URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

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UrPal
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby UrPal » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:10 am

I would suggest that on the benthamist principle of greatest happiness to the greatest number, the performer is fucked if he cancels. Any other thoughts would be welcomed.

Although I guess it depends who you're counting. Those disappointed no longer attending the cancelled gig with real monetary and measurable loss, the wider public (including those of the religion in question morally outraged by betrayal of the internal rules of the faith), the dead, undead and those who come after etc.

I suspect that as an artist who has drawn a considerable element of his artistic inspiration from the impact of the holocaust, Leonard Cohen might feel obliged to apply a different abacus.
Last edited by UrPal on Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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LisaLCFan
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby LisaLCFan » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:17 am

Steve Wilcox wrote:Actually, this whole debate would be a great one to send the facts to a Professional Ethicist for his/her opinion. ...What would an Ethicist respond?
I actually qualify as professional ethicist, having taught ethics at three different universities. The answer to your question is not straightforward, and it really depends on which brand of ethics one ascribes to. However, most ethical theories involve some notion of a common good and/or a sense of responsibility towards the well-being of others (in addition to one's own well-being). So, before someone does something, they ought to take into account the impact that their actions will have on other people (and on society in general). In general, most ethical theories suggest that, if it appears that one's actions will result in more harm than good (to everyone involved), and if it is not the kind of thing that a person would want to have happen to them (the "golden rule" is pervasive in many ethical theories), then it is ethically wrong.

This "wrongness" includes not only the harm that may come to individuals, but the harm to society. A fundamental foundation of our society is that people should honour their contracts, and in fact, this is a main tenet in almost all ethical theories. Our society in itself is actually a "social contract" in that we all pretty much agree to follow the rules and honour our contracts to one another in order to ensure societal stability. If people simply choose to violate contracts at their will (for whatever reason, without seriously considering and/or respecting the impact on others), then, this basic foundation of society could crumble, because contracts would become meaningless if people can decide arbitrarily whether or not to honour them or to break them.

And UrPal is quite right about Bentham.
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clive cass
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby clive cass » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:39 am

Very interesting discussion and the arguments are suggesting that the benefit of the majority would swing the right or wrong in their imp favour ie the concert dates should not have been changed and the original dates should have been "honoured"

Lisa refers to the social contracts and rightly points out that being honourable or carrying out our obligations keeps society working. However I would suggest that these practical actions only keep society organised and away from chaos.

In my opinion strong principals of faith and belief are what underpin society in the first place and Leonard has certain religious beliefs and stands by them. I am not saying that it is religion that is the bedrock of a good society but beliefs and the determination to stand by them that does.

There are never definitative answers in an ethical, moral or philosophical debate and the change in dates was always going to please some and upset others. Jews and religious people probably support the decision but have not expressed themselves on this thread and those affected By the changes are clearly expressing themselves and rightly so on this thread.

Of course like so many of us have said over and over again this situation should never have arisen.
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John Etherington
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby John Etherington » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:53 am

The opening track for Leeds and London has now been decreed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBpy791zFYk
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby lizzytysh » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:22 am

;-)

Wish there was [or were?] some footage of it.
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joyezekiel
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby joyezekiel » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:34 am

John Etherington wrote:The opening track for Leeds and London has now been decreed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBpy791zFYk
Good spot!
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Mary72 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:15 am

Anyone with a good spare ticket for sale to London?~
Much appreciated,
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anne alexander
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED-

Postby anne alexander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:10 pm

This is not a good reason to change a tour date. There is a contract between the supplier and the purchaser just as in any purchase of goods. Cohen should be paying all expenses incurred by anyone because of his change (just as Easyjet have done for me if the flight was cancelled). No difference. It is too arrogant to do this. He could have avoided this very simply, so why should a fan suffer. I am so disappointed in him. his ticket prices have annoyed me for some time. now this on top of it. Just like other top artists he is taking advantage of fans. I expected better from him. I thought he had principles and cared about people. His God would not like what he is doing. He is no different to other capitalists. He has fallen from his pedestal. I am now officially an EX-FAN.
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby anne alexander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:15 pm

Mabeanie1 wrote:
Zimmy66 wrote:Not your fault Jarkko, but I'm disgusted at this. I now have lost in excess of £400 for non refundable flights and hotel costs.... AEG, Leonard's management and - to a certain degree - Leonard should hang their heads in shame. We're only pawns in their game.
I agree Zimmy66. I will not lose money this time round but I have in the past (cancellation of Hawaii, re-scheduling of Verona for Yom Kippur - sound familiar?) so I sympathise completely.

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anne alexander
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby anne alexander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:21 pm

BrokenBanjo wrote:So sorry for those affected. We all know how expensive travel and hotels are, and this is totally inacceptable.
As this was totally foreseeable and easily preventable, I agree with the advice above for Brits to check out the Small Claims Court.
Even more concerned for people coming from abroad with even more expense and possibly no redress.



Yep. Under sale of goods its a broken contract. i certainly would be claiming. but I don't need to. I am not going, i am tired of someone charging too much,and swapping concerts. God would not approve.
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby anne alexander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:25 pm

Zimmy66 wrote:
LHHUNTER wrote:Seems to me that Leonards main focus nowadays is all about making money - perhaps it always was
Have to agree with you LH. Never thought I'd say that. Less than two weeks after being enthralled by him at the O2, I feel nothing but disgust at this wholly avoidable debacle. The whole thing just stinks.

" I never came all this way to fool you". Really?

Robert
Hear hear. and what will he do with all the money -he's too old to spend it. I have fallen out of love. He's laughing at us.
anne alexander
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby anne alexander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:26 pm

Caren wrote:I fully agree with what Gingermop has said.

An artist is not involved in the planning of tour dates and as I have stated above already Leonard cannot be expected to double check arrangements made by his management or whoever.

I also want to say that I am fully confident Leonard does it all for the music and not for the money. I saw his eyes during the performances since the beginning of this tour. And what you find in them is passion and pure joy for the music and certainly not greed.

I am one of those affected by the change of dates. This unfortunate affair costs me about 500 Euros which I do not really have to spare. Still I would never blame Leonard. I am not religious myself but I do respect his commitment to religion.


One word answer, NONSENSE.
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Rodin » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:29 pm

You're a grumpy little piglet this morning.
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LHHUNTER
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby LHHUNTER » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:07 pm

Sorry Caren wake up and smell the coffee. LC has disgraced himself over this. He must of known the tour schedule and approved it. He is fully at fault not AEG and he has let a lot of people down. Off now to find a haggis pizza :roll:
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Caren
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Re: URGENT: LONDON AND LEEDS RE-SCHEDULED

Postby Caren » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:28 pm

@LHHUNTER and anne_alexander.

I have said all that needed to be said. No use in trying to bait me into an argument here, or via PM or elsewhere.
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