Explosions in London

[Tchocolatl]

"But it must be remembered that it was the church that burned down the library at Alexandria,"


I was under the impression that no one knows who is actually responsible for burning down the library at Alexandria. The first suspect was Julius Caesar.

The library was partly destroyed by a fire because of a battle against Ceasar while he was in Alexandria. But not more, as far as I know, the fire was an accident. It was destroyed later.

The Church forbid every writing that was not in accordance with the doctrine (as all powers of the time were doing) that equals having burned (or try to do so) any writings anywhere.

[Tchocolatl]

(clue of the day : muscles are working in pairs of opposite.)

This is very nice, the darkness in regard of the Churh and so true also.

And the great philosophers that did free the mind, that cut the head of the royalties and nobles, for real in France and not for real but for good in England, and everything.

But after this, when the big beautiful ideas of freedom and liberty had all the place, let see what happened in concrete reality.

People who had means were almighty while the others were nothing. Freedom and equality of the citizen ment in fact, freedom of doing business without any restriction (and free of tax duty to a king and nobles).

The result was a new society style were men, women and children were forced to work in awful conditions, most of time, to exhaustion, without any right. They were slaves without any right of some sorts (the kings and the nobles had some duties in regard of the protection of the peasants and they should take care of them in other ways).

For some times, the only entity that stands for human values like compassion, love and care for human beings at large because they were human and only for that, was the Church.

So before spiting on It all the way, we may be considering this and many other things.

[~greg]

A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.

[ForYourSmile]

Our thoughts are based on our knowledge, our experiences and feelings. Then, everything what we can express they are prejudices... Well, let's try to hold the opened mind.

Sometimes we try to simplify, as well we are interested in it. James Bond 007 at the end of the movie saves the humanity destroying the evil with a great explosion, sometimes the villain escapes for another movie. The reality can be different.

The suicides neither are just erased minds acting for fanatical religious reasons and for the virgins. There are cases of young women bomb and intellectually sufficient formed.

Also there is something of myth in the terrorist nets and the countries that finance the evil. For example the attempts of Madrid, certainly more horrifying than those of London and as well human beings died when Spain was a docile ally of USA, were auto-financed by small delinquency and paying the explosives with drugs. The bombs of September 11 were commercial American planes.

At the back the terrorism there is a deep frustration and specially hate with a certain and necessary ideological catalyst.

When the fear is in our houses and it threatens to those that we love we wonder why. Probably they prefer that the innocent victims take place far from their people.

As have been said the Moslem countries are characterized by the lack of democracy and respect to the human rights. It is a generalization as Jarica has remembered in the Bosnia case. But, what has done the USA's administration in this? Always, always it has supported the most corrupt in the political most terrible, and hardly ever it has never acted for real humanitarian reasons. The current Empire has created monsters that then it could not have controlled. Just for their expansionist and imperialistic reasons.

It seems to me to be hypocritical when they remember as a justification the topic of the Kurds. Who was the ally of Iraq and the one who was giving them weapon? And what about Turkey?

On the other hand I would want to see led the just claims of the Moslem peoples otherwise. When I see to the poor Africans that try to come to my country in precarious ships, sometimes losing the life, I would say that they should return to fight against their dictator. Sometimes I would leave myself the beard grows and would turn me into Che Guevara . Absurdity, I have been in Morocco and know a bit that. There is a heroic opposition but, a state absolutely oppressor kept by USA they make it totally impossible. Do you know the topic of the Sahara? The refugees' fields. There is too a responsibility of the Spanish Government,

The religion is a tool of repression, is not the root of the problem. The Islam is not worse than the Christianity, in fact it is a more modern religion. The question is as it is manipulated.

Japanese culture has a tradition of hara kiri where the sense of honour is no less great than in Spanish culture that came from the Arabic culture when Spanish was invaded by the Arabs.

This sounds me as a funny cliche. Well, it's useful to remember that this Arabic culture stimulated by the Islam was better, technologically speaking, to the Christian one for its Aristotle base.

This time it is hard to me to finish with a smile, but I desire to speak about hope, I am a dreamer, as John Lennon speaks in Imagine. I believe that the humanity advances positively, though sometimes it does not seem and that giving our opinion we can do something .

[jurica]

Jurica- your response is that of a child, who is distracted by something else, not capable of concentrating on the subject. Like, I would talk to you, and the fly sits on my nose, you cannot follow the conversation, but you would concentrate on the fly.

no comment. in itself it speaks of you intentions when arguing, and you ability to come up with real arguments for what you have to say.

Great scientists and philosophers like Nicholas Cusanus, Giordano Bruno, Ficino, Pico, later Gallileo, Leonardo, Machiavelli, Alberti. Giordano Bruno was free to publish all of his works

as were Arabian scolars who brought astronomy to Europe, just as they preserved Greek manuscripts that would othervise have been destroyed. what's your point?

Bruno was prosecuted not for his works, which were widely recognized and read among the clergy and scholars, but because of intense intrigues and political plottings,

"Contemporary scientists like Descartes, equating Jesuitical science with the oppressive Inquisition that had so recently executed Giordano Bruno and imprisoned Gallileo for their unorthodox theories, regarded Kircher's work with suspicion." --- The Museum Of Jurassic Technology

The ever present screams for the freedom to homosexuals are just laughable matter

just like those laughable screams for equality for men and women, face it - you are just a lower creature that i'd refuse to talk to in person, shaming your husband whenever you show your unveiled face.

Jurica- one more time- I did not call for the reforms in Islam- Rushdy did. You are calling for reforms in Christianity-while not being a Christian.

nope. i did not call for reforms in Christianity - Andrew did. i just agreed with both Rushdie and Andrew that reformes are welcome, whilst you agreed with Rushdie, but loudly refused Andrew's idea.

What right and urge you have to attack constantly my church, I do not know. If you are irritated by the fact that western societies intellectually and socially are influenced by Christianity, it is just a historical fact you have to recognize and intellectually resolve the situation for yourself, the blame/game will not help you.

i have recognized the fact that even i am influenced by Christianity and Bible like a dozen pages before this, and you know it (since i remember you responded something to it), you just choose to forget it whenever it suits you.

and i do not care one little bit for your Church as long as you don't use other people's religion as a base for attack (like you always talk about Islam being a reason for terrorism), and as long as it leaves worldly things alone.

[jurica]

Jurica....about nonbeliever ....I dont usually ponder on questions that I have no way of answering or even speculating. But no, I do not subscribe to conventional or nonconventional religion

the same with me. i don't know how the universe came to being, and can there be said to exist some Higher Being or not, so i thought for some time what word to use... i didn't want to say: you are an 'atheist', because that would imply that you don't belive in the existence of God, or whatever you want to call it. so i figured 'nonbeliver' should work fine.

[Tri-me]

For Your Smile thanks for your post.
I was working at he SkyDome in Toronto when the first gulf war broke out. I worked in the hot kitchen and was often in charge of preparing the vegetables. There was a man from Iran that almost always worked for me. He was in his mid to late 50's, very sweet and kind. He did not discuss politics. When the war started of course people would talk, what else are you going to do peeling carrots? All I remember him saying was how disgusted he was and how the Americans sold weapons to Iraq to invade his country. He left the table makes me misty to think of it. War creates a quagmire and viscious cycle of balme, stirs up stereotypes and creates prejudice.

[Kush]

I dont usually ponder on questions that I have no way of answering or even speculating. But no, I do not subscribe to conventional or nonconventional religion. I do have however a healthy and academic respect from where religions come from even if we leave each other alone.

Just to put things into context Jurica. It is different from you....from what I can make out from your posts.

[Kush]

I think too many other issues have gotten mixed up since my post about modern science being a child of the church.

But too add to what was of interest to me in my last two posts....every great civilization had had its day. The Chinese, Indus valley, Egyptian, Arab etc etc.
However, bending facts out of shape for political correctness is not my style.
The fact is that since colonial times this is the age of Western civilization....just like all the other great civilizations influenced everybody else in its time, the world today is influenced by western culture. You know that when Japan starts exporting baseball players and jazz musicians to the US (in addition to cars and other gizmos).
And the most visible and significant contribution of the western civilization is modern science & technology....while wisdom in itself is a continuum it does not grow linearly but in fits and starts.
It is useless comparing this and that in the global world of today...for instance something like 50% of recent science Ph.Ds in US are Asian who are about 5% of the entire population (all diligently following the principles of modern science that had its root in Europe a few hundred years ago.....not any ancient chinese or Arab or European alchemists).

Here is a quote from Carl Sagan's book Cosmos

We have in this book devoted attention to some of our ancestors whose names have not been lost: Eratosthenes, Democritus, Aristarchus, Hypatia, Leonardo, Kepler, Newton, Huygens, Champollion, Humason, Goddard, Einstein - all from the Western culture because emerging scientific civilization on our planet is mainly a Western civilization*; but every culture - China, India, West Africa, Mesoamerica - has made its major contributions to our global society and had its seminal thinkers.

* the italization is mine, not Sagan's.

[ForYourSmile]

I prefer cut my hair and to be Gandhi before that Che, thinking it better, I am a pacifist .

Tri-me - This terrible war of erosion Iran - Iraq was instigated by the Uncle Sam by the way in they had to go out of Teheran. It is sad story of frustrated ambition - they never allowed Sadam to win - and of mean revenge. Yes, Kursh, we know what power - or culture - leads this world and how it does .

A branch of this thread us went away towards the rapes. Probably because of this of the shock of cultures, BL, Edith .. that so much our friend likes .

We can never say that a person was raped for his/her way of dressing. It is something like to say that he/she was for being nice, pleasant, for smiled or for being weaker. It is the law of the strongest: the stronger has the natural right to rape the weakest. It is the real root of a rape, also that of a culture: intolerable.

A rapist attacks cowardly when he/she can. We cannot accept any other excuse and never blame to the victim.

When I see these so beautiful girls walking happy, especially at the beginning of spring, only I can admire and be grateful from very far for her beauty. As the nicest flowers. They do not make me suffer I nor feel either envy or I don't believe that they deserve a punishment for dressing this way, on the contrary .

[Tchocolatl]

I like this Greg. Those prejudices more difficult to broke than atoms according to the Bombing Man Number One Albert Einstein.

Kush, things are far from being mixed up, as far as I'm concerned. I never said that alchimists were the equivalent of modern scientists, but you know exactly what I said and Carl Sagan seems to do the same (please note that Newton is on this list). In fact, he says exactly what I said, only in a more mysterious manner than I did.

What do you mean FYS? What is a cliche? There was no invasion of Spain by the Arabs? The Arab culture did not have any influence all those years? Tell me, please.

To measure if we are more or less barbarian then before, whe have to know about History. History is the memory of humanity. Then we have to be able to process the information the memory provides.

You already know that this hatred thing, I think that it is the beginning of the most dirty problems.

Well, Tri-me, this idea of a weapon market is not new, I mean it is not the first time I hear about it. Very sad. Very sad. I just don't know what to say, 'cause it is behond my... I mean I am such an ordinary person that only want to lead a peaceful life with friends and family. I can't imagine doing some things for... what? Money? As it is a market?

I can't help but think that money is a symbol for complex human cocktails of emotions and more.

What is bad? What is good?

Some people say that if it was not for war, we would not have this discussion right now, as Internet is a product of the WWII efforts (as well as bombs A and H).

What do you think? Could we, western civilizatin, have discovered Internet and the secret of the atoms without wars?

I think so. I borrow the idea to... (I can not quote, 'cause I don't have the name under hand) Science is like a lady who is walkin in a field, and at some point, looking back and seing the path she made in the herds, would say "Oh! What a chance, I took the only way possible to reach over here".

By the way, do you know what the missionary has to answer to cannibals who... oh! just forget about this one.

[Kush]

Dear Tchoc.....since you have twice brought up Newton and alchemy...yes he dabbled in it....he was a child of his time. Alchemy is hardly his scientific legacy though...he was a genius obsessed with turning lead into gold. His legacy in theory of light, calculus, gravity etc etc. is what has survived and changed the world. there were a few serious alchemists who transcended that classification....the vast majority of alchemists were frauds and conmen ...medieval age "magicians".
Newton was also a rather weird and not at all a likable person. But undoubtedly one who changed the world. Not with alchemy though.
But I dont really want get into a war over semantics....if you insist on labelling him an alchemist, I have no problem with that. He himself would probably like that.

p.s. I almost never know exactly what you say.

p.p.s. When I wrote "things are mixed up" I was not referring to your post. I was referring to other issues that crept up in subsequent posts. International and local internet politics. In fact I did not respond to your post at all.

[Tchocolatl]

"In fact I did not respond to your post at all."

At this point I see it clearly now.

And it is clear that you are not responding to the last one also, as it is relieated to the first one.

I also think that you are not reading my posts or are not willing to think about or discuss seriously their contents.

Otherwise you would know exactly what I am saying.

There is nothing I can do about you lacking interest in subjects I am interested to. It is a free world.

At least, I hope that you will not take offense if I don't follow you that way.

[ForYourSmile]

Japanese culture has a tradition of hara kiri where the sense of honour is no less great than in Spanish culture that came from the Arabic culture when Spanish was invaded by the Arabs.

This sounds me as a funny cliche. Well, it's useful to remember that this Arabic culture stimulated by the Islam was better, technologically speaking, to the Christian one for its Aristotle base.

What do you mean FYS? What is a cliche? There was no invasion of Spain by the Arabs? The Arab culture did not have any influence all those years? Tell me, please.

Of course, the influence of the Arabic culture in the Hispanic peninsula is not a cliche. But, just for curiosity, what do you think about this "sense of honour is no less great than in Spanish culture that came from the Arabic culture" ? How great is the sense of honour of the Spanish for you? Tell me, please .

To measure if we are more or less barbarian then before, we have to know about History. History is the memory of humanity. Then we have to be able to process the information the memory provides.

Well, I agree with this, but really I don't understand why it's here. This days that someone see with distrust the Muslims I want to remember that the Arabic culture was the most advanced, especially in the scientific fields. They were invaders but not barbarians at all. The barbarians were in the north before to cross the lake, and after -well... this is a joke. For the bit that this have to see with me, my sense of honour grows a lot more. Maybe you're right.

[Jo]

With all due respect - and I'm willing to concede that there may be a language problem here and I've misunderstood your meaning - but in my book to refer to Einstein as the Bombing Man Number One is sheer blasphemy. Einstein's biggest regret in life was that ANY part of his research / work was used, no matter to how small or large an extent, in the production of a weapon as devasting and destructive to humans and to the environment as that dreadful bomb.

If he worked at all on the team responsible for splitting the atom it was in an attempt to prevent its being used in producing weapons of war.

The poor man must be shuddering in his grave.