why is it so hard to understand suicide bombers???
there are suicides in every culture, every country, everywhere in the whole wide world.
Tri-me, you are wrong to think about 70 virgins. it's sort of anti-Muslim also, since not only Muslims are suicidal and terrorists. remember japanese kamikaze? Christian culture is also full of heroes who gave their lives for higher purpose. IRA also has a history of suicide bombers, if i remember correctly.
if you are suicidal in the first place, and have a goal you think is worth killing for - you are a perfect suicide bomber to be!
thinking about it - since there are most suicides amond well educated middle class people, it's possible that this may be the reason that bombers are from the same group of people?
Explosions in London
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Tchocolatl
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It is not hard to understand at all : they are brain washed. 
Now we have to dissect the concept of suicide.
Japanese culture has a tradition of hara kiri where the sense of honour is no less great than in Spanish culture that came from the Arabic culture when Spanish was invaded by the Arabs.
This is different than to want to stop a life of never ending sufferings, whatever they are physical or moral.
If we refer to the Maslow pyramid, we'll see that after the basic needs to keep the body alive and well, come the idealistic needs, realisation of the self and possibility to use gifts in creativity.
"Poor" (but again, what is the definition of "poor"? Let say people who have to direct a highest percentage then the average of their energy to fulfill basic needs) people are strugling for basic needs, they actually often can not afford (no time and/or money to do it) to a cause, unless a leader - specialized in the matter and paid by the group can carry the whole thing on his/her shoulders for them and show them the way.
I repeat, there is sometimes "poor" suicidal bombers.
Now the middle class people can not always fufill "the higher levels" of needs in the pyramid as the society is more prompt to use people like objects or zombies, or slaves, than to recognized them as alive original individuals, for consequences, they are like birds in a golden cages. They can even go suicidal. But usually they are doing this to end their sufferings to live in such a society. When they are doing it to fulfill an ideal and/or self-realization, they must have been "fertilized" by this idea. For example some British feminists committed suicide by trowing themselves under the paws of horses during a filmed public race show for the cause in the beginning of the sufragettes cause. Was it really necessary to die for the cause? In that way? Is this help the cause? I don't think so. For me it was a brain wash as well.
I go as far as saying that some soldiers of "ours" are brained washed also. They are going to war and they are all suprised by the horrors. Where were their brains all the time before?
For the virgins, I could not say for the exact numbers, but they are "real". In the deal at least. Another difference in culture. Heaven is a place of lust and pleasure. You see... people are not so different at the core, if they are in the superficial appearances. Wink again.
Have a nice Sunday, people!
Now we have to dissect the concept of suicide.
Japanese culture has a tradition of hara kiri where the sense of honour is no less great than in Spanish culture that came from the Arabic culture when Spanish was invaded by the Arabs.
This is different than to want to stop a life of never ending sufferings, whatever they are physical or moral.
If we refer to the Maslow pyramid, we'll see that after the basic needs to keep the body alive and well, come the idealistic needs, realisation of the self and possibility to use gifts in creativity.
"Poor" (but again, what is the definition of "poor"? Let say people who have to direct a highest percentage then the average of their energy to fulfill basic needs) people are strugling for basic needs, they actually often can not afford (no time and/or money to do it) to a cause, unless a leader - specialized in the matter and paid by the group can carry the whole thing on his/her shoulders for them and show them the way.
I repeat, there is sometimes "poor" suicidal bombers.
Now the middle class people can not always fufill "the higher levels" of needs in the pyramid as the society is more prompt to use people like objects or zombies, or slaves, than to recognized them as alive original individuals, for consequences, they are like birds in a golden cages. They can even go suicidal. But usually they are doing this to end their sufferings to live in such a society. When they are doing it to fulfill an ideal and/or self-realization, they must have been "fertilized" by this idea. For example some British feminists committed suicide by trowing themselves under the paws of horses during a filmed public race show for the cause in the beginning of the sufragettes cause. Was it really necessary to die for the cause? In that way? Is this help the cause? I don't think so. For me it was a brain wash as well.
I go as far as saying that some soldiers of "ours" are brained washed also. They are going to war and they are all suprised by the horrors. Where were their brains all the time before?
For the virgins, I could not say for the exact numbers, but they are "real". In the deal at least. Another difference in culture.
Heaven is a place of lust and pleasure. You see... people are not so different at the core, if they are in the superficial appearances. Wink again.Have a nice Sunday, people!
Jurica these are not suicidal people. These are mostly young idealistic brainwashed people who believed implicitly in the concept of the virgins and the promise of eternal paradise. These are young men and women whose families for the most part cannot understand why they did it. They take innocent people with them because it is part of the package the aim is to kill as many infidels as possible to gain a place in paradise.
I hope you do not admire them because they are not admirable they are brain washed. And the two bombers recently caputured in Paddington were heard to shout "we have rights" when they were being arrested. In my mind they don't have rights they should be given the bomb back be made to strap it on and blow themselves up there and then. They are scum brainwashed or not.
I hope you do not admire them because they are not admirable they are brain washed. And the two bombers recently caputured in Paddington were heard to shout "we have rights" when they were being arrested. In my mind they don't have rights they should be given the bomb back be made to strap it on and blow themselves up there and then. They are scum brainwashed or not.
I would never say that this was a Muslim issue. There are Muslims who are outraged by these actions. Alkida is confused with Muslim. It is never a good idea to put words in anothers mouth, careful. My great grandmother was a suffrogette so I am familiar with the horse story. Emily Davidson was not attempting suicide she wanted to disrupt the race.Tri-me, you are wrong to think about 70 virgins. it's sort of anti-Muslim also, since not only Muslims are suicidal and terrorists. remember japanese kamikaze?
I know history and suicide has long been a part of wars. Boadicea committed suicide rather than be taken by the Romans. I was thinking. What is the worse thing that could ever happen? I decided it was committing suicide. I don't know what I would do if someone was trying to kill a member of my family, friend, take over Canada, massacre Buddhists would I offer my life? My life not the lives of 100's of others there is not honour in this. I believe that our lives are a great gift.The desperate act of a woman who rushed from the rails on to the course as the horses swept round Tattenham Corner, apparently from some mad notion that she could spoil the race, will impress the general public even more, perhaps, than the disqualification of the winner.
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
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Byron
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"We have rights."
I have to agree with them. We live in a civilised society where the rule of law prevents us from falling into anarchy. We have to maintain that law for all people who live here.
These young men will undergo due process of law and probably come to trial. The police must not make any mistakes in collecting and presenting the evidence to the court of law.
In due course, these young men will probably be found guilty, unless they actually plead guilty, and then they will be sentenced to a term of imprisonment.
The fact that they were willing to become martyrs shows the depth of their beliefs. They saw themselves entering paradise and being welcomed as special souls.
To allow them to enter our prison system and spend the rest of their days trapped inside steel and concrete cells would be the worst form of result that they would want.
They will never become martyrs. They will merely exist. They will have no future. They will have no life. They will have a very long wait before they 'possibly' get to paradise.
Keeping them alive for as long as possible is the one thing they did not want. They have brought shame on themselves by failing in their actions. They will live with 'their' shame for the whole of their lives. That is a far more appropriate punishment, because it will drive them mad and they will not be able to do anything about it.
If we gave them the chance to die, they would see that as a way of escaping their shame, and possibly they would see themselves as martyrs. The man convicted of the bombing in Bali was delighted when the court passed the death sentence on him. It was just what he wanted.
We have to play these people at their own game. Deny them the result they want and they will be seen as impotent and useless.
I know that our 'gut' instinct is to invoke summary and capital justice, but by letting civilised law take the place of human reactions, we will show others that we are better than them.
I make these observations with a great deal of difficulty. If one of mine had been a victim on the 7 July, I'd be at the front of the queue to pull the lever on the trap door.
These are hard times for all of us and it is not easy to be objective when anger builds daily, as the security forces work hard to keep us all safe and secure.
These young men not only failed but they were caught. The shame must be driiving them nuts. Let'em suffer for a very long time. Bring them into court and everyone 'laugh' at them.
Paula, half of me agrees with you. It is not easy to deny them the death penalty. I don't have the answers, but I know that a lot of lawyers will be making a lot of money out of all this. They've started already in Italy. They are going to fight against extradition there and it will drag on for months in Rome.
So give them their rights and in time they'll be very old men with wasted years within the prison system. I know our taxes will pay to keep them alive, but I'm trying to look at it as keeping degenerate men in a state of total shame and failure, with no chance of escape from prison and no chance of escape from their mental torment. Perhaps that is more cruel than the death penalty? Deny them what they most desire.
I have to agree with them. We live in a civilised society where the rule of law prevents us from falling into anarchy. We have to maintain that law for all people who live here.
These young men will undergo due process of law and probably come to trial. The police must not make any mistakes in collecting and presenting the evidence to the court of law.
In due course, these young men will probably be found guilty, unless they actually plead guilty, and then they will be sentenced to a term of imprisonment.
The fact that they were willing to become martyrs shows the depth of their beliefs. They saw themselves entering paradise and being welcomed as special souls.
To allow them to enter our prison system and spend the rest of their days trapped inside steel and concrete cells would be the worst form of result that they would want.
They will never become martyrs. They will merely exist. They will have no future. They will have no life. They will have a very long wait before they 'possibly' get to paradise.
Keeping them alive for as long as possible is the one thing they did not want. They have brought shame on themselves by failing in their actions. They will live with 'their' shame for the whole of their lives. That is a far more appropriate punishment, because it will drive them mad and they will not be able to do anything about it.
If we gave them the chance to die, they would see that as a way of escaping their shame, and possibly they would see themselves as martyrs. The man convicted of the bombing in Bali was delighted when the court passed the death sentence on him. It was just what he wanted.
We have to play these people at their own game. Deny them the result they want and they will be seen as impotent and useless.
I know that our 'gut' instinct is to invoke summary and capital justice, but by letting civilised law take the place of human reactions, we will show others that we are better than them.
I make these observations with a great deal of difficulty. If one of mine had been a victim on the 7 July, I'd be at the front of the queue to pull the lever on the trap door.
These are hard times for all of us and it is not easy to be objective when anger builds daily, as the security forces work hard to keep us all safe and secure.
These young men not only failed but they were caught. The shame must be driiving them nuts. Let'em suffer for a very long time. Bring them into court and everyone 'laugh' at them.
Paula, half of me agrees with you. It is not easy to deny them the death penalty. I don't have the answers, but I know that a lot of lawyers will be making a lot of money out of all this. They've started already in Italy. They are going to fight against extradition there and it will drag on for months in Rome.
So give them their rights and in time they'll be very old men with wasted years within the prison system. I know our taxes will pay to keep them alive, but I'm trying to look at it as keeping degenerate men in a state of total shame and failure, with no chance of escape from prison and no chance of escape from their mental torment. Perhaps that is more cruel than the death penalty? Deny them what they most desire.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
I agree making them live out the rest of their lives in jail is an appropriate punishment. It had crossed my mind that hopefully they did find the right people and not incarcerated a person to show an example.
Oh ya it is incredible how these actions have planted seeds of racism, hate and fear around the world. We have to avoid this, must be part of their plan.These are hard times for all of us and it is not easy to be objective when anger builds daily, as the security forces work hard to keep us all safe and secure.
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
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linda_lakeside
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Byron,
Thanks for the above post and everyone else as well.
A lot of us, and I'm with Byron here, would like to see those that inflict pain on others, innocent others, spend the rest of their lives in prison, being subjected to the 'laws of the prison'. It will not be an easy life for them to live, and they are likely to take their own lives, rather than be subjected to the ridicule and hatred that will by rained down on them by the other prisoners.
Yet, many people feel 'let's give it to them', the gallows. They (the terrorists) are eroding our lives bit by bit, and I think they should suffer. I didn't think I'd ever say this, but I would rather see them 'suffer' than die with 'Martyr' pasted above their graves. I know there are so many arguments against this, but ... ?
It's a problem without any seeming solution at this point, but if one of my loved ones died in any terrorist attack, I would want them to 'suffer'. I would want their dreams of 'Martyrdom' be smashed. Let them die in shame. Dying is so easy, as was proven by the innocent victims. I would prefer to see the perpetrators of these crimes 'go it the hard way'. No, virgins, no banquets, etc. Life in Prison. No Parole.
Linda.
Thanks for the above post and everyone else as well.
A lot of us, and I'm with Byron here, would like to see those that inflict pain on others, innocent others, spend the rest of their lives in prison, being subjected to the 'laws of the prison'. It will not be an easy life for them to live, and they are likely to take their own lives, rather than be subjected to the ridicule and hatred that will by rained down on them by the other prisoners.
Yet, many people feel 'let's give it to them', the gallows. They (the terrorists) are eroding our lives bit by bit, and I think they should suffer. I didn't think I'd ever say this, but I would rather see them 'suffer' than die with 'Martyr' pasted above their graves. I know there are so many arguments against this, but ... ?
It's a problem without any seeming solution at this point, but if one of my loved ones died in any terrorist attack, I would want them to 'suffer'. I would want their dreams of 'Martyrdom' be smashed. Let them die in shame. Dying is so easy, as was proven by the innocent victims. I would prefer to see the perpetrators of these crimes 'go it the hard way'. No, virgins, no banquets, etc. Life in Prison. No Parole.
Linda.
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Tchocolatl
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- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Well. I was told otherwise in my History course. Between you and me, I don't see many differences to put one's body in front of running horses than in front of cars, it is much easy to conclude how the race would be disrupted in both cases, as I saw the film and nobody with its good sense would have done such a thing, she ran just in front of the horse. In any case, there was a campaign of self-sacrificed acts and I wonder about self-sacrifice acts. I mean, doing a better job than your "ennemy", let say, destroying yourself, is very strange, in my eyes.Tri-me wrote:My great grandmother was a suffrogette so I am familiar with the horse story. Emily Davidson was not attempting suicide she wanted to disrupt the race.
Here is a link about her and in fact, this is not so clear : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Davison
Interesting.
Yes. Hum. Maybe Christianity was not such a thing os self-sacrifice as some would like to think.
The Christ did not want to die nor God wants him to suffer. It is mankind that did the whole butcher job. It was human beings choice to crucify Jesus.
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Tchocolatl
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i don't know if 'brainwashed' is the right term, since i think they mostly brainwashed themselves, but to this i agree. whatever wrong you feel you are suffering, never should you switch an object of your hatered for easier target like random people in the subway...
but random people are killed every day in the name of money and power, and never is it a subject of discussion here until we feel threatened ourselves. armies representing our nations (yes, unfortunatly my own country is there, giving ony a symbolic number of soldiers, but nevertheless) are killing innocents, and do we raise our voices? unlike some, we all live in democratic countries, and nothing is going to happen to us if we express our dislike for any killings. be it for virgins (i still strongly disagree that this was the reason for suicidal bombings, but have little strength left to go into psychoanalisis), oil or 'protecting our way of life' (oil again - and a question: what about the way of life we have to destroy in order to preserve our?).
but random people are killed every day in the name of money and power, and never is it a subject of discussion here until we feel threatened ourselves. armies representing our nations (yes, unfortunatly my own country is there, giving ony a symbolic number of soldiers, but nevertheless) are killing innocents, and do we raise our voices? unlike some, we all live in democratic countries, and nothing is going to happen to us if we express our dislike for any killings. be it for virgins (i still strongly disagree that this was the reason for suicidal bombings, but have little strength left to go into psychoanalisis), oil or 'protecting our way of life' (oil again - and a question: what about the way of life we have to destroy in order to preserve our?).
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Tchocolatl
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Never take the time to go into phychoanalisis means never take the time to solve the problems and continue to kill or hurt or blame or try to control skapegoat instead, and the problems will go forever until we have destroyed enough things that our survival will be impossible.
I don't have time... pretty excuse but poor protection against the hard reality.
It matters not for G_d or Jesus if human beings crucified him, both have eternal life and it was just a hand they send toward human beings, a gesture of love toward us. In reality, it matters only for human kind if they kill Love.
I don't know if brain wash is the right term also. I prefer to talk into terms of consciousness and uncousciousness usually, but sometimes, you have to admit that brain wash technics were used (a culture trade camels and virgins for a good or a service or a favour, while another culture trade money, cars, sex, and this is no so strange for each of the culture).
Just don't hate whatever happen, may be a fine ground for Love to grow. Maybe. What do you think?
I don't have time... pretty excuse but poor protection against the hard reality.
It matters not for G_d or Jesus if human beings crucified him, both have eternal life and it was just a hand they send toward human beings, a gesture of love toward us. In reality, it matters only for human kind if they kill Love.
I don't know if brain wash is the right term also. I prefer to talk into terms of consciousness and uncousciousness usually, but sometimes, you have to admit that brain wash technics were used (a culture trade camels and virgins for a good or a service or a favour, while another culture trade money, cars, sex, and this is no so strange for each of the culture).
Just don't hate whatever happen, may be a fine ground for Love to grow. Maybe. What do you think?
Whether the news we recieve is accurate or propaganda from what I have heard the virgins are part of the incentive, we should not get too hung up on the virgins, it is just that it is a concept that makes us furrow our brows.
There was a time when wars were fought in fields face to face combat In Canada the Plains of Abraham was the most famous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... of_Abraham many deaths and there is still problems with the relationship between the French and English. In the days of Bodaccia the families would be in the back because they would all travel together. Mind you she is not a great example because she burnt London to the ground which could be interperted as a terrorist attack. London's burning london's burning draw nearer.....
Now we have gurilla warfare where collateral damage is counted, innocent civilians are killed, there is torture. The Americans were torturing their prisioners. WAR IS AN UGLY WASTE OF LIFE. Through history no matter how battles were fought they were nasty ugly horrible. Is it too much to hope that one day there would be no more wars. No more hate, no more ignorance. As the cities and tows around the world become global villages will there be more acceptance? I know people from many different countries and we are all the same. We all love our children, we all bleed, we all endeavour to survive. I know that during WWI there were racial issues, but I don't think it was at the level we see today. The terrorists want us to hate, they want us to be pissed off enough to want to fight back. I live near one of the largest military bases/training facilities in Canada camp gagetown. My dad was in the military. I am proud of his peacekeeping, could not stand to go to any Army day parades. War, killing really turns my stomach........
I will shut it now and go play with my pussy.........cat
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There was a time when wars were fought in fields face to face combat In Canada the Plains of Abraham was the most famous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... of_Abraham many deaths and there is still problems with the relationship between the French and English. In the days of Bodaccia the families would be in the back because they would all travel together. Mind you she is not a great example because she burnt London to the ground which could be interperted as a terrorist attack. London's burning london's burning draw nearer.....
Now we have gurilla warfare where collateral damage is counted, innocent civilians are killed, there is torture. The Americans were torturing their prisioners. WAR IS AN UGLY WASTE OF LIFE. Through history no matter how battles were fought they were nasty ugly horrible. Is it too much to hope that one day there would be no more wars. No more hate, no more ignorance. As the cities and tows around the world become global villages will there be more acceptance? I know people from many different countries and we are all the same. We all love our children, we all bleed, we all endeavour to survive. I know that during WWI there were racial issues, but I don't think it was at the level we see today. The terrorists want us to hate, they want us to be pissed off enough to want to fight back. I live near one of the largest military bases/training facilities in Canada camp gagetown. My dad was in the military. I am proud of his peacekeeping, could not stand to go to any Army day parades. War, killing really turns my stomach........
I will shut it now and go play with my pussy.........cat
.Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen