works
and
"First person narration" - in which the writer depicts the protagonist speaking (or addressing) the reader/audience, directly as if he/she were telling the reader a story or alternatively engaged in a conversation or (sometimes) a monologue.
-Just an observation from an old English major...
and
"First person narration" - in which the writer depicts the protagonist speaking (or addressing) the reader/audience, directly as if he/she were telling the reader a story or alternatively engaged in a conversation or (sometimes) a monologue.
-Just an observation from an old English major...
Jazz
One should not have false idols and I am quite glad to be reminded of this, thank you Tom for your expose it was very informative and put me in my place, I apologise for being outspoken; I have read Narcissus and Goldbloom and was truly moved, I guess I felt a relation to Kerouac for his post war innocence and lack of pretension indeed his desperation, similar to an appreciation of Burkowski - I've not even really read his work – furthermore on a personal level I think it reflects my desperate need to find some relativism to American culture. I can better appreciate in the light of day the more hedonistic critique of Kerouac’s work, but I’ve always and to my detriment felt an empathy first for these personalities.
I am sure you can appreciate my sentiments DB and Tom in this regard, heart felt relations where one can appreciate the humanity of intention. Leonard Cohen is exemplary in this ideal, indeed Cohen could be said to be taking the next step forward reflecting both desperation and humanity in a very brave public stance. That is my interpretation of his career, and I can’t help but think that his return to better understand his ancestral heritage in his retiring years (is he really 72?) is a much more moving and sensible life path.
Again Tom, thank you for your measured and thoughtful time in response to my youthful enthusiasm.
I am sure you can appreciate my sentiments DB and Tom in this regard, heart felt relations where one can appreciate the humanity of intention. Leonard Cohen is exemplary in this ideal, indeed Cohen could be said to be taking the next step forward reflecting both desperation and humanity in a very brave public stance. That is my interpretation of his career, and I can’t help but think that his return to better understand his ancestral heritage in his retiring years (is he really 72?) is a much more moving and sensible life path.
Again Tom, thank you for your measured and thoughtful time in response to my youthful enthusiasm.
Jazz,
Your observation is clear and accurate. However, the term “skaz” I referred to above relates to a sub-genre of the “First Person Narration”; this specific kind of narration sounds like spoken rather then written style, and it also sound spontaneous rather than a calculated account. David Copperfield, for example, would be traditional first person narration, while Huckleberry Finn, Catcher in the Rye and their many descendents would be skaz novels.
Your observation is clear and accurate. However, the term “skaz” I referred to above relates to a sub-genre of the “First Person Narration”; this specific kind of narration sounds like spoken rather then written style, and it also sound spontaneous rather than a calculated account. David Copperfield, for example, would be traditional first person narration, while Huckleberry Finn, Catcher in the Rye and their many descendents would be skaz novels.
Indeed, I agree on Salinger, I checked later and as much Wikipedia mentions Salinger as "stream of consciousness", all other sources are not, any my friend from EngLit was surpised to hear so. As for my own reading experience, I am happy that I wrote above that "I myself would not enlist Salinger as the representative" of that technique. So I agree with you, DB, that i's long tradition, and aI think that jazz4111's explanation about confusion between two techniques is reliable. Beside that, I often see that many critics simply use "stream of consiousness" term when they see nay novel written without the punctuation.
I also checked, it was Truman Capote who said "It's not writing, it's typing" for Kerouac;-)
Hey JiminyC, no need for excuse, I just hope that I wasn't to heavy on you... As I said, my problem is that I think as you, and I am simply dissapointed when I read Kerouac and not getting as I supposed, because the starting point was very good. I do not say that Hesse is also very good, some novels were simple to simple... And I stopped my reading of Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" on p250
So I go back to people like Marguerite Duras. Although, when I think now about Pirsig, I recall good feelings (mountains, riding, camps, Phaedrus's exposes). Maybe I should finish it:-) Also, new Croatian edition of The Glass Bead Game is on my desktop; I read Siddharta, Demian (bad) Rosshalde (great), and Steppenwolf (2nd time for college!). But it was 5 years ago, when Croats went into its periodical craziness about Hesse (what happens every ten years or so), so maybe it's time for another attempt, but with his best novel as they said. (And I do hope for another Hesse period, because after that Paolo Coelho came in to the secen, and it seems that level of literature sunk deep... Before when people read spiritual literature, it was at least good written - Hesse, Richard Bach...)
Anyhow, I like such topics and such books, so if anybody is willing to join, we can discusss it.
Indeed, happy New Year, and many good books. I started my year with amazing, amazing writer I din't read before - Dino Buzzati and his 1940s novel "The Tartar Steppe". Masterpiece.
Also, I do inform you that this thread is now #1 in Goole if you write "skaz novels" as topic words;-)
I also checked, it was Truman Capote who said "It's not writing, it's typing" for Kerouac;-)
Hey JiminyC, no need for excuse, I just hope that I wasn't to heavy on you... As I said, my problem is that I think as you, and I am simply dissapointed when I read Kerouac and not getting as I supposed, because the starting point was very good. I do not say that Hesse is also very good, some novels were simple to simple... And I stopped my reading of Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" on p250
So I go back to people like Marguerite Duras. Although, when I think now about Pirsig, I recall good feelings (mountains, riding, camps, Phaedrus's exposes). Maybe I should finish it:-) Also, new Croatian edition of The Glass Bead Game is on my desktop; I read Siddharta, Demian (bad) Rosshalde (great), and Steppenwolf (2nd time for college!). But it was 5 years ago, when Croats went into its periodical craziness about Hesse (what happens every ten years or so), so maybe it's time for another attempt, but with his best novel as they said. (And I do hope for another Hesse period, because after that Paolo Coelho came in to the secen, and it seems that level of literature sunk deep... Before when people read spiritual literature, it was at least good written - Hesse, Richard Bach...)Anyhow, I like such topics and such books, so if anybody is willing to join, we can discusss it.
Indeed, happy New Year, and many good books. I started my year with amazing, amazing writer I din't read before - Dino Buzzati and his 1940s novel "The Tartar Steppe". Masterpiece.
Also, I do inform you that this thread is now #1 in Goole if you write "skaz novels" as topic words;-)
Leonard Cohen Newswire / bookoflonging.com (retired) / leonardcohencroatia.com (retired)