Why do you post?
Hey Peter D.
I think you misunderstood Linda and me. (Perhaps deliberately.) We are not scared or bothered by "certain" words. It's just that the so-called "poetry" is sooooooooooooo bad. Reading the Poetry Forum is like drowning in molasses. Too much "feeling" and very little "sense." Or the subject matter doesn't rise to the level of being worth the bother...scatalogical verse I can get from my five-year-old.
Miranda
I think you misunderstood Linda and me. (Perhaps deliberately.) We are not scared or bothered by "certain" words. It's just that the so-called "poetry" is sooooooooooooo bad. Reading the Poetry Forum is like drowning in molasses. Too much "feeling" and very little "sense." Or the subject matter doesn't rise to the level of being worth the bother...scatalogical verse I can get from my five-year-old.
Miranda
Sorry, Lizzytysh,
I'm not a poet, a publisher, a professor or a professional critic. I'm only a Reader. And arrogance has nothing to do with being able to judge good poetry from bad poetry. Why shouldn't there be a standard for poetry? There is for everything else in life. Do you want a good doctor or a quack? When you go to your auto mechanic don't you want him to fix your car or is slip-shod work acceptable to you? Why should writers (especially poets) be let off the hook simply because of what they do?
I think we spend so much time reading bad poetry we don't even know what good writing is anymore.
(And I don't know what partisan has got to do with my posts.
)
Miranda
I'm not a poet, a publisher, a professor or a professional critic. I'm only a Reader. And arrogance has nothing to do with being able to judge good poetry from bad poetry. Why shouldn't there be a standard for poetry? There is for everything else in life. Do you want a good doctor or a quack? When you go to your auto mechanic don't you want him to fix your car or is slip-shod work acceptable to you? Why should writers (especially poets) be let off the hook simply because of what they do?
I think we spend so much time reading bad poetry we don't even know what good writing is anymore.
(And I don't know what partisan has got to do with my posts.
)Miranda
Miranda ~
You seem to presume your own perception to be the cornerstone of reality with what you're saying in this post, as well as the previous one. It appears you settled on the arbiter role. Have you seen the film "Waking Life"? You might find it interesting, if not good/bad. It seems to me that the world of poetry, even moreso than prose, is elusive....oftimes a matter of one's taste. Hence, favourites are chosen ~ poets/poems ~ generally different for everyone. How could that possibly be?
"Good"/"Bad" ~ such odd words it seems to me to be so arbitrarily slinging toward the subjective efforts of others. Does being published create the credential to qualify as "good," or at least "not bad"? Who would you suggest set the standard, and who shall apply it? Are you suggesting poems get cleared by a third-party prior to posting? Would you volunteer for that position, so we can rest assured we're not subjected to "bad" stuff in our reading? Or shall everyone simply self-monitor prior to posting? What about the gut-wrenching hours it took them to finally get into words what they were feeling or thinking? Or their moments of inspiration when their words just came? Do these things count for anything, or is the standard so objective and so rigid that the feelings behind the imperfect words and phrasing count for nothing? Does it matter how far on their own continuum of progress they are in their writing? Shall they simply hold their tongue until someone has deemed their poetry "good"? Shall they bring with them their own "reviews," so others can feel a degree of comfort in knowing they're not wasting their time and/or emotions on "bad" poetry?
I honestly couldn't evaluate what makes Leonard's poetry good/bad....I can tell you why I like/don't like a particular poem, however. Do you think Leonard began as a good/great poet? Or that Lorca did? Or that anyone else on the face of this earth did? Some, I do believe, are "naturals" and actually did ~ but dang few. The poetry section is for "forum members" [no credentials required other than that] ~ I'm certain there are professional-poet sites, where those deemed "good" do post. There's a saying, not totally lacking in wisdom, that "those who can't do, become critics." You've probably heard it. Do all the same rules inside your head apply to movies, music, and the other arts, as well?
It's interesting to me that at least one of your complaints relates to too much feeling. My feeling is that we live in an ever-increasingly, alienated world, where people are almost systematically encouraged less and less to connect on a real, feeling level. When a poem causes me to "feel," I couldn't care less if it's a "good" poem. It touched my heart and, for me, that's what matters.
Your suggestion of standards relating to doctors and auto mechanics also has inherent in it the issue of training. Doctors go to school and so do many mechanics. Shall all poets, would-be poets and wannabe poets sign up and "ace" Poetry 101, 102, 103? Or simply wait till they're published prior to posting?
I used "arrogance" related to Partisan due to prior postings of judgmentalism and a presumed superiority as to what constitutes good/bad/otherwise. Pompous might work, too. When you make a sweeping statement as you did, you've called into question the vast majority of those who have contributed in the poetry section. Perhaps you might consider "PM"ing those you feel do measure up to your own standards and request they notify you when they post, and that way you can be spared the aggravation and time wasted, while you also spare the feelings of the rest from your blatant slashing.
What exactly does have to do with being able to judge good poetry from bad poetry? Do you not need to know the art, the craft from the inside out to truly be able to judge? Hence, shouldn't you be a poet? If I have a building inspector come to check out my house for sturdiness, I would prefer he spent a number of years in the building trades.....and not be only a shade-tree mechanic. But then, as with doctors and many mechanics, the building inspector would be presenting himself as a professional. Guess what? The poetry section here is intended for amateurs. It would seem the nature of arbitrary standards that you apply to others, you fail to apply to your own credentials.
We don't know what "good" writing is anymore? It seems at least some of us do, or we wouldn't be coming to this site and forum. Some of the classics from novels to operas, writers and poets [the list goes on] were panned by their contemporary, professional critics, as well as by all the "only"s, yet somehow managed to survive the test of time and are hailed amongst the "great"s [not just "good"s] now. How do you suppose that could have happened?
Poetry is a very personal way of writing and there's much freedom in that. Wouldn't it be preferable if people could just respect that? Or, if you insist on judging, at least post something of your own, so we can view your opinion in its proper context. Our society manages to judge us harshly from our early years on [educational system the big one for starters]......for many, poetry is an escape from all of that. A world they can go to and just "be." What a drag to turn around and see the teacher of yore trapsing behind shaking her finger at you.
~Elizabeth
You seem to presume your own perception to be the cornerstone of reality with what you're saying in this post, as well as the previous one. It appears you settled on the arbiter role. Have you seen the film "Waking Life"? You might find it interesting, if not good/bad. It seems to me that the world of poetry, even moreso than prose, is elusive....oftimes a matter of one's taste. Hence, favourites are chosen ~ poets/poems ~ generally different for everyone. How could that possibly be?
"Good"/"Bad" ~ such odd words it seems to me to be so arbitrarily slinging toward the subjective efforts of others. Does being published create the credential to qualify as "good," or at least "not bad"? Who would you suggest set the standard, and who shall apply it? Are you suggesting poems get cleared by a third-party prior to posting? Would you volunteer for that position, so we can rest assured we're not subjected to "bad" stuff in our reading? Or shall everyone simply self-monitor prior to posting? What about the gut-wrenching hours it took them to finally get into words what they were feeling or thinking? Or their moments of inspiration when their words just came? Do these things count for anything, or is the standard so objective and so rigid that the feelings behind the imperfect words and phrasing count for nothing? Does it matter how far on their own continuum of progress they are in their writing? Shall they simply hold their tongue until someone has deemed their poetry "good"? Shall they bring with them their own "reviews," so others can feel a degree of comfort in knowing they're not wasting their time and/or emotions on "bad" poetry?
I honestly couldn't evaluate what makes Leonard's poetry good/bad....I can tell you why I like/don't like a particular poem, however. Do you think Leonard began as a good/great poet? Or that Lorca did? Or that anyone else on the face of this earth did? Some, I do believe, are "naturals" and actually did ~ but dang few. The poetry section is for "forum members" [no credentials required other than that] ~ I'm certain there are professional-poet sites, where those deemed "good" do post. There's a saying, not totally lacking in wisdom, that "those who can't do, become critics." You've probably heard it. Do all the same rules inside your head apply to movies, music, and the other arts, as well?
It's interesting to me that at least one of your complaints relates to too much feeling. My feeling is that we live in an ever-increasingly, alienated world, where people are almost systematically encouraged less and less to connect on a real, feeling level. When a poem causes me to "feel," I couldn't care less if it's a "good" poem. It touched my heart and, for me, that's what matters.
Your suggestion of standards relating to doctors and auto mechanics also has inherent in it the issue of training. Doctors go to school and so do many mechanics. Shall all poets, would-be poets and wannabe poets sign up and "ace" Poetry 101, 102, 103? Or simply wait till they're published prior to posting?
I used "arrogance" related to Partisan due to prior postings of judgmentalism and a presumed superiority as to what constitutes good/bad/otherwise. Pompous might work, too. When you make a sweeping statement as you did, you've called into question the vast majority of those who have contributed in the poetry section. Perhaps you might consider "PM"ing those you feel do measure up to your own standards and request they notify you when they post, and that way you can be spared the aggravation and time wasted, while you also spare the feelings of the rest from your blatant slashing.
What exactly does have to do with being able to judge good poetry from bad poetry? Do you not need to know the art, the craft from the inside out to truly be able to judge? Hence, shouldn't you be a poet? If I have a building inspector come to check out my house for sturdiness, I would prefer he spent a number of years in the building trades.....and not be only a shade-tree mechanic. But then, as with doctors and many mechanics, the building inspector would be presenting himself as a professional. Guess what? The poetry section here is intended for amateurs. It would seem the nature of arbitrary standards that you apply to others, you fail to apply to your own credentials.
We don't know what "good" writing is anymore? It seems at least some of us do, or we wouldn't be coming to this site and forum. Some of the classics from novels to operas, writers and poets [the list goes on] were panned by their contemporary, professional critics, as well as by all the "only"s, yet somehow managed to survive the test of time and are hailed amongst the "great"s [not just "good"s] now. How do you suppose that could have happened?
Poetry is a very personal way of writing and there's much freedom in that. Wouldn't it be preferable if people could just respect that? Or, if you insist on judging, at least post something of your own, so we can view your opinion in its proper context. Our society manages to judge us harshly from our early years on [educational system the big one for starters]......for many, poetry is an escape from all of that. A world they can go to and just "be." What a drag to turn around and see the teacher of yore trapsing behind shaking her finger at you.
~Elizabeth
-
Young dr. Freud
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am
-
Young dr. Freud
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am
Notes on the patient, L
First Session:
Displays unwarrented hostility to those with whom she is in disagreement. (Rage control therapy needed)
Some delusional qualities to her anger. Describes Leonard and Lorca as not being good poets when they first started writing. (First negative criticism of Cohen by patient -- could possibly lead to psychic break)
Resents authority figures, (i.e. teachers) and feels increasingly alienated from world. (Perhaps group therapy would be beneficial)
Refuses to take her medication.
First Session:
Displays unwarrented hostility to those with whom she is in disagreement. (Rage control therapy needed)
Some delusional qualities to her anger. Describes Leonard and Lorca as not being good poets when they first started writing. (First negative criticism of Cohen by patient -- could possibly lead to psychic break)
Resents authority figures, (i.e. teachers) and feels increasingly alienated from world. (Perhaps group therapy would be beneficial)
Refuses to take her medication.
Humourous, YDF ~
"Disagreement" not the issue....unwarranted judgement and insulting of others from a presumed position of omniscience and superiority regarding all acid tests of quality is, however. Angry to read such presumptuousness, and slicing away at real people? Yes. Dislike what you read, but you keep on reading? Don't read......
Scarey thought, however; someone assuming your position being unable to discern between questioning and describing ~ "Do you think.....poet?" Starting out as a "not good" poet is merely an acknowledgement of the "start" point of a natural continuum of growth. Like/don't like, by any particular person, has little-to-nothing to do with good/bad. No criticism of Leonard/Lorca going on here.
Educational systems do well to come under question. The emotional state of the world does as well.
Anti-medication in lieu of alternatives. That's one of the problems with the field you aspire to......give 'em a pill.
I suggest you go over your notes with your mentor. You might also consider returning to school for another endeavour. Spin-doctor would be good, with lots of jobs available in the U.S. Openings always available.
"Disagreement" not the issue....unwarranted judgement and insulting of others from a presumed position of omniscience and superiority regarding all acid tests of quality is, however. Angry to read such presumptuousness, and slicing away at real people? Yes. Dislike what you read, but you keep on reading? Don't read......
Scarey thought, however; someone assuming your position being unable to discern between questioning and describing ~ "Do you think.....poet?" Starting out as a "not good" poet is merely an acknowledgement of the "start" point of a natural continuum of growth. Like/don't like, by any particular person, has little-to-nothing to do with good/bad. No criticism of Leonard/Lorca going on here.
Educational systems do well to come under question. The emotional state of the world does as well.
Anti-medication in lieu of alternatives. That's one of the problems with the field you aspire to......give 'em a pill.
I suggest you go over your notes with your mentor. You might also consider returning to school for another endeavour. Spin-doctor would be good, with lots of jobs available in the U.S. Openings always available.