Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

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therowdyman
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by therowdyman »

Nothing left to do wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2024 5:24 pm
GolemZGLM wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:03 pm what's strange is the leak of the set doesn't seem to match this tracklist, so I'm wondering if someone retagged the set wrong, or if there's actually some difference here
the 10 CD list you have quoted in your post comprises 28 different songs with a total of 152 takes. The link above this list shows seven albums labelled 'Leonard Cohen 1967'. These are the same as the CDs 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in the 10 CD list. The CDs 3, 4, and 10 are not included in the album list.
The download offered generously by albumsshouldexist includes 22 different songs with a total of 106 takes. A close comparison between the number of takes for each song shows significant differences between the 10 CD version and the download (first number is the number of takes in the 10 CD version / second number ist the number of takes in the download):
- Anyone Can See (1 / 4)
- Avalanche (5 / 3)
- The Beach of Idios (1 / 0)
- Blessed Is the Memory (2 / 2)
- Come On Marianne (5 / 6)
- Dress Rehearsal Rag (0 / 1)
- Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye (17 / 12)
- Jewels on Your Shoulder (5 / 3)
- Lost Change (5 / 0)
- Love Calls you by Your Name (23 / 22)
- Love is the Item (1 / 0)
- Master Song (1 / 1)
- Middle of the Night (5 / 0)
- Nancy, Where Have You Been Sleeping (1 / 1)
- One of Us Cannot Be Wrong (11 / 12)
- Sing Another Song, Boys (2 / 0)
- Sisters of Mercy (9 / 4)
- So Long, Marianne (1 / 0)
- Splinter (1 / 0)
- Standing on the Stairs (0 / 6)
- Store Room (2 / 1)
- Stories of the Street (11 / 9)
- The Stranger (8 / 2)
- The Sun Is My Son (1 / 0)
- Suzanne (10 / 4)
- Teachers (9 / 3)
- Tonight Will Be Fine (5 / 2)
- Winter Lady (3 / 3)
- Winter Lady (Travelling Lady) (1 / 0)
- You Know Who I Am (6 / 2)
As you can see not only the number of takes differ, but furthermore some songs are only included in either the 10 CD version or the download. I must admit that up to now I haven't had the time to listen to the complete download to check whether any songs might be misidentified. It further does not help that in the download the takes seem to be renumbered and the recording date information is missing. Full clarification is only possible by close comparison of the download with the 10 CD version. If anybody can provide access (via PM) to the 10 CD version I would therefore be very grateful.
Some observations regarding the 106 tracks vs the 152 from the official 1967 set. I do believe these are from the Copyright album but mis-tagged. Listening to the takes as they've been tagged, and you can hear from the sonic differences in the placement of microphones and what mics they used (partially with Cohen's vocals and guitar), arrangements, EQ, different keys. It's clear that certain takes were recorded at different times.

* The track tagged as "Come On, Marianne [Early Version of So Long, Marianne] [Take 6]" has the lyrics "So Long, Marianne" instead of "Come On". It's most likely "So Long, Marianne (Take 5) (17 Oct Session)".

* Anything from the 8 Sept 1967 Session is pretty easy to pick, as they all have the same arrangement with Kaleidoscope backing on electric bass and guitar, drums and organ.

* With what we know about the differences in production styles of John Hammond and John Simon, this can be used as a guide to pick out where a record fits in relation to the official 1967 track list. For example, the 8 September sessions with Kaleidoscope were when John Hammond was still the producer. October 11th sounds is most like when John Simon came onto the project. The harpsichord on "One of Us Cannot Be Wrong" [Take 1] sounds like the 1960s pop arrangements from Simon. Similar is the strings on "Sisters of Mercy [Take 1]" and the jazz-pop strings and wind instruments on "Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye" [Take 8] :shock:

* I think some of those tracks listed as "Anyone Can See" are actually "Sing Another Song, Boys" takes. Although that doesn't explain the additional "Anyone Can See" that the 106 set has that the official one doesn't

* "Standing on the Stairs" is an alternate title for "In The Middle Of The Night".

* Dress Rehearsal Rag [Take 1] sounds similar to the mix featured on the 2007 version of Songs of Love and Hate. That was listed on the CD liner notes as being from the Songs from a Room sessions with Bob Johnston (October 1968).

* "I've Been Through All Your Clothes" is "The Sun Is My Son".

If there were running times for the official 1967 version, that would help to match the dates from the 106 tracks set. An album like Songs of had such an interesting and rocky production history, it would be better to listen to these tracks in their correct chronological order.

It goes without saying that this would make a killer boxset!
Last edited by therowdyman on Thu Feb 01, 2024 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by Nothing left to do »

therowdyman wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2024 4:34 am Some observations regarding the 106 tracks vs the 152 from the official 1967 set. I do believe these are from the Copyright album but mis-tagged. Listening to the takes as they've been tagged, and you can hear from the sonic differences in the placement of microphones and what mics they used (partially with Cohen's vocals and guitar), arrangements, EQ, different keys. It's clear that certain takes were recorded at different times.
Thanks for your valuable and helpful comments. I have listened in the meantime to a large part of these studio outtakes and have the following remarks. Two takes each of the following songs appear to be identical as they not only have the same track length and file size but also sound vitually identical:
- Come On, Marianne (takes 4 and 5)
- Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye (takes 3 and 4)
- I've Been Through All Your Clothes (takes 1 and 2)
- Love Calls You by Your Name (takes 12 and 13)
- One of Us Cannot Be Wrong (takes 6 and 7)
- Standing on the Stairs (takes 1 and 2)
- Suzanne (takes 3 and 4).
The track tagged as "Come On, Marianne [Early Version of So Long, Marianne] [Take 6]" has the lyrics "So Long, Marianne" instead of "Come On". It's most likely "So Long, Marianne (Take 5) (17 Oct Session)".
I agree that take 6 of 'Come On, Marianne' is actually 'So Long, Marianne'. Takes 4 and 5 of 'Come On, Marianne' are the same. Both takes have exactly the same comment by John Hammond at the end.
* Anything from the 8 Sept 1967 Session is pretty easy to pick, as they all have the same arrangement with Kaleidoscope backing on electric bass and guitar, drums and organ.
According to the 10 CD list the following nine songs were recorded on September 8, 1967:
- Store Room (2 takes)
- Blessed Is the Memory (2 takes)
- Winter Lady (3 takes)
- Tonight Will Be Fine (2 takes)
Eight of them are included in the download and these have indeed a similar sound. Do you know whether Kaleidoscope was used only on one date as the backing band? Is there any source for this? Additionally, is in any on the books on Cohen a detailed analysis of the 1967 studio sessions?
* With what we know about the differences in production styles of John Hammond and John Simon, this can be used as a guide to pick out where a record fits in relation to the official 1967 track list. For example, the 8 September sessions with Kaleidoscope were when John Hammond was still the producer. October 11th sounds is most like when John Simon came onto the project.
This would mean that all sessions up to September 8 were produced by John Hammond and all sessions from October 11 were produced by John Simon. I tried to find a verification for this but couldn't find anything-
* I think some of those tracks listed as "Anyone Can See" are actually "Sing Another Song, Boys" takes. Although that doesn't explain the additional "Anyone Can See" that the 106 set has that the official one doesn't
The lyrics of 'Anyone Can See' are clearly an early version of 'Sing Another Song, Boys'. However the lyrics of all four versions of this song contain the title 'Anyone Can See' but not 'Sing Another Song, Boys'. Therefore I am not sure whether some of these are actually 'Sing Another Song, Boys'.
* "Standing on the Stairs" is an alternate title for "In The Middle Of The Night".
I agree as both titles are part of the song lyrics.
* Dress Rehearsal Rag [Take 1] sounds similar to the mix featured on the 2007 version of Songs of Love and Hate. That was listed on the CD liner notes as being from the Songs from a Room sessions with Bob Johnston (October 1968).
I agree.
* "I've Been Through All Your Clothes" is "The Sun Is My Son".
I agree as both titles are part of the song lyrics.
If there were running times for the official 1967 version, that would help to match the dates from the 106 tracks set. An album like Songs of had such an interesting and rocky production history, it would be better to listen to these tracks in their correct chronological order.

It goes without saying that this would make a killer boxset!
Individual track times could be a great help to try to reorder the tracks chronologically as this is the preferable way to listen to them. As 'albumsshouldexist' has stated that the 106 tracks are the complete 1967 studio sessions it remains open whether an official release with the 152 songs according to the 10 CD list ever existed. If anyone can help to clarify this it would be greatly appreciated.
I also support an official release of these sessions in boxset.
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by Nothing left to do »

I recently listened to the 10 CD version of the '1967 Copyright Collection' and noted a curiosity. The third song on CD 1 should be 'Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye' (take 1) from May 19 but is actually 'Anyone Can See' (early version of 'Sing Another Song, Boys'). I searched in the forum for any further information but much to my surprise could not find any post on this subject. I assume that this error happened when Sony / Columbia prepared the short-time release (probably in a hurry to meet the deadline at the end of the year 2017), but would nevertheless like to know whether anyone else has detected the same mistake or whether anyone has the correct song at this position.

Additionally I suppose that the recording date for the erroneously released version of 'Anyone Can See' is not May 19, as the other four takes from this date are recorded with a band whereas 'Anyone Can See' is a solo take by Leonard Cohen.

One further remark: When searching the forum I was somewhat astonished that I could not find any posts discussing this '1967 Copyright Collection'. Is there any reason for this? In my opinion it is a remarkable collection of songs showing Cohen working in the studio on the songs. It should be released officially.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by LisaLCFan »

Nothing left to do wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:52 pm ...When searching the forum I was somewhat astonished that I could not find any posts discussing this '1967 Copyright Collection'. Is there any reason for this? In my opinion it is a remarkable collection of songs showing Cohen working in the studio on the songs. It should be released officially.
Why no discussion about it on this forum, you ask? Nobody talks about much of anything around here anymore -- the place is very quiet.

However, I agree that it is a remarkable collection -- an absolute treasure! -- and I have greatly enjoyed listening to the songs. There are some wonderful and very interesting alternate lyrics, and a couple of the "Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye" takes (amongst other songs) have some marvellous instrumentation, so very different from the final version(s)!

Leonard Cohen never wanted early and/or unofficial versions of his songs released officially -- apparently he was quite adamant about that during his lifetime, from what I have read. Perhaps people feel that to do so now would be to go against his wishes. Time will tell.

Cheers!
denispiggott
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by denispiggott »

If anyone has the 10CD version I for one would be eternally grateful if it could be uploaded.
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by Nothing left to do »

LisaLCFan wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:29 am Why no discussion about it on this forum, you ask? Nobody talks about much of anything around here anymore -- the place is very quiet.

However, I agree that it is a remarkable collection -- an absolute treasure! -- and I have greatly enjoyed listening to the songs. There are some wonderful and very interesting alternate lyrics, and a couple of the "Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye" takes (amongst other songs) have some marvellous instrumentation, so very different from the final version(s)!

Leonard Cohen never wanted early and/or unofficial versions of his songs released officially -- apparently he was quite adamant about that during his lifetime, from what I have read. Perhaps people feel that to do so now would be to go against his wishes. Time will tell.

Cheers!
Thanks for your remarks. I have already registered that there is not much posting in this forum. That is significantly different to the Dylan forum 'Expecting Forum', of which I am member too, which has dozens of new posts every day. Obviously there are significant differences, Dylan is still alive and on tour whereas Leonard died more than seven years ago. Furthermore Dylan releases regularly new albums or albums from the archive whereas there have been no new releases from Leonard for a long time (probably due to the unresolved issues regarding his last will). Nevertheless I had thought that these 1967 studio outtakes would have caused some discussions.

Few days ago I listened to the different takes of 'Come On, Marianne' and they are intriguing as several of them have different lyrics or even contain verses with were omitted in the final release. As you already said, there are also considerable differences in the instrumentation on several takes of different songs. Thus I think there are enough issues to discuss.

I have also read that Leonard did not want to release these outtakes and that he was annoyed at the inclusion of bonus tracks in the remastered ecitions of his first three albums.

Please allow me to come back to my original question. Is in your version of the '1967 Copyright Collection' the third song on the first CD also 'Anyone Can See' instead of 'Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye' as referred to in the files and in this thread?

Thanks and all the best
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by LisaLCFan »

Nothing left to do wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:39 pm [1] ...I have already registered that there is not much posting in this forum. That is significantly different to the Dylan forum 'Expecting Forum', of which I am member too, which has dozens of new posts every day...

[2] Please allow me to come back to my original question. Is in your version of the '1967 Copyright Collection' the third song on the first CD also 'Anyone Can See' instead of 'Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye' as referred to in the files and in this thread?...
1. As for the Cohen-Dylan comparison, I think that it is fair to say that Dylan has always been vastly more popular than Cohen (in sheer numbers), thus his fan base is massive, whereas Cohen was always more of a niche artist with a much smaller fan base. That might be a part of the reason for less activity here, in addition to the things you noted.

Mind you, I have also thought that it is rather odd that even amongst the few who are still lurking around here, as well as the occasional new member, there has been little to no discussion about any of the new Cohen-related stuff that has come out during the past several years. Perhaps people simply choose to embrace and enjoy Leonard's work in more private ways.

2. I don't have the 10 CD set, just the compilation of 106 tracks (or 105, if you remove the duplicate of "Come On, Marianne") that albumsshouldexist made available, and so I cannot answer your question.


Some general comments about the 1967 recordings:

Regarding the alternate lyrics/verses in some of those takes of "Come On, Marianne", you may know that some of those popped up in Leonard's live performances over the years, the latter of which I had heard before hearing the 1967 recordings, thus it was interesting for me to discover that they were very old lyrics that were simply cut from the final studio releases.

This 1967 collection finally made it clear to me why the song "One of Us Cannot Be Wrong" was so named, with this absolutely beautiful verse:

"I'm lost in the spell that I started
To turn myself into a stone.
I thought you'd be lying beside me
I don't want to be one alone.
Oh, I cannot feel you,
I cannot see you,
It's only your shadow that's warm.
Oh, keep me from harm
In my negative form,
One of us cannot be wrong."


I just love that verse, and I wish that it had not been cut -- it is fabulous! It is one of my favourite things about the 1967 set.

I also love the very up-beat 1960's pop-rock version(s) of "Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye" -- totally not Leonard's style (to say the least!), but fun to hear! The version of that song that features strings, brass, and an oboe is also wonderful!

I also really like the "Sisters of Mercy" version with the strings -- it is lovely. Apparently Leonard very much disliked the strings that were used in those various studio takes, for they did not reflect what he wanted, and obviously a lot of that was cut from the final versions. I am a huge classical music/chamber music aficionado, and so I very much enjoy hearing those instruments!

The frequent and prominent use of the jaw harp in many of the takes of many songs is also intriguing, reminding me of the Songs From A Room album. As you may know, the stripped down instrumentation in Songs From a Room was much closer to what Leonard had wanted for Songs of Leonard Cohen.

Cheers!
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by hamburger »

Thank you very much for the transcribtion.

I still prefer the eskimo version. But that could change.

I am a big Leonard Cohen fan. But it looks like the outtakes from Bob Dylan are much more interesting.
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by B4real »

I just have to say that is a most exquisite and bewitching verse :D
I wonder the reason why Leonard decided to leave it out....
It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to B4real ~ me
Attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy ~ me ...... The magic of art is the truth of its lies ~ me ...... Only left-handers are in their right mind!
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by LisaLCFan »

B4real wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 12:32 am I just have to say that is a most exquisite and bewitching verse :D
I think so, too— it’s magnificent and evocative and enchanting, I absolutely love it!
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by Nothing left to do »

hamburger wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:57 pm But it looks like the outtakes from Bob Dylan are much more interesting.
You should take into consideration that the '1967 Copyright Collection' only includes the outtakes of the studio sessions for 'Songs of Leonard Cohen', that is one specific LP. If you compare them to the outtakes of 'The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan', then I cannot see a reason why Dylan's outtakes are more (or less) interesting.

However if you take all of Dylan's outtakes from 1961 up to 2006, which is the last year with known outtakes, then Dylan's outtakes are much more interesting as they have a significantly larger diversity. But such a comparison is a bit unfair and should only be done if we have outtakes of the bulk of Cohen's albums.
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by Nothing left to do »

LisaLCFan wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:08 pm
1. As for the Cohen-Dylan comparison, I think that it is fair to say that Dylan has always been vastly more popular than Cohen (in sheer numbers), thus his fan base is massive, whereas Cohen was always more of a niche artist with a much smaller fan base. That might be a part of the reason for less activity here, in addition to the things you noted.

Some general comments about the 1967 recordings:

Regarding the alternate lyrics/verses in some of those takes of "Come On, Marianne", you may know that some of those popped up in Leonard's live performances over the years, the latter of which I had heard before hearing the 1967 recordings, thus it was interesting for me to discover that they were very old lyrics that were simply cut from the final studio releases.

This 1967 collection finally made it clear to me why the song "One of Us Cannot Be Wrong" was so named, with this absolutely beautiful verse:

"I'm lost in the spell that I started
To turn myself into a stone.
I thought you'd be lying beside me
I don't want to be one alone.
Oh, I cannot feel you,
I cannot see you,
It's only your shadow that's warm.
Oh, keep me from harm
In my negative form,
One of us cannot be wrong."


I just love that verse, and I wish that it had not been cut -- it is fabulous! It is one of my favourite things about the 1967 set.

I also love the very up-beat 1960's pop-rock version(s) of "Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye" -- totally not Leonard's style (to say the least!), but fun to hear! The version of that song that features strings, brass, and an oboe is also wonderful!
I agree that Dylan's fanbase is larger than Cohen's. However on the board index page of the Cohen forum it says it has 30937 total members, whereas the equivalent figure on the Dylan forum 'Expecting Rain' is 32189 total members, which is not very different.

Thanks for your transcription of the verse from 'One of Us Cannot Be Wrong'. It is really fascinating and impressive and you are right that it should have been left in the released version. I haven't yet detected it as I have only listened to some parts of this copyright collection.

I didn't know that Leonard came back to some of the discarded lyrics and verses when performing 'So Long, Marianne' live but I will pay attention when listening to live recordings.

I was very surprised when I listened for the first time to the versions of 'Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye' with strings and brass. These are very different to the released version and the song exudes a hilarious mood. They are a good example that Cohen could be very adventurous and why these outtakes are an intriguing to listen to.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by LisaLCFan »

Nothing left to do wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 7:06 pm ...I agree that Dylan's fanbase is larger than Cohen's. However on the board index page of the Cohen forum it says it has 30937 total members, whereas the equivalent figure on the Dylan forum 'Expecting Rain' is 32189 total members, which is not very different...
The number of forum members grew astronomically during the World Tour 2008-2013, with many people seeking concert information. There were also pre-sales for concert tickets for forum-members only, and I suspect that a lot of people joined to take advantage of that benefit during those years, but who were otherwise not active on this forum. It would be interesting to see how many of the people who joined during the 2008-2013 Tour have logged on or made posts in the past 11 years or so (or ever: there is no posting requirement to become a member, or to stay one). I happened to join during the first year of that tour, but I was a life-long Cohen fan who simpy didn't know about the forum previously, and I have remained an active member ever since.

Just looking at recent posts over the last few years, it is clear that very few people are regularly active here now, for whatever reasons: people make their own choices, and who am I to judge or assess them? I have no idea what it's like at the Dylan forum (nor do I care, to be honest!), as to how it compares to this one with active members.

And, of course, is not a competition!
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by Nothing left to do »

LisaLCFan wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 8:08 pm
2. ...the compilation of 106 tracks (or 105, if you remove the duplicate of "Come On, Marianne") that albumsshouldexist made available...
In my opinion 'Come On, Marianne' is not the only song in this 106 track compilation, which has duplicated takes (for this song they are the takes 4 and 5). The other six occurrences are
- Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye (takes 3 and 4)
- I've Been Through All Your Clothes (takes 1 and 2)
- Love Calls You by Your Name (takes 12 and 13)
- One of Us Cannot Be Wrong (takes 6 and 7)
- Standing on the Stairs (takes 1 and 2)
- Suzanne (takes 3 and 4).
Thus the actual number of different takes is reduced from 106 to 99.
If you further deduct 'Dress Rehearsal Rag', which is from the sessions for 'Songs from a Room', the download consists of 98 different takes from the 1967 studio sessions.
For me it remains incomprehensible why someone has duplicated some takes, renumbered all takes and deleted all recording information in the 106 song selection (assuming that it originates from the complete '1967 Copyright Collection').
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Re: Mysterious Leonard Cohen "1967 studio sessions" album - any information?

Post by Nothing left to do »

The '1967 Copyright Collection' contains four takes of 'Anyone Can See':
The first one is track 3 on CD 1 (wrongly labelled 'Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye'), the next two are tracks 5 and 6 on CD 2 (both labelled 'Sing Another Song, Boys) and the fourth one is track 4 on CD 3 (labelled 'Anyone Can See').
In my opinion all four takes should be named 'Anyone Can See', as this is what Leonard sings three times at the end of verse 3. The wording 'sing another song, boys' does not appear in any of the four takes, although the song is clearly an early version of 'Sing Another Song, Boys' and several sections of the lyrics were adopted into the released take on 'Songs of Love and Hate'.
There are several lyrical differences between the two takes on CD 2 and the one take on CD 3 which imply some rewriting by Leonard between these takes. Additionally, 'LisaLCFan' pointed out to me, that the two takes on CD 2 are in a higher key than the take on CD 3.
The take on CD 1 is in my opinion the same take as the one on CD 3 ('LisaLCFan' confirmed additionally that both are in the same key). There are however a few seconds cut at the beginning and the song is faded out before the last line of verse 3, thus leaving out the extended outro, which sounds as if Leonard had come up with it on the spot.
The four versions on the 106 song download are exactly these four versions.
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