Manchester - a sideways view: Cohen vs. Dylan

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
Rodin
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:10 pm

Manchester - a sideways view: Cohen vs. Dylan

Post by Rodin » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:55 pm

Some absolutely superb stuff but.....let's take 30 minutes out of the show/let's stop the namechecking of the band/let's stop queuing for sweatshop T shirts at our age/let's slow some of the tunes down/let's watch the man with stagefright/let's realise that good as he is he is way down in the songwriting league from Bob Dylan.

Let's all enjoy but not go overboard. An awesome talent, a too fussy band that veers into cheese over eggs it.
Less is more sometimes
Discuss
Misunderstood
Steve Wilcox
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:31 am

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by Steve Wilcox » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:50 pm

let's realise that good as he is he is way down in the songwriting league from Bob Dylan.
I think maybe you meant - in your opinion he is way down in the songwriting league from Bob Dylan. Unlike mass and volume, there is no absolute way to measure the quality of art, including song. I feel the exact opposite way if I compare Cohen to Dylan - but that's my personal preference and I won't defend it because I don't even know why I not only prefer Cohen but I don't know why I don't like Dylan at all, when others do.

Regarding musicians being "too fussy", I always wonder why rock, blues and jazz fans need to hear imperfections to believe that it's real. No one would go to a symphony orchestra performance of Mozart (or bubble gum) and leave wishing the musicians were less accurate and had improvised more!

Actually, having seen three shows thus far, I can say with certainty that Larsen, Mas and Soldo all improvise much of their solos and fills as they were different night to night (and not always perfect either).
asta
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:53 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by asta » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:07 am

What is that person Rodin talking about? Leonard is Leonard and does things his way and the way that feels right and comfortable to him. Why challenge him?

If the writer (Rodin) performs, he can do things HIS way, Leonard does things HIS way, and has (more than) earned the right to - especially as all concerts are sold out and have almost entirely received rave reviews.
Leonard is THE most gracious man and obviously feels close AND TOTALLY RESPECTS his musicians and singing colleagues. SO OFTEN one goes to concerts and cannot discover the names of the band members or singers. Leonard obviously does not see his performance as himself and his 'back - up band' and 'back - up' singers, but an INTEGRAL performance as one (amazing) team. What extraordinary musicians they all are (including the singers)

Throwing 'negatives' or implied criticisms in his path takes away energy and will not make Leonard change his show, but reading such comments might take the 'edge' off his and the otherwise absolutely wonderful experiences for everyone. Lets all be grateful that this icon is touring again, looking like he is having fun, and inspiring so many people, including fellow artists, and attracting very special camaraderie and loyalty from his team both on stage - and off too. ASTA
Dream Warrior
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by Dream Warrior » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:38 am

"What is that person Rodin talking about?"

The (wo)man has shown him/herself to be an ass on more than one occasion in the last few weeks. S/he seems to delight in getting a rise out of people. Perhaps it allows her/him to entertain the illusion of significance in an otherwise dreary existence. Certainly hope s/he stays on her/his gray side of the planet.
riddler
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by riddler » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:05 am

this topic ain't giving me an erection.
46jimbo
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 6:17 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by 46jimbo » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:08 am

Dylan lost his voice years ago. He just gets on stage and croaks now. It's sometimes hard to recognize which song it is.

What has moved so many of us is the fact that Leonard can still deliver! (and he's got about 7 years on Zimmie)
roubiliac
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:13 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by roubiliac » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:00 am

To lighten this up I was at the Manchester show tonight and thought I saw these in the backing band;
Ken Barlow on Hammond
Vic Reeves on bass and musical director
Rob Newman on drums
Tim Booth on wind instruments
Harold Bishop on guitars
Mel Brookes on mandolin

I'll get my coat.....
Born With The Gift Of A G
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:08 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by Born With The Gift Of A G » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:57 am

roubiliac wrote:To lighten this up I was at the Manchester show tonight and thought I saw these in the backing band;
Ken Barlow on Hammond
Vic Reeves on bass and musical director
Rob Newman on drums
Tim Booth on wind instruments
Harold Bishop on guitars
Mel Brookes on mandolin

I'll get my coat.....
There's an essence of Yoda about Mister Cohen, too....
"Little lady.....I AM Kris Kristofferson....."
London: 10 & 11 May 1993; Manchester: 17, 18, 19 & 20 June 2008; Vienna: 25 September 2008; London: 17 November 2008; Paris: 26 November 2008; Manchester: 30 November 2008; Liverpool: 14 July 2009; Paris: 28 September 2012; Manchester: 31 August 2013; Leeds: 7 September 2013.
ManiSav
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:03 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by ManiSav » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:00 pm

Dylan a better talent than Leonard ?

Not even sure the comparison can be made. I love Dylan and Leonard, but they do different things for me. Dylan is certainly one of the great songwriters - maybe amongst the greatest ever. But so is Leonard. One difference is that Dylan is so prolific - over 40 studio albums and countless demos etc. With Leonard the less is definitely more. Also I can't see Dylan doing the 'white man dancing' during the Future the way Leonard did.

I'm just so grateful that I've lived at a time when I've been able to see them both.

If you havn't caught Dylans Themetime radio you should try to - its a real treat. If Leonard was to retire to do a show like that ...WoW!
Deena
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:24 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by Deena » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:14 pm

Dylan may also be something of a genius; I love and admire his work. But, for me, Cohen writes/sings directly from the heart. He is incomparable. He is God's Own Poet. He is totally outside the 'songwriting league'. (plus, of course, he has the gift of a golden voice...).
Overboard? Not at all. I'm beside myself with anticipation for tonight's Manchester show - I've been so excited it almost hurts. But the above have been my views for the past 32 years. I've only recently realised that I am not alone.
frgall
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:14 am

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by frgall » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:15 pm

I'm not sure why everything has to be a contest these days. Some people prefer Lenny and some prefer Dylan, they're both Masters of their craft, let's just be thankful that they're both still active and alive and have brought their respective fans great joy.

All I know is that I cried several times in Dublin at that show on Sunday, and several people were the same around me. I can only go by my own reactions, and that of my other half. It was spiritual, uplifting and joyous. I'm sure Dylan fans feel the same at his concerts.

As for the namechecking, did you not get handed the test on the way out? You weren't allowed out otherwise! :lol:

Seriously though I think it just shows his generosity of spirit and selfless character.
Born With The Gift Of A G
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:08 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by Born With The Gift Of A G » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:48 pm

Rodin wrote:Some absolutely superb stuff but.....let's take 30 minutes out of the show/let's stop the namechecking of the band/let's stop queuing for sweatshop T shirts at our age/let's slow some of the tunes down/let's watch the man with stagefright/let's realise that good as he is he is way down in the songwriting league from Bob Dylan.

Let's all enjoy but not go overboard. An awesome talent, a too fussy band that veers into cheese over eggs it.
Less is more sometimes
Discuss
Rodin,

Good news for you.

Having read your observations, I approached Mister Cohen's merchandising manager and he has taken on board your concerns.

Hence, in your honour, at future dates on this tour there will be official Leonard Cohen World Tour 2008 commodes and ear trumpets on sale at the merchandise stall.

Just out of interest, which songs would you omit to abridge the set list by 30 minutes?
"Little lady.....I AM Kris Kristofferson....."
London: 10 & 11 May 1993; Manchester: 17, 18, 19 & 20 June 2008; Vienna: 25 September 2008; London: 17 November 2008; Paris: 26 November 2008; Manchester: 30 November 2008; Liverpool: 14 July 2009; Paris: 28 September 2012; Manchester: 31 August 2013; Leeds: 7 September 2013.
amcgee
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Manchester - a sideways view

Post by amcgee » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:34 pm

Hi

i went to the gig on Saturday night and was amazed at his ability to sing was far better than Bob Dylan, I have seen Dylan 4 times(i am a big fan of Dylan but a bigger Cohen fan) and he was not able to hold a tune on 3 of the occasions, to be honest , on one of the concert's i left near the end as it was agony listenning to a legen ruin his own songs(seriously , he sang one song and it took me 2 minutes to figure out what song it was!!!).
You can't say that Cohen is better than Dylan, because Dylan is considered one of the best sing song writters of all time, his songs are legendary and will live forever, and appeal to more people than Cohen, while Cohen's songs and Poems will remain popular only amongst his fans. I do think that leonard Cohen is far superier than Dylan in his song, especially love songs, and certainly on poems, Cohen is streets ahead
Cohen however is a billion times better in performing for his fan's and his interaction with his audiance.
Somone shouted at Leonard Cohen on friday night, "Leonard don't wait another 20 years before you come and play dublin again, " Cohen replied " I don't have another 20 years"
Can you imagine Dylan's reaction to that

I have seen Dylan 4 times and in all the those times he might have spoken to the audiance at most on 2 occasion,
Leonard is a legend and would love to see him again.
amcgee
UrPal
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:43 pm
Location: Manchester
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Re: Manchester - a sideways view: Cohen vs. Dylan

Post by UrPal » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:07 am

If Dylan was busking outside a Cohen gig I might spare him some change, but when Lou Reed stands on a stage and says "we're lucky to be alive in the time of Leonard Cohen" you know which way the wind blows.
John Etherington
Posts: 2582
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Manchester - a sideways view: Cohen vs. Dylan

Post by John Etherington » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:43 am

I wouldn't accept that verdict because it came from Lou Reed. but because it's the truth! I thought exactly the same thing as I sat on Manchester railway station on Wednesday morning, after the Tuesday show. I also felt lucky to be alive at a time when modern sound equipment has made it possible to hear a concert of the perfection that we heard at the Opera House.

All good things, John E
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