Ln, what about this innocent South American guy that was shooted in the head by the policemen? It could be seen as cowardice much more than the brain washer bombers, if we go there. Rather one gives a deep and rational analysis of the situation or one is better to say "I'm just holding the fort", in order of not adding more confusion than the events are providing.
But its a free world, if you want to dig that way, go...
My family texted to say they are OK. The trouble is you hear of something kicking off in a country and forget that the country is large with lots of people and you always assume people you care about are in the centre of it
Yes the guy who got shot turned out to be innocent of the bombings but in the present circumstances the police did the right thing. He was challenged, told to stop, told that they were armed but he vaulted over a ticket barrier and ran down the stairs on to the tube, he was also wearing a thick winter coat on a warm day. In my mind the police did the right thing. Who knows why he ran he was Brazilian but had lived in London for three years so he would have been well aware of present circumstances.
Sara my daughter went on the tube yesterday and there was a carriage with an Indian family in mum, dad, kids and the carriage was empty apart from them no one wanted to take the chance. That is the legacy of these sort of acts, distrust and paranoia. Sad.
I was in Yellowknife NWT on vacation Sept 11. It was strange/frustrating/scarry all I wanted to do was go home. I was suppose to leave on Friday and stayed until Monday. I let YK around 8pm flying to Calgary. I won't go into too many details, but it was very tense at the airport and I was scared, had to stop myself from crying a couple of times.
The plane left Calgary around 11pm. Full, and lucky me I sat next to the only person who was reading, she said she was too scared to sleep. That movie Moulin Rouge was playing. It was great in the beginning amazing editing and colour then they started singing at each other GRRRRR. I could not sleep the whole 3-4 hrs the flight took. As we were about to land, a man in the seat across and up one from me started to slather cologne on him. I had an instant asthma attack. I did not have my inhaler handy. I said to him, "Hey what are you doing, you've given me an asthma attack." He just looked at me and turned away. He was a man who may be middle-eastern/asian. GAUD I felt like a S*** Head. I just fumed in embarrasment and humiliation. How could I explain to him that I was not one of "those" white people who think people that look like him are all terrorists, hey I was engaged to a Sri Lankan man 10 yrs ago. Had to let it go too tired and humiliated.
Another story was a friend of my x-man was in the bathroom. Another guy came in and sucker punched him and called him a terrorist. Buddy was a black belt grabbed him and put him to the ground. Hey I'm black Irish, you better smarten the f### up. He picked the wrong guy to vent his ignorance.
There is so much tension at times like this. The family must be humiliated. I hope it does not get worse.
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
I'm very relieved to know that your loved ones are all okay. Yes, it is a big country. But, not that big. It's natural for fear to heighten when it's broadcast as being a popular, tourist area for foreigners. It's natural to think that, perhaps, your own relatives went to a popular, tourist area. I'm very glad they didn't.
I had bad feelings about the Brazilian man getting shot, when he got shot. Those feelings were based on the many things that occur over here accidentally. I just kept re-running in my head, "But, why did he run!?!" However, plain-clothes policemen, even those saying they're armed, remains problematical. I was hoping they would find relevant, written materials or items in his dwelling. The heavy overcoat was, indeed, suspicious under the whole of the circumstances. It's hard to know what one is to do. It's easy to understand, in light of 52 already killed, other attempts already made, and ongoing threats of more, how innocent people could end up dead. I'm very sorry that this was one of those situations. I pray that people will become very circumspect, in how they respond to the attempts being made to prevent further tragedy.
The situation that Sara witnessed is very, very sad. I've heard that there's been a dramatic increase in hate crimes since the original subway/bus bombings.
The whole thing continues to bother me regarding the Brazilian man being shot and killed. The heavy overcoat in warm weather I still can't even come up with any reasonable possibilities; but I keep asking myself, "Why didn't he stop!?!" It's very difficult to un-'Americanize' my thinking on this. I guess this could be called 'ambulance chasing,' but since it continues to haunt me, I'll just say a little more on it.
Who knows what life was like for him in Brazil prior to his coming to London. If street crime was high, with armed robberies, it could sure add to his fear of two [plain clothed, saying they were police] men chasing him saying they were armed. I wonder how many street robberies there are in London, and if they haven't continued since the bombings.
My thoughts go in this direction because, here, we are warned to require sighting a badge or other means of verification when someone comes to our house or apartment or dorm stating they're a police officer, a meter reader, a repairman, a maintenance man, a poll taker, a salesperson, a whatever. That's because enough home robberies, rapes, and murders have occurred in this fashion for it to be a legitimate concern. Further concerns came when it was learned that some have purchased police uniforms and what appear to be police badges.
On the highway, we are cautioned about stopping in uninhabited/un-lit areas for cars with flashing lights, appearing to be police officers. People have, likewise, been robbed, raped, and murdered by people appearing to be/presumed to be police officers ~ with some being robbed and raped [though I'm not certain on the murder aspect] by some who actually are police officers.
I try to imagine myself on the street and two men with guns [or saying they're armed] commanding me to stop. Would I necessarily believe their claim that they were police officers? In the rush and panic of it all, did he hear that claim? Did they include that they wanted him to stop because they suspected him of being a terrorist? Is any of this even possible to do in a scenario like that? But, if it's not done, does the scenario become one of someone thinking he's simply being chased by two men intending to rob or kill him? And 'running for his life' in the more typical sense of that phrase. And would he as a terrorist [someone with the intent of blowing himself up, too] be petrified, and the look on his face be registering that? That's how he's been described as looking.
Would a terrorist look 'petrified;' or just 'determined' to reach his target point or to evade capture? But, then, the officers chasing him couldn't see his face. That's what the eyewitnesses saw.
The verbiage of one of the eyewitness accounts suggested that the man who gave it thought 5 shots was excessive. I haven't heard whether all 5 were fired close-up, at which point the look on his face [presumably] could be seen by the officer. Was a disabling shot not enough, or was 5 necessary to stop him from [presumably] blowing himself up, even at that point?
"Monday-morning quarterbacking" is always so much 'easier' than the in-the-moment decisions and actions that are being critiqued by someone not in the situation themselves [in this case, me; and those around the world who are questioning/criticizing/condemning the actions taken by the London police]. I'm not condemning them for what they did, or really even criticizing them. Here, police have been known to overreact and to become 'trigger happy' in certain situation. I believe police officers in the U.K. have a history of restraint, for many years not even carrying guns. I believe they did what they believed they had to do. However, this scene still haunts me:
Passengers said a man ran onto a train at Stockwell station in south London. Witnesses said plainclothes police chased him, he tripped, and police then shot him.
"They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him. He's dead," witness Mark Whitby told the British Broadcasting Corp. "He looked like a cornered fox. He looked petrified."
Britain is home to many immigrants from the South Asian countries of Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, among others.
These are very hard times.
My heart is with his family, friends, and loved ones, as well as him in his final minutes.
lizzytysh wrote:... but I keep asking myself, "Why didn't he stop!?!"...
Elizabeth, on our ABC TV tonight it was suggested that he may have been running from the police/authorities because his visa had apparently expired.
Furthermore, in an ABC interview with the eminent lawyer and human rights campaigner, Geoffrey Robertson, he suggested that this matter has a fair way further to go, irrespective of any early excusal or justification of police actions.
May I venture that it will be viewed as a costly misapprehension of an unfortunate set of circumstances, from whoever's perspective you look at it
Andrew (Darby)
Last edited by Andrew (Darby) on Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'I cannot give the reasons
I only sing the tunes
The sadness of the seasons
The madness of the moons'
~ Mervyn Peake ~
Yes, there's that, too. At one point, that briefly crossed my mind, and then I completely forgot it. Who knows why? In today's world of deportation and suspicion due to expired visas, his running would make as much sense as not. Very unfortunate, indeed.....and, yes, it has a way to go before any final determinations are made. There are many feeling badly about this situation, including the London police, I'm certain.
My thoughts immediately turned to lapsed visas when I heard this story. Also, how good was his English? Did he understand he may be shot? It sounds like a very confusing situation, for sure. Being from Brazil, who can imagine, like has been mentioned, the kind of life he may have endured there. Maybe the fear of being returned to Brazil was worth 'making a run for it' to him. I don't know the temperature in London that day, and this probably sounds ridiculous, but its very hot in Brazil. Could this explain the heavy coat? Who knows. We'll never know now. The fault still lies with those that have started the terror. Each death can be blamed on the terrorists themselves. Had it not been for the initial attacks, this would not have happened.
Paula wrote:Yes the guy who got shot turned out to be innocent of the bombings but in the present circumstances the police did the right thing. He was challenged, told to stop, told that they were armed but he vaulted over a ticket barrier and ran down the stairs on to the tube, he was also wearing a thick winter coat on a warm day. In my mind the police did the right thing.
??? ???
not to mention the fact that the POLICEMEN were ALIVE to tell their side of the story, whilst the poor guy had no chance of telling his (you can't expect them to say: - yeah, we shot him out of paranoia, and because he looked suspicious, not that he actualy did anything), you can't be serious about 'it' OK to shoot an innocent here and there in this type of situation'. that's as bad as saying: 'it's OK to plant a bomb or two in our situation, because we are underprivilaged'.
i stated several times that i'm against terrorism, but that i can understand the terrorists. i'll say the same here: i understand that this may have happened but let's not act as if it was the right thing to do. it was not! it was the future and it was murder!
It was not OK to shoot an innocent, for sure. I see this like that : in any business there is a margin of error, this is the sad reality. If there is terrorism acts that going on it is war time, then this kind of errors can occur and this is entering the margin of error. It is this margin or error which is OK, 'cause, anyway, you can not go without it.
It is not like to plan to bomb, or to enter a building in a plane. Or to plan to take the natural resource of a country at the price you decide because you are more powerful than this country, and if they are not happy with this you send the army to kill the leader. If you see what I mean.
Jurica....your rather consistent views on terrorists motivations who deliberately target innocent people in NY, Madrid, Bali, Saudi Arabia, London, Egypt etc etc are interesting to say the least.
Here is an alternative viewpoint by Newsweek Intl. editor Fareed Zakaria. a slightly different perspective from yours but also interesting, if you care to read it.
I have been accounting all of this to oil and control greed [at its very base], and that if it weren't for the U.S. [Westerners] invading Iran, Afghanistan, and Iraq, that the majority of this would not have taken hold and proliferated. Thanks for this link, Kush. What I've read by Fareed Zakaria gives me pause and a view in an entirely different direction. So right about those countries, who also opposed the wars, still being targeted.
Thanks Kush to have bring this interesting article that set the line between a religion (or any ideology) and a brain wash (or desease). And why.
It remains that social problems are caused by human beings. There is no magical cause. The cause lay inside of us, even if it is so easy to mistaken the shadows for the truth, cause our inner land is still not all discovered.
Boss did bring antoher interesting article about hitlerian ideology in the thread "Cohen bigger than money".
Symbols are the main language of all this.
Both airplane and tour are a phallic symbol. For me, this war began because a macho attitude of who would have the more powerful phallus.
And nothing else.
It was not necessary to go into all this pain, to begin with. You know when a war begins, you never know when it ends. This is a stupid macho thing to do, the war, as diplomacy and negociations could do the job far better and at a far better price - on all levels this word covers.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame men out of a feminist outburst (or PMS) as sexes are shadows as well. I mean symbols. Women could be as phallic as men, as "macho", and sometimes, they are more, while, we have "men with breasts" like Mexican can say. What it takes is not a liberation of the women, not only, but a liberation of feminine energy to balance the masculine energy in our society, just like it goes in the universe were harmony is.
But we came a long way, Baby! Better begin to dig in ourselves right now for the gold and diamants and stop the war.
I also agree with the tenets of what Tchocolatl is saying regarding wars = macho [the control greed would have this at its base, as well]; yet, that energy is not always necessarily accountable to men vs. women. Also, that our own, inner land is still not all discovered. I'll check out the Hitlerian-perspective article, when I get a chance.
I also heard some discussion on NPR this morning about how polls are indicating that Americans' views of the Islamic religion have improved since September 11, and that American Muslims, in general, are held in higher regard. The jist was how Americans are separating out the difference between the extremists and regular followers, and that they realize that any belief system can have those at the extreme. It was encouraging.
It could be seen as cowardice much more than the brain washer bombers, if we go there. Rather one gives a deep and rational analysis of the situation or one is better to say "I'm just holding the fort", in order of not adding more confusion than the events are providing. 
