LC's song on theCD "inspired by" Mel Gibson's &quo

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
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peter danielsen
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Post by peter danielsen » Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:10 pm

Congratulations on your surrender of self.
My mind refuses to believe. Offcourse you have no quarral with me or God, you're in peace.


"and now the wheels of heaven stop
you feel the devils riding crop
get ready for the future
it is murder"(Leonard Cohen)
Peter
Last edited by peter danielsen on Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Taigaku
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Post by Taigaku » Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:31 pm

I am suspecting sarcasm in that last posting. If so, that's fine.

I see from your profile that you're a student of theology. I wish you all the best in that endeavor, and I'm hoping we'll be able to have other discussions in the future.

I can also limit myself to discussing religious and other topics in an academic manner.. I find that interesting as well.

Or the songs of Leonard Cohen, which was what this thread originally was about.. :lol:

~Taigaku
Last edited by Taigaku on Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:23 pm

:D Hi Taigaku :D ! Great to see you here 8) .

I'm enjoying reading this thread with your and Peter's postings. I'm in no position to attempt 'serious, theological discussion' ~ however, a couple things did jump out at me.

When I was attending church, I was told on a regular basis that this is not what it's all about [italics mine for distinction and emphasis]:

"We have the hope that this seperation will cease, and if we do good deeds we can trust that God has worked for the sake of love in our hearts. But we cannot decide in an absolute way if the deed is good. Or indeed if we have gained inner peace or serious love for our fellow beings."

I was told that the only way to ensure against this 'separation' was to "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour" ~ that all the good deeds and all the love for other human beings counted for nothing, unless you did so. "Works without faith is dead" ~ yet, still, the deeds were necessary, as conversely, "Faith without works is dead."

For me, the "guilt" by which the Christian faith thrives, is a concern for me. As I look at churches' outside billboards, I see it in slogans, 'threats,' and cutesy phrases. Likewise, I am concerned, Peter, with your own, sarcasm which serves to attack Taigaku, as he earnestly attempts a serious and objective discussion with you.

~ Elizabeth
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Sat Apr 17, 2004 11:24 pm

:D Hi Taigaku :D ! Great to see you here 8) .

I'm enjoying reading this thread with your and Peter's postings. I'm in no position to attempt 'serious, theological discussion' ~ however, a couple things did jump out at me.

When I was attending church, I was told on a regular basis that this is not what it's all about [italics mine for distinction and emphasis]:

"We have the hope that this seperation will cease, and if we do good deeds we can trust that God has worked for the sake of love in our hearts. But we cannot decide in an absolute way if the deed is good. Or indeed if we have gained inner peace or serious love for our fellow beings."

I was told that the only way to ensure against this 'separation' was to "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour" ~ that all the good deeds and all the love for other human beings counted for nothing, unless you did so. "Works without faith is dead" ~ yet, still, the deeds were necessary, as conversely, "Faith without works is dead."

For me, the "guilt" by which the Christian faith thrives, is a concern for me. As I look at churches' outside billboards, I see it in slogans, 'threats,' and cutesy phrases. Likewise, I am concerned, Peter, with your own sarcasm, which serves to attack Taigaku, as he earnestly attempts a serious and objective discussion with you. This tack seems, in itself, to not be very Christianlike.

~ Elizabeth
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:08 am

For me, the "guilt" by which the Christian faith thrives, is a concern for me. As I look at churches' outside billboards, I see it in slogans, 'threats,' and cutesy phrases. Likewise, I am concerned, Peter, with your own sarcasm....
Don't you think you are contradicting yourself?

Thou shalt not be sarcastic!! :wink:
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Post by lizzytysh » Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:28 am

Not really, Kush.....I'm not studying theology, nor claiming to be Christian :wink: . Thou shalt, indeed :lol: !
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Post by bee » Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:35 am

Great read- thank u Peter and Taigaku for your thoughts, I enjoyed reading them very much.
I would agree with Taigaku, about the mystical experience with God, which always existed in Catholic Church and outside, it is the real reason for all of that "christian" thing anyway, without the very central point Taigaku is talking about- than Christianity would be just another big fuss about morals and morality, when in the very essence in the revelations of Christ is not what he says, but what He did. He says- I'm the Door- trough me,,, that is the key which has been lost in the mystical sense for generations of Christianity.
Peter, are u familiar with Emanuel Svedenborg?
Yes, Taigaku, besides Meistar Erkhard, don't forget John of the Cross, Theresa of Avile, St.Clara+St.Francis (the best friendship in the fire of the Holy Spirit).
Lizzy, I understand what u mean about the people who say that one needs to be saved, the problem with that is,~ that many of them, who have that realization, that they have been saved, after a while start thinking that they are the only ones God loves, and everybody else just sucks for being a bad bad sinner. In facto, they just made the first step, but they think that they are at the end of the road, marching straight into the glory (they are at the end, but not into glory). Many of them become cold as ice because of arrogance (inside) but outside are all smiles and sweet words about Jesus etc.
So, that "salvation" idea becomes like a trap for many, well, I don't want even talk about that.
Seems to me, there are many traps anywhere, :( :evil:
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Epurcelly
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Post by Epurcelly » Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:40 am

There are traps inside the song,
there are traps inside the song,
there are traps inside us all...
ep
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peter danielsen
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Post by peter danielsen » Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:04 pm

Dear Elizabeth and the rest of you brothers and sisters

You are guilty in an absolute way. Thats what Jesus said in the sermont on the mount. And in christ you are at the same time forgiven in an absolute way. As to sarcasm, which also seems to be one of your concerns let me quoto the old scripture(Im sorry all, it is not one of the much deeper secterian books, so narrowminded excluded by the powerful church because it offered the real truth by pointing to salvation through the navel of every person):
"And behold, one came up to him saying, "Teacher, what good deeds must I do, to have eternal life?" and he said to him "Why do you ask me about what is good: if you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which?" and Jesus said, "You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultary, You shall not steal, you shal not bear false witness, Honer your father and mother, and, You shal love your neighbor as yourself". The young man said to him, "all these I have observed; what do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "if you would be perfect, go sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have a tressure in heaven and come and follow me." When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possesions. And Jesus said to the desciple, "truly I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciple heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who can then be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"


As to the idea that it is what Jesus did and not what he said which is the important another small piece(again Im sorry for my lack of wide reading):
The passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found those who were selling oxen sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers at their business. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons , "Take this things away; you shall not make my fathers house into a house of trade. His disciples remembered that is was written, "Zeal for thy house will consume me".

These were the words
meditate on them if you will


Peter
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:40 pm

Yes, Bee ~ you've stated that scenario/dilemma very well. Those people give Christianity a bad name, as those attitudes seep out through the veneers, regardless. So easy to tell the ones who are in that 'space' and those who aren't?

I remember attending a church nearby, and then not going anymore due to all his red-faced, sweating yelling. When I saw them at the grocery store.....his question was where have I been, why haven't I been in church, with all the guilt tones therein. She said, "Hi Elizabeth :D ! How are you? Have you been okay? It's great to see you!" Guess which one I didn't mind running into when I was out, and would feel inclined to return because of. I know it's about G~d and not the people in the church, but people are kidding themselves if they think all of that has no impact.

Peter ~ I just can't accept the absolute guilt theory, and if I did, that the only way to absolve it is through one, restricted route only.

~ Lizzy
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peter danielsen
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Post by peter danielsen » Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:19 pm

Hi Liz

There is no one route that man can locate in existence and follow. Their is no justifiable ethics wich will lead you to heaven. Every attempt to be reach goodness is bound to fail. This is the new testament claims that God knows. Therefore he says that he as the son is the way, truth and life.
As our attemps to do good in every respect is bound to fail, we all have a sense of guilt. Maybe this is why you react against those who poke to your conscience. But God comes to mankind and say, :"I know you cannot actualize the Good, this is your nature, but I forgive you absolutely". Then you can live your life and try to do the best you can, bearing in mind that it will never be Ideal, and with the faith that you are loved by God despite every flaw.


Peter
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:51 pm

Hi Peter ~

I suspected that the concept of "you felt 'convicted' by the preacher's words to you in the store" would surface. That is not the case at all. It's not that he poked to my conscience. It's that I recognize guilt-based attempts at manipulation, and I don't like them.

His wife's demonstration of genuine caring about me went much further toward the goal he was directly trying to score with. She had a concern about me; whereas, he had a concern about the empty chair in his church on Sunday morning. He said nothing of me, and attempted no conversation after confronting me, with his 'demand' regarding my whereabouts. Not really even concerned with where I was at, only where I wasn't at! I could have been at my father's funeral and surrounding arrangements for all he knew.

I disagree with the premise put forth regarding our natures and how to go about correcting the dismal situation. It's not G~d that I have an issue with, but the specificity of how one must redeem themselves, via Jesus, and the specific wording required. I've been where you're at [absent the studies, but in the belief system], and even while I was there, I felt some and varying levels of discomfort with it.

~ Lizzy
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Post by bee » Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:16 am

Hi, Peter, really, u juss don't have a clue what lizzy is talking about :twisted: , u juss makes me mad, fuck off.
Lizzy talks aboy reality, so, be so kind~ don't give her a theory bullshit :twisted:
If there is nothing in your heart u can say, leave it , :evil:
bee
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peter danielsen
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Post by peter danielsen » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:18 pm

Hi elizabeth

I firmly believe that you were right in being upset about the priest obvious attempt to manipulate a bad consiounce into you heart. The basic guilt of which I am speaking has nothin to do with this kind of guilt. The way I understand the gospel leaves out any right way of institutionel worship. I dont believe that it is any matter of course that you come to jesus by sitting on a chuch bench, by walking ten thousand miles, og by any other deed. The priest of whom you are talking claims to be a judge as to whether God is in you life or not. The New Testament tells us over and over again that no human being can be such a judge. If then a priest tells you what deeds you have to do to be one with salvation, you could see this as a sign of him elevating himself to be an absolute judge. This is sadly enough rather human. We tend to judge and condem eachother, we tend to go for the power of counting some out and someone in. The want of this power is a part of sinfulness. In some respect I agree that mercy is about recieving the other person, even if we fundamently disagree on certain topics. This seems to be what the wife of the priest did for you. She saw another person in need for love and respect. To me the other person is always a mirror of our ability to mercy. But we do - sadly enough - often judge the other person. Even those who claim to be tolerant does this.

Peter
Last edited by peter danielsen on Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vesuvius
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Post by Vesuvius » Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:29 pm

Ciao Everyone!


Yes! Yes, I see it all the time here. All the talk about bad bad Christians we have met. We are the tolerant ones. We can tell others to f**k off. That is o.k. because we are the gnostic ones with the truth. Poor sweaty Christians with their Bibles.



Vesuvius
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