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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:55 pm
by lizzytysh
Sorry that those two errors didn't strike me

. At least I managed to pass over
some things

. Normally, I'm a detail person, too. I was more concerned with the world's knowing that Leonard is productive as ever
and Happy At Last

! Having just visited various remains of two of the camps, as well as various forms of tributes to those who died in the Holocaust, the comment on "If It Be Your Will" was of immediate interest, as well.
~ Lizzy
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:42 am
by Cynthia
TO A'AF IN JAKARTA - terimakasih, saya mengerti sekarang. Saya bukan di Jakarta. Saya di Australia, tapi di masa depan saya akan kembali ke Indonesia, dan akan ke Jakarta karena ada teman-teman disana.
To the others, I have thanked A'af in Jakarta for clarifying his meaning. I said, that I'm in Australia not Jakarta, but in the future I will be going there. He was referring to LC's problem in the past with his manager's 'bad management' of funds. Believe it or not I don't know the full story about this. Can someone please tell. If it was in the Jakarta Post, it's obviously not a secret!
TO HYDRIOT: In "If it be your will" (a gorgeous creation) it was the last verse, that caused me to consider it a companion piece to "Dance me to the end of love" - and on the same subject.
'And draw us near, and bind us tight, all your children here, in their rags of light; in our rags of light, all dressed to kill; and end this night, if it be your will." I can certainly be taken as an image of God's chosen people gathered in their prison camp rags, in those last minutes of life. For me, it all seemed to fit!
The beauty of Leonard's words is that they come to each of us SO personally, and we can sometimes explore them and take them in the way they seem to most powerfully touch us... don't you think?
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:03 am
by Cynthia
TO DICK - No I'm not offended, and you're quite right.
The Hallelujah error was stupid, because I know quite well those lyrics are from ANTHEM. When I first read it published in the on-line version of the article, I noticed it straight away, and actually I thought it had come about as a result of some of the editing done in the office there. BUT to my horror, I have just checked and seen it was me who made that error. Sometimes, although you check read a lot, you still don't see the glaring error !
Sorry everyone. But at least we got the main message out there, "There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in." There was a crack in me, when I got that wrong.!! But seriously, I can see why Leonard has stated that it comes close to being "his credo" . It is a simple sounding statement, which contains SO much depth of wisdom and truth. I love it.
The other error - well I guess I was jumping to conclusions since "Villanelle for our Time" follows "On that Day"....on the CD. That certainly caused me to think that it was a 'new beginning' sort of thing, especially written after a great tragedy, and rethinking of a lot of things. " From bitter searching of the heart....... men shall know commonwealth again... we rise to play a greater part." These sentiments and everything else there, fits the situation, and no doubt that's why it is placed there.
I think many of you people out there know more than me about the history of Leonard, and the details about the individual songs. I just know what I have felt and thought over a lifetime of listening to LC, and what I have read in books and this great website. (Thanks Jarkko).
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:29 am
by Cynthia
to LIZZY I think you could write that book. I'd buy it ! Lots of people would. Someone like Leonard is such a unique talent, and there is room for another book, another discussion and interpretation of his body of work.
TO ALL
Leonard writes the most amazing words, doesn't he?
One of my special favourite tracks is "Morning Glory". For it's musical arrangement, and also because it so perfectly describes those rare moments of being at one with the universe, when time stands still, everything seems to be shimmering, ("Transcendental moment") and then, he mutters to himself "Do you think you can pull it off?" So typical of us insecure human beings, when we are at last experiencing a moment of perfection, we start to think, and fall out of it again. The 'attachment' grabs us back to so-called "reality".... otherwise known as Suffering, in Buddhism isn't it? Or some call it the Separation. In Morning Glory, he seems to me to be talking about a moment of Wholeness or Holiness, when all is one... which are usually experienced in Nature, I have found on the rare occasions when I have had such a moment.
I too am very happy that LC has now found peace - and that song seems to show it.... an easier relationship with himself and the world. However, while he suffered at times, he gave us incredible gifts, sharing the highs and lows and his thoughts as he went deeply into life over so many years. There is a cliche about the suffering artist - But it's not really a cliche, it's a fact. Many artists seem to experience life to a greater extent - higher and lower and wider. I think it goes with the territory. Part of the Gift. I don't think any one of them would want to change it, because it's who they are - it's the source of their genius quite often. It's the driving force to create.
How about some others share some special favourite part of the LC work with us, and why it's special to you?
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:35 am
by tomsakic
Vilanelle for Our Time is deliberately placed after On That Day, on Leonard's insisting. Although it was recorded in May 1999, the place of the track on the album makes it to be heard as direct answer to previous song and the political-utopian programme. I think that there were few references to these two songs as the accompaniment one to another, some of them I think even suggested from Leonard of on this Forum (the opinions that Vilanelle is very heart, central piece of Dear Heather album), so the idea about two 9/11 songs isn't out of place. Surely, whenever the song was crafted, it speaks to our times, as does The Faith (minarets and mosses don't came incidentally into the scope after 9/11). So maybe there are even three 9/11 songs there.
Old Ideas have some ideas about that:
http://www.leonardcohencroatia.com/onthatday.php
http://www.leonardcohencroatia.com/villanelle.php
Contributed by Joe Way:
I want to start with my observation that »On That Day« and »Villanelle For Our Times« are intentionally connected in many ways and it is difficult to speak of one without comparing it to the other. Located as they are at the heart of the album, (in vinyl days-one would have completed the A side and the other would have begun the B side), they stand together inviting comparison. One senses that, at least, since Various Positions there has been a conscious effort on Leonard's part to have some type of overall structure to his albums, and I think the centrality of the placement of these songs was a studied choice.
While »On That Day« is one of the briefest songs that Leonard ever recorded, with a simple accompaniment of organ-like synth and earthy Jew's harp, the hymnlike arrangement is distinctive and captivating. When I heard it in New York at 2004 Event, it was the most memorable song for me that evening upon first hearing it.
Filled with impersonal pronouns – »some people,« »they,« – the protagonists are never identified, but it is clear that there are two sides-us and them. The causes of the conflict are put forth for speculation – »sins against G-d«, «crimes in the world«, »women unveiled, our slaves and our gold.« The narrator refuses to take a stand on this with the derisive »I wouldn't know.« Even the way that Leonard sings this line with an audible disgust, it is clear that looking back for causes does not interest the narrator. It is not until the narrator asks us, the listener, about our reaction and defines it with only two choices-»did you go crazy or did you report?« that we get a sense of what does interest the narrator. It is interesting that he inserts the line, »I won't take you to court« as it harks back to some of the legal imagery that he has used so effectively in songs like »A Singer Must Die«, »The Traitor« and »The Law«. It also suggests the Biblical judgment day and provides an introduction to the connection of Frank Scott, poet and law professor.
Leonard may have been a student of Scott's when he briefly attended Law School at McGill. It is more likely that he was familiar with Scott from the Montreal poetry circles in which they both traveled. Scott, who lost a brother in World War I, argued prior to World War II for the right of Canada to remain neutral in what he then viewed as a »European conflict.« In a rather sarcastic poem, he writes:
The British troops at the Dardanelles
Were blown to bits by British shells
Sold to the Turks by Vickers.
And many a brave Canadian youth
Will shed his blood on foreign shores,
And die for Democracy, Freedom, Truth,
With his body full of Canadian ores,
Canadian nickel, lead and scrap,
Sold to the German, sold to the Jap,
With Capital watching the tickers.
By 1942, Scott had changed his mind and recognized the conflict and, indeed, helped to draft his political party's (CCF) suppport for the democratic war effort. This quote from Sandra Djwa in her excellent article on Scott helps illuminate the changing psychological landscape that Scott traversed:
»It was also during the early war years when Scott was studying at Harvard on a Guggenheim fellowship that his interest in a more inward poetry was revived. The Canadian scholar and critic, E.K. Brown, invited to be a guest editor of Poetry (Chicago), asked Scott to submit some poetry. The two poems which Scott sent, 'Cornice' and 'Armageddon' reveal a developing awareness of the complexity of human psychology:
This foe we fight is half our own self.
He aims our gunsight as we shoot him down.
The social concerns of the 'thirties, the debacle of the Spanish Civil War and the new psychology of the 'forties had deepened Scott's poetry.«
By the early 1970's, Scott had further developed his constitutional philosophy enough to embrace the War Powers Act during the FLQ crisis in Quebec saying that (the Act) »gave back to me my civil liberties which were being steadily eroded by the F.L.Q. terrorists.«
In an interview he gave in 1971, Scott quoted his former Dean at McGill, Percy Corbett for this definition of law: »Law is that set of institutions which most subject men's passions to their reason.« He also said that law is »crytallized politics« and shares with poetry a concern for the spirit of man. In that same interview, Scott says:
»You see I believe (to use a phrase I borrowed from the historian Berkhardt) 'the state can be a work of art'. In other words man's creativity can come out in his politics and be expressed in his constitution. In fact that's what happens all the time. You can create a constitution which will make one kind of a country like Fascist Spain, or a constitution which will make another kind of a country like Communist Russia, or you can make one as the Americans did when they started, with a very great contribution towards the notion of a form of participatory democracy.«
I think that this begins to shed some light on his line from »Villanelle For Our Time« –»Men shall know Commonwealth again.«
These two works, »On That Day« and »Villanelle For Our Time« placed together by Leonard offer two distinct and at times opposing viewpoints. The imagery is in sharp contrast with one another:
»On That Day« / »Villanelle For Our Time«
»I wouldn't know« / »From bitter searching of the the heart«
»Wounded New York» / »Whose symbols are the millions slain«
»I'm just holding the fort« / »We rise to play a greater part«
»sins against g-d, crimes in the world« / »Reshaping narror law and art«
»our slaves and our gold« / »neither race nor creed remain«
»Some people say« / »This is the faith from which we start«
It would seem that »On That Day« would be the visceral reaction while »Villanelle For Our Time« would be the more cerebral and considered despite its invocation of the searching of the heart. Regardless of our reaction to them, these two works inform our response to most of the album. »Did you go crazy or did you report« seems to echo the pyschological struggle that Scott refers to in his poem, »This foe we fight is half our own self.« Coming to terms, both physically and pyschologically to a changed world is indeed a testament to the enduring spirit of a man turning 70. One harks back to his line, »I haven't been this happy since the end of World War II.« To face this bitter conflict again is no one's desire and I'm quite confident that Leonard shares this sentiment.
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:40 am
by tomsakic
Cynthia wrote:... referring to LC's problem in the past with his manager's 'bad management' of funds. Believe it or not I don't know the full story about this. Can someone please tell. If it was in the Jakarta Post, it's obviously not a secret!
It's all still on Maclean's site:
http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/finan ... 877_110877
Leonard made it to cover stories in August 2005.
And how it all finished (Globe and Mail news from court, April 2006):
viewtopic.php?t=5476
And this is how LC got his stolen properties back:
viewtopic.php?t=4800
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:38 am
by Cynthia
Thankyou very much Tom, for the interesting information, about the pair of songs/poems from Dear Heather.
Also, for the link to McLeans Magazine - Two very interesting stories there (in full) and one other now incomplete.
About the money and the messy legal stuff, and the broken friendships, these are my thoughts on the matter: What a tragic thing - to have happened. Well, on first glance from the "Boogie Street" world, it seems that way. However, there's another side to it. It seems to be a repeating story in the lives of people seriously on a spiritual path, that there comes a time when the foundations of the old life are shaken or destroyed completely and the person is faced with major challenges which may destroy them, or if they're up to it, will make them stronger and more spiritually free. It's severe 'testing' and it clears the way somehow, for as yet unknown things to come in.
In one of Rumi's poems, it's referred to as "tearing down your house" - the whole ego/attachment construction with which we desperately identify, and call it "I".
From those articles, it sounds as if Leonard's spiritual work over the years is standing him in very good stead, as he goes through this nightmare thing. Because we live in this Boogie Street kind of world, where we need to 'live our life as if its real', we need our money and some 'things'. It's required of us, or they call us names like failure, bum, vagrant, hippy, drop out were the old ones... you know the drill !
Leonard has sung about it so perceptively, and now he's got to live it some more, probably just when he thought all the 'examinations' were over! Life ! What a thing it is.
He said, "There's no-one who has told us yet, what Boogie Street is for", but I think it must be that we are offered a chance to learn and grow while we're here. It's up to us if we take it or leave it - the chance. He was compelled to take it, go on the journey, whatever it held. And he shared it with us all, in beautiful words and music, so I wish him the best possible outcome, with the least amount of pain and negativity in the process - and a strong calm centre from which to face it all. I get the feeling he has that. He's done so much 'work' - which is what Gurdjieff called spiritual growth.
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:13 pm
by lizzytysh
Hi Cynthia ~
Yes ~ I agree, too, on the images of his children gathered on the eves of their deaths... in their rags of light, some praying for an end to their suffering and others praying that He told them tight to bring them through it. Even that eerie sense of lighting resides in the photographs of those people during that time. I should have gone further with my own 'explanation' of his lyrics in that song.
I love your seamless integration of Rumi's poetry into your worldly/spiritual thoughts. It doesn't mean I let Kelley off the hook when I say that it's taken awhile, but I can support this having been a huge spiritual test and lesson. Yet, Leonard's attitude and countenance throughout it seem to underscore his far deeper understanding of how these unfathomable things can be fathomed.
Having read your last and several previous postings, Cynthia, it's been decided that you are the one to write this book

... and if you would please reserve me a signed copy, I would really appreciate it

. Thanks. If you need a proofreader, I'm available

.
~ Lizzy
Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:58 pm
by dick
Thanks all for reminding me of the earlier info about the links between on that day and villanelle ---
I just recalled that villanelle existed before
Many good points in this thread.
dick
Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:22 pm
by hydriot
Hi Lizzy,
Sorry if I touched a raw nerve about the death camps. To add some balance, let me say I have the highest regard for the Warsaw Uprising, and I'd like to hope that's how we would have fought had Britain been overrun.
So it will now come as no surprise to you that one of my early favourite songs sung by LC is The Partisan. I couldn't believe it when I learned that it was not written by him.
the Partisan
Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:30 am
by sulis
Listening to the Partisan, I used to think that Leonard was singing as though he were in a past incarnation, then when I heard him speak about Federico Garcia Lorca, wondered if there was a Spanish civil war thing about this song. It is still a mystery, but I never understand what songs are supposed to be about. The singing in French and about war implies twentieth century France/Spain (which border?). Not sure. Same feel I get when listening to Echo and the Bunnymen with all the Neptune/God of the Sea imagery and that they were inspired by the city of Liverpool which was a long standing seafaring port - as well as Leonard Cohen - and get this feeling their songs are written from the point of view of somebody drowning at sea.....
Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:50 am
by lizzytysh
Hi Hydriot ~
Thanks. When I hear comments like that, it always feels so much like the "Blaming the Victim" phenomena. I'm not expressing this next part the way it should be, but there's something about so much of our consciousness and fear relates to our awareness of and fear of our mortality... so things said are an effort [albeit verbally] to stave off the inevitable. If I find out the correct way to express all this, I'll return here and say it right!
Anyway, if we can at least, even if only for a moment, believe/feel that we would have done things differently, then we can distance ourselves emotionally from the fear that something so inconceivably horrific could
ever possibly happen to us. "If they had... (and they could have... ) and if it were me, I would have... " helps someone believe that something so incomprehensible could never happen to them... so they can feel in control and be distanced from their own mortality for at least one more moment of thought.
The two situations are so radically different. The ones left behind in Britain knew that they were being invaded and that the intent of the invaders was to destroy them. They knew to hide and to be prepared to fight for their survival or at least to do a 1:1 ratio of death, if at all possible. That mindset alone, going in, is a huge difference.
Your comment regarding the Warsaw Uprising led me to Google it for more details. I found some very interesting ones. Of course, you already know that, here again, they had the advantage of having gotten the jist of what was going on in the camps and knowing that resisting this fate of doom was their only chance. Still on the outside and with the advantage of still being able to arm themselves, organizing, hiding, et al empowered them in a way that was impossible for those helpless one already in the camps, being led to their deaths to the strains of the burning violins. Just different scenarios altogether. The Warsaw uprisers also had the benefit of knowledge of the camps and what was happening, that those who were herded into trains had no idea of... the health and attitude of robust youth will also always be on the side of success in an uprising.
When you see the piles of suitcases behind glass [didn't you go to the camps when you were in Krakow years ago? I'm guessing now that maybe you didn't] that are marked with names, dates, and other identifying information, it's clear that these people were marking their property for later retrieval, believing this situation to be only temporary.
You're right, it really is still raw. In the midst of it, it's surreal; yet, it registers on a different level. I heard a segment on public radio the other morning where a woman and her brother were separated during the Holocaust when she was 6 and he was 16. She and her older sister fled to another country and their belief was that their entire family had died. She rather recently moved to Israel and a grandchild ended up checking I think the Internet, but somehow got linked to either a place or a site where survivors of the Holocaust wrote their testimonies about it. Through this, a one-page testimony of her brother was found... and more research ensued. He and another brother had somehow survived and are now living in Canada. Connections were made and she has met with him. She barely speaks English, but they still managed to communicate, and he could still see that little six-year-old girl in her face. He recognized her. They'd had a very special relationship at the time, playing catch with a ball and other things. He wants her to move to Canada, but she says she will visit him there, but she won't move because Israel is now her home. As I listened to the segment, I started to weep because it conjured up so many images of what I'd seen and learned about, where he had been, what he had experienced, how the rest of their family had died, what she had been spared, and on and on.
Anyway, here's the info about the Uprising. I've
Bolded what in the two situations was so markedly different, as well as what in the two situations was so tragically the same:
Many Jews in ghettos across eastern Europe tried to organize resistance against the Germans and to arm themselves with smuggled and homemade weapons. Between 1941 and 1943, underground resistance movements formed in about 100 Jewish groups. The most famous attempt by Jews to resist the Germans in armed fighting occurred in the Warsaw ghetto.
In the summer of 1942, about 300,000 Jews were deported from Warsaw to Treblinka. When reports of mass murder in the killing center leaked back to the Warsaw ghetto, a surviving group of mostly young people formed an organization called the Z.O.B. (for the Polish name, Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa, which means Jewish Fighting Organization). The Z.O.B., led by 23-year-old Mordecai Anielewicz, issued a proclamation calling for the Jewish people to resist going to the railroad cars. In January 1943, Warsaw ghetto fighters fired upon German troops as they tried to round up another group of ghetto inhabitants for deportation. Fighters used a small supply of weapons that had been smuggled into the ghetto. After a few days, the troops retreated. This small victory inspired the ghetto fighters to prepare for future resistance.
On April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven hundred and fifty fighters fought the heavily armed and well-trained Germans. The ghetto fighters were able to hold out for nearly a month, but on May 16, 1943, the revolt ended. The Germans had slowly crushed the resistance. Of the more than 56,000 Jews captured, about 7,000 were shot, and the remainder were deported to killing centers or concentration camps.
Yes ~ It really could have been written by Leonard, "The Partisan." I'm not surprized that he chose to record it, as something he identifies with so strongly. It would've been wonderful if everyone would have known what was awaiting them [as apparently both the host family and the refugees in The Partisan already knew] and they could have been so blessed with the good fortune to have found loving, German [or whatever nationality] families willing to risk and sacrifice their own lives, in order to help save theirs.
On a more positive note, I certainly do love your avatar, the flag of Hydra

.
~ Lizzy
Re: the Partisan
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:02 am
by hydriot
sulis wrote:The singing in French and about war implies twentieth century France/Spain (which border?). Not sure.
The Partisan has quite a complicated history, as it went through a number of versions before LC brought it to us, but I believe it is now accepted that it was written by Marly in the early forties, a French Resistance fighter then in England.
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:18 am
by liverpoolken
Wow!
I never thought that I would see Echo and the Bunnymen mentioned in this forum.
Sulis I don't know if you live in the area but Macca and the boys have a gig in Liverpool on Friday 15th December at the Carling Academy. If by any chance you are attending the gig and need putting up for the night or wish to meet up let me know. I have good contacts with the promoters and could always get you a ticket if you already haven't got one.
For the those that don't know Echo and The Bunnymen these boys are by
far the best group that has ever emerged from the city of Liverpool, and that includes the flipping Beatles.
Despite recording a couple of LC songs I've yet to hear the boys sing any LC material live.
Then again I've never been there when Bob Dylan sang Restless Farewell live.
Most of you will have perhaps come across the mighty Ian McCulloch through the BBC documentary 'What Leonard Cohen Did For Me' when he sang a wonderful version Of Suzanne. In the very same programme another Liverpulian and neighbour of mine Kathryn Williams who after declaring her wish for carnal knowledge, in true crude Liverpool style, of Leonard then gave a very personal version of Hallelujah.
I have a copy of the 'What Leonard Cohen Did For Me' programme somewhere. If you want a copy let me know.
Ta Ken
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:42 am
by kieron
Hi Ken,
I thought Katryn was great in that documentary. I didn't knoiw she is a buddy of yours. Beautiful voice. Only recently did I come across my old Echo collection and popped it unto my MP3 player. I was a fair weather Echo fan, the cutter, killing moon, all the usual suspects, never getting in too deep. I do like Ian a lot when he is interviewed, he has a lovely humbleness about him, I do agree on his talent.
I'm sure you know but Christy Moore is playing liverpool in November
http://www.christymoore.com/gigs.php
He did a fantastice rendition of the ballad of hattie carroll on TV here a few weeks ago. I think it's on his latest album, ??.
See you in Dublin. Drop me a mail when you get in.
Kieron