This is a very interesting topic, but time and wishing not to veer too wildly off-topic dictates that one can only respond selectively:
I thank you for your words of appreciation, Lizzy. You said:
With regard to sexual exchange, without becoming overly personal in all of this, when I read what Diane wrote so well in expressing herself in this, I felt differently regarding the oral sex in "Light as a Breeze" [whew... itfrozerighthere]... for me, it is the most intimate. Heart may not be to heart, missionary or 'missionary-reversed'... yet, it is the ultimate of a different level of trust and expression. It is not a given form of exchange. So, comparing it to a form of heaven and a blessing from above... figuratively and literally; yes, I can relate to that... man with woman, or woman with man.
I understand and agree with what you are saying here, and this crossed my mind when I was making my point. But I think the general point that some of Leonard's work "objectifies" women stands (such a loaded word, 'objectify' but if men sometimes disconnect from women during sex, maybe we could accept them for that). The theme is repeated again in the poem, Celebration. Again, he feels like a god when his woman is distant from him:
When you kneel below me
and in both your hands
hold my manhood like a sceptre,
When you wrap your tongue
about the amber jewel
and urge my blessing.
I understand those Roman girls
who danced around a shaft of stone
and kissed it till the stone was warm.
Kneel, love, a thousand feet below me,
so far I can barely see your mouth and hands
perform the ceremony,
Kneel till I topple to your back
with a groan, like those gods on the roof
that Samson pulled down.
DBCohen, thank you for your kind words regarding my input. I thank you, and all others here, for what you teach me. It is of great interest to learn more about the depth of Leonard's work.
You said:
Your point can be strengthened further by another “oral sex song”, “Coming Back To You”:
Quote:
Even in your arms I know
I’ll never get it right;
even when you bend
to give me comfort in the night.
I’ve got to have your word on this
or none of it is true,
and all I’ve said was just instead of
coming back to you.
Stephen Scobie said in his 1993 lecture on LC:
Quote:
…and his treatment of women has been a persistent embarrassment, or outright offence, to feminist critics.
I can see why (although I haven’t read that criticism), but I also think that his attitude needs to be qualified: he is rarely “Tarzan”, more often the tormented lover longing for love.
and:
Quote:
Also, clearly, men do not express emotion as readily as women.
This is a bit too general, don’t you think? Perhaps “some men” would be more accurate.
Men and women
are different in their relating. I do not mean my observation to be a criticism. The way I had it explained to me was that men and women both feel things as deeply, but men naturally, all things being equal, do not
express their feelings to the extent women do. Of course, this would apply to the average man or woman, so your statement that it applies only to "some men" is accurate. (This factor makes women value such expression in men more highly than they would if it were coming from another woman, and it is one of the many reasons we are drawn to Leonard Cohen.)
In the songs we have quoted, and others, Leonard is, as I see it, saying more than "I can't relate to you", he is being honest about an important aspect of this difference between men and women in sex and how it leaves him feeling he'll "never get it right". It seems men don't need to feel deeply connected to their woman to enjoy sex, and even that, attempting to make such a connection detracts from a man's enjoyment of sex, on some level. Women find this difficult. However, being honest about this 'problem' re-establishes the connection women are looking for, and the understanding men are due, as well as allowing women to explore their "male side" (for want of a better expression). Leonard Cohen describes how it is to be a man who has to walk the line between getting what he wants and giving a woman what she seems to want. That is
another of the many reasons, I think, women are drawn to his work.
Of course, I am not a man, and I could have it all wrong, and if so, I'm all ears
. Oops, I just read Mat's last post. Perhaps we'd better not try to penetrate the mystery too much
.
Thanks DB for pointing out a clearer meaning of that saying about camels and gazelles.
Joe, thanks for pointing to those beautiful words from Boogie Street. I hope Leonard is, as you say, finally bathing with his love. It is lovely to hear you describe how you are bathing with yours, and to hear you confrim that you (the male sex) need 'time away' from women. Women need time away from men too.
our sexual nature will always respond to the suggestion of a breast like a red flag to a bull.
We know, and we are all-the-more delighted to indulge this obsession of yours when you make efforts to indulge our 'ways'
.
Btw, Joe, as this is the first time I bump into you since your Berlin 'jamming' performance in the hotel bar, I feel compelled to tell you how much I enjoyed your performance (complete with your wife at your side, her eyes noticeably shining with pride). Thanks!
Tom,
Diane, thank you very much, it seems it all stands rightly, but does not mean, again, that our poet can be see as mysogin,
You are welcome. I had no idea my thoughts would arouse such a degree of interest.
I like that variation of Hallelujah line, from shows, "I learned to touch", "learned" instead of "tried". As woman in Death of a Ladies' Man says "I'll show you solitude" while in Death of a Lady's Man she says "I'll teach you solitude." Also, Leonard's statement about these matters was the same as in matters of politics and 9-11 etc., he's, like in Zen koan, going beyond dialectial oppositions, beyond all divisions, "neither left of right, just staying home tonight", "just holding the fort".
Yes, those words are about the necessity of men and women learning from each other, and accepting what they find, rather than reacting against it.
So much more that could be said, but work calls...
Over the last five or ten thousand years, men have been asking the question "What does a woman want?" And for the last few hundred years even women have been asking the question "What does a woman want?" And now men are asking the question "What does a man want?" And I just want to notify you that if these thoughts interest you for even a moment, you are lost. I have abandoned this type of question and I stand ready to signify my intention to do anything at all that she wants in order to deserve her caress. And therefore I declare I am your man. And Oh thank you sons and daughters of Iceland. It is a great honour for us to play before you this evening. Even at the begining of your country men were asking the question:"What does a woman want?". The only change through millenium has been that now women are asking "What does a woman want?" And now even men are asking "What does a man want?" Nobody knows what they want. If these thoughts interest you, even for a moment, You are lost. I myself am ready to surrender to the obvious.....I'm ready to do anything to deserve a woman's caress. All I want to say to the one I love is "I'm your man".
What lovely quotes from Leonard. Thanks for copying them here. I like to leave him with the last word.
Cheers,
Diane
OK, Tchoc, later.
?
~ perhaps, it's an industry standard I was ignorant of, that the speed of a cover emerging is a strong indicator of the quality of the song. But, this comment is entirely parenthetical to this thread.]
. I intend to read your link over the weekend. Have a good one 
