Sun King

Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen, his work, this forum and the websites!
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ForYourSmile
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Post by ForYourSmile » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:44 am

Maybe parts of BL out of context can seem pornographic, but inside the work there is nothing free. Anyway it is not a children's book.

This WEB has free access to different type of persons and the webmasters have the obligation to make to respect the rules, just let's hope that they are not very strict :cry:

As we can see, Leonard Cohen has fans with different sensibilities in the moral and in the aesthetic thing. Each one can choose what more likes.

Politically we meet a great variety of positions. I don't know if anybody has worked studying this, but it is very odd.

"And ain't it fine, ain't it wild" This way it is easy to live passionate debates and at the same time we can coexist all.

The question of the official WEB or not, really, I cannot understand it as a problem.
Sylvia
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Post by Sylvia » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:04 am

Bee

These are customer reviews ... sometimes they diss something and sometimes they like it ... they rate the product ...

Sylvia
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl » Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:48 am

Bee, dearest, I am not destroyed. I'm happy that the info I gave out of a kind gesture was now used in a correct way - culture of internet speaking. This "file" is closed for me and I don't expect any kind of kind attitude from the part of those two who showed me for a while now how they don't really care about people. Bee, you could be a "player of the game", but you care for people. Not everybody does. That is life... I imagine that if G_d gives the free will, it is because it worths something, and who I am to
know what is good and what is bad? Only what I say is that I don't fit in little boxes, so good luck to anyone who will try to do it. The world is vast, the net also. 8) It is a free world and who knows? Just a comment, however, Jarkko is still the "shepperd" here. I think that he permited that I express myself despite T&J are his friends, and I thank him. I think that if it was T&J's forum, I would have been deleted for not being docile enough. I don't know for sure but this is what I think.

Dear FyS, good to see you here again! :D Well, my dear, it is not because I would not understand a problem that I think there is no problem. If you want go and do your own search about all this. For me, for now. I'm fed up. To now on, I don't help anybody unless I'm sure it won't put me in a situation I would not appreciate. Also LC has people to take care of his business. (hum).

BL I have this as a review, also if it interests somebody :

http://www.necessaryprose.com/acohen.html
Henning wrote:It's christmas soon and time to relax anyways !

http://www.tea-and-oranges.de/game/index.html
Nice diversion Henning! :lol: I would have say this is in a month, but maybe this year, you are here 'cause you want my list of giff for Xmas? 8) Last year I called you Grinch who stole Christmas for fun. You get really mad I think. Therefore, I dare think - I may be completely wrong, though, that it gave Pete the idea of his Xmist Carrol. I don't know if someone will run for another one this year. It was fun to follow! :D
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tomsakic
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Post by tomsakic » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:12 pm

bee wrote:Now you have the News section for yourselves, but who visits there? As Kush said, who wants to have a news on new LC posters, unless you are a teenage fan, or somebody of that nature?

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

That's why Forum and News are here. To have NEWS about Loenard's releases. This is *promotion* actualy. People wanna read news about new CDs, books, tours, fan merchandise.
Tchocolatl wrote:if it was T&J's forum, I would have been deleted for not being docile enough. I don't know for sure but this is what I think
Absolutely wrong. My opinion about forum politics is the totally same as Jarkko's.
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tomsakic
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Post by tomsakic » Wed Nov 09, 2005 1:22 pm

Bee, Tchoco,

I really don't understand you. What languages do we speak?

This file is closed to me also, but Tchoco - and I speaking for myself, not about Jurica's posts - I didn't insult you as near as you insulted me. And you still do that:
To now on, I don't help anybody unless I'm sure it won't put me in a situation I would not appreciate. Also LC has people to take care of his business. (hum).
Your insinuations are horrible. Next time you offer help, someone takes that offer and do the job with your help, be happy, and don't insult someone for wrong-doing before YOU CHECK who did the job wrong.
You didn't answer on any of my questions about your obsessions with me and Croatian site. You hurt me very much. You threw two pages of insults while I was offline. Personal insults, against me as the person, against my integrity, against my reliability. I told you I didn't write that word there, so I did not misuse your friendly advice. I checked who did it, as you did not although you had to, but you insulted me in unbelivable way. I don't care about your relationship with Jurica at all. As far I can remember, we two get quite good along until recently. You did this, and you didn't even care to apologise. I am waiting you you to apologise.

Dear Bee, I think Tchoco demonstrated herslef in worst way ever. Her reliability and friendshipness is lost. This is the closed file for me. Not only this file, many files are closed for me since this week.
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Post by Tchocolatl » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:11 am

Tom, my relationship with Jurica is the one everybody can read on this forum - no parts had been cut nor any of my posts have been deleted - how fortunate I feel about that, and moreover nothing behing closed doors. So you can make your own opinion about it.

As for the "file", it is clear like that in my mind :

1) Whoever had written a false info, the wb is responsible to see to it that correct information is disclosed.

2) For me this goes without saying - as natural as breathing. When one has to say "excuse me but what is this", because something is twisted when it should not be, what follows is usually a long even more twisted never ending story. I prefer the straight way. I is shorter and more efficient in regard of results.

All the rest is litterature. And I don't feel the need to apologize.

I have not problem to apologize when I feel I have to do it. It was a time, not so far, I even apologized without having the feeling I have to do it, but only to buy peace. I learned the hard way that peace is not for sale, and that it was not a wise thing to do to anybody in cause.

I acknowledge that all this may have been perceived by a sensitive individual as you are, (and as I am) as a rude confrontation.

I repeat that as far as I am concern, this file is closed, now, and may I suggest to let go some water under the bridges? In order to take emotional distance to all this. I'm confident that the different colours of the matter may appear more clearly in a little while.
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Post by lizzytysh » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:55 pm

Hi Tchoc ~

I can't find where it is, yet it's stuck in my mind enough to say something without locating it. I'll place it here, even if it's not the correct place. If you can point me to where the location is [if you care :wink: ], I'll copy-and-paste this to there, and then delete it here. It's where you comment to Bee to the effect of her actually caring for people, whereas [at least suggesting/implying that] Tom does not.

I've never known Tom to be anything other than an exceptionally nice person about and to people, a gentleman. Some people show their caring, up front, by being kind, respectful, and helpful from the onset. Then, it's not necessary to 'come from behind' with kind gestures or words. I'm not sure what has caused you to feel as you do, but I've always found Tom to be in the former 'category.'

Just had to weigh in on that :D .

~ Lizzy
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:21 am

Dear Lz, to tell you the truth I did find your previous interventions in this thread extremely heavy, and I consider that this one is the last straw.

No hard feelings, but I would prefer if you could stop suggesting/implying things and please stick to the facts. Thank you in advance if you do. For me this file is closed and I have no intention to re-open it.
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:50 am

Hi Tchoc ~
" . . . I did find your previous interventions in this thread extremely heavy, and I consider that this one is the last straw."
I don't know what "previous interventions" you're referring to; or, how they would have met the standard of being "extremely heavy;" or how my latest posting could meet that of being "the last straw."

My first comments were to and with Snow regarding 'his' thread [which is this]. My next set of comments related to seriously trying to understand what you were on about regarding Tom and his 'official/unofficial' site. I suspect I was not the only one [including Tom and Jurica] who felt confused by your allegations. I trusted in Tom's integrity, and as it turned out, with good reason. Still, I wasn't even clear what the issues really were and tried to ferret out that information from you.

IN the course of all that, you made some comments that were derogatory toward Tom personally, though I don't have time to locate them. However, it was still gnawing at me that you had, and that I'd not responded at all....so decided to say a few words on behalf of someone I consider a friend.

These are your words:
"I like to feed a thread with controversy. Shock of ideas is a good way to make the light come out of shadows!"
This is not what I like to do, though I'll enter into controversy from time to time. However, asking questions is also a good way to make the light come out of shadows, and that's what I did regarding your discontent about his site.

How my trying to understand the issue could be considered "extremely heavy" or doing what I did just now could be considered your "last straw" baffles me all over again. For someone who makes the above comment, and has previously admitted to playing devil's advocate, just to stir up controversy, these are some pretty short and heavy straws to be pulling out of the hat. Every single one of my "interventions" in this thread have been sincere.

Now that we're 'on it,' however, you've also said some pretty heavily unfair things about Jurica, from where I sit. I've also always found him to be a nice person, who simply has a different way of expressing certain things. [That's something you do seem to take into account with particular persons here.]

If I've suggested or implied things [vs. "the facts"] regarding what you've said about Tom, I'll locate them later when I have time [hopefully tomorrow], and will retract [but not delete] my latest posting here, as it won't be necessary, even though the content remains true. If I'm remembering correctly, I'll stick with what I've said. Can't do much more for you than that, Tchoc.

~ Lizzy
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:41 pm

Since I'm going to reply on the Tom/Jurica issue, I'll include what I never got to before regarding Snow, as well. Since his is much simpler, I'll go with Snow first. It's a clarification I meant to make long ago.

It relates to your insistence that:
"Lz, I never wrote, in the case of Snow, that popularity was the issue. I wrote attention."
Yes, you did cite "attention" as being the issue, when you said:
"For me I read 'I need attention'."
However, by the time I commented, regarding "popularity" being the issue, you had also added, in tandem to that original thought [italics mine for emphasis]:
~ "We notice you Greg. I like you. Really."
~ "the serial of delenquent posts are the result of the feeling of rejection generated by the thoughts Geoffrey has about the post of Jurica titled PLEASE"
~ "Now he amplifies this emotion by doing what he knows can lead to a real rejection"
~ "only this behavior is) this because he is appreciated, here"
~ "You don't need to do this to be interesting. As Bobbie stressed it very well"
These follow-up, italicized, portions led me to address the issue of "popularity" vs. simply "attention." You may not see it that way [obviously don't], but I didn't pull the notion of "popularity" out of the woodwork.

OK ~ as sometimes this site can disappear from its minimized position, when I have to pull up my work site after it's gone down [which it tends to do a lot :? :( ], I'll post this now, and return to Tom and Jurica, later.

~ Lizzy
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:02 pm

Hi Tchoc ~

You've slung some very, very heavy stuff out there regarding both Tom and Jurica. Still, you feel you have no need to apologize. Then, you 'correct' me, suggesting I have nothing that warrants saying regarding what you did here, when my act was to write something positive regarding Tom, after the [following, here] onslaught. In fact, I felt you had far exceeded the limits; yet, I had said little regarding that. When I spoke on Tom's behalf, it was still simply speaking on Tom's behalf, not ridiculing you for all you had said. Perhaps, what follows is or measures up to your idea of a "Portrait Of A Good Man," but it sure isn't or doesn't mine.

What amazes me is that after you've said all of these things and had your initiating premise proved false [even though one of your final comments here causes me to wonder what your own, real conclusion is], you still feel no need to apologize. That's your choice, but for you to respond as you have, to me, here [when I chose to say some positive things about Tom, and I include Jurica, now] is mind-boggling.

What you said about/to Tom [italics mine for emphasis]:

~ "my information was used to put what I think is some false information. I felt abused . . . Any lies are and an abuse" ~ implication that Tom may be a liar....feeling 'abused' before finding out the facts.

~ Jurica PLEASE was without any regard for people, so I understand very well that some people could been hurt and react to it by delinquency. It was as rude and selfish as a slap in the face, because one would have stand in the sunshine of another. The idea was good, though, but it could have been bring in a respectful manner, not in this arrogant tone. Jurica is Jurica he is like this, rough, as far as I have read his stuff, here. But you back him without a shadow of concern for people's feelings. ~ your final comment, alongside all that preceded it, is like saying Tom is an accomplice, which in criminal court, makes you as 'guilty' as the perpetrator.

~ "If your site and popularity are more important than Leonard Cohen works, and people" ~ a pretty low blow to someone committed to Leonard's works, and to Leonard for being Leonard.

~ "you who has the answer for everything in regard of Leonard" ~ a dig

~ "Or are you afraid to answer me?" ~ another implication of 'guilt,' as well as cowardice

~ "I find the false information you put on wikipédia far mor offensensive for Leonard (and Jarkko)," ~ concluding that it is false information, and that Tom exercises no regard for either Leonard or Jarkko.

~ "because official websites are considered more serious, and often the only reliable source of information, because there is a lot of false informations out there" ~ not only does this suggest that Tom may be posting false information, but for me, I have an issue, as Jarkko's site is far more serious regarding Leonard, with lots more up-to-date [and accurate] information regarding Leonard.

~ "Please, people do not disturb the order of the net by adding false information where should stand only objective and real ones. I don't have time to loose so don't have the readers of wikipedia." ~ what a 'warning,' and directed to whom[?], as though they 'clearly need' it?

~ "Now, I am more shocked about the lack of respect it is in my regard, to use a friendly info to put false info on the net, (if it is false) and in regard of Leonard Cohen - to put false info on a page about him on the net (if it is false) - and even to Jarkko which never claimed he maintains an official site, despite the fact that it is the most important." ~ I have to give you credit for having inserted from time to time, "if it is false," or words to that effect, but your overriding implications are that it is false, and that Tom is being abusive ~ of you, Leonard, Jarkko, and all of the Internet, who might enter wikipedia or his Croatian site.

~ "I just have a complete new opinion about Jurica and Tom - because they are harming themselves and their site by their own behavior. How reliable information on such a site could be? I wonder and audience will wonder also." ~ Conclusion formed; opinion changed. Charges of unreliability heavily hanging in the air. In fact, they are not harming themselves; but you were trying to.

~ "one must be all virtuous IN THE BEGINNING." ~ charges of lack of virtuosity

~ "Nor that if you want to join the lads in the lie (if it is) because they are friends of Jarkko." ~ an insult to them and me, and as if we have no powers of discernment or assessment unto ourselves, and are 'nepotistic' in our thinking.

~ "I even don't have the honour of an answer. This is real class." ~ new charges of lack of class, just because a response hasn't arrived on your own, time schedule.

~ "this to say, Bee, that I know your style, I like to feed a thread with controversy. Shock of ideas is a good way to make the light come out of shadows! 8) " ~ an interesting 'disclaimer' regarding yourself, amidst all these heavy [if you want to talk about heavy!] accusations, which at the same time, 'excuses' the 'style' of another, whilst attacking Jurica's.

~ "Serious reliable [italics yours, in this case] people are not suppose to spread false information on the net." ~ why are these presumptions of falsity continuing to surface.

~ "They can. But out is the serious and the reliable. The trust also." ~ now Tom is not only 'unserious' and 'unreliable,' but 'untrustworthy'?

~ "What will be the next step? It does not look very good." ~ though phrased in an atmosphere of uncertainty, you're already building on a false premise, as though it were true.

~ "I hope Leonard Cohen could have trustable people around him. Not ones who profit of his kindness to do any sorts of things..." ~ one erroneous and offensive conclusion after another. And 'profit'? How is that? Financially? Or, were you suggesting they 'use' Leonard for their own purposes? Still, you suggest that they are not to be trusted, an attack on both their motives, character, and integrity. It doesn't matter which it was, as all implications are patently false.

~ "In a forum, it is not so important to do foolish things, but on a site....In my eyes a site should be very trustable." ~ for someone who commands that I not suggest/imply things, this has really gone off the charts by this point, and long before, in fact.

~ "For Tom being good mannered... well, i wonder if he could be more easily influenced than I am. I wonder. Actions speak louder than words. Wait and see." ~ you are "wait and see"ing, yet still question Tom's good manners and his ability to refrain from being influenced.

~ "and the serial of contradictory posts of Tom, btw." ~ I don't see them as contradictory, at all. Again, this is a suggestion that he is not being honest and forthright regarding your accusations.

~ "I'm not embarass at all. Even in the case my assumption would have been proved wrong. ~ this loses me, as it appears that you're saying your assumptions were correct. It may just be your wording.

~ This "file" is closed for me and I don't expect any kind of kind attitude from the part of those two who showed me for a while now how they don't really care about people. Bee, you could be a "player of the game", but you care for people." ~ This is the quote I was looking for. Not only do you, again, slam Tom and Jurica, as not caring for people, but you compare them [negatively!] to someone else here, who admittedly has no qualms about regularly slinging insults and derogatory insinuations about people, and admits to its being all a joke and a game, as she shares your own desire for 'excitement' [for lack of a better word, at the moment].

~ "I think that if it was T&J's forum, I would have been deleted for not being docile enough. I don't know for sure but this is what I think." ~ another negative slam regarding what you think of Tom & Jurica.

~ "All the rest is litterature. And I don't feel the need to apologize.

I have not problem to apologize when I feel I have to do it."


*************************************************************

What you said about/to Jurica:

~ "Jurica PLEASE was without any regard for people, so I understand very well that some people could been hurt and react to it by delinquency. It was as rude and selfish as a slap in the face, because one would have stand in the sunshine of another. The idea was good, though, but it could have been bring in a respectful manner, not in this arrogant tone. Jurica is Jurica he is like this, rough, as far as I have read his stuff, here. But you back him without a shadow of concern for people's feelings."

~ "Jurica, it is not that I don't like you, it is that your evident lack of any sense of humour, and your judgmental attitude toward people that you seem to have in so low estime in your posts, they are all stupid, stupid cow, ignorant, not able to vote, etc. etc. etc. name it, that I feel helpless to communicate with you in a satisfaying manner. All I expect from you is insults and disrespect." ~ more 'lovely' things to say to and about a person.

~ "Nor that if you want to join the lads in the lie (if it is) because they are friends of Jarkko." ~ an insult to them and me, and as if we have no powers of discernment or assessment unto ourselves, and are 'nepotistic' in our thinking.

~ "I hope Leonard Cohen could have trustable people around him. Not ones who profit of his kindness to do any sorts of things..." ~ one erroneous and offensive conclusion after another. And 'profit'? How is that? Financially? Or, were you suggesting they 'use' Leonard for their own purposes? Still, you suggest that they are not to be trusted, an attack on both their motives, character, and integrity. It doesn't matter which it was, as all implications are patently false.

~ "This "file" is closed for me and I don't expect any kind of kind attitude from the part of those two who showed me for a while now how they don't really care about people. Bee, you could be a "player of the game", but you care for people." ~ This is the quote I was looking for. Not only do you, again, slam Tom and Jurica, as not caring for people, but you compare them [negatively!] to someone else here, who has no qualms about regularly slinging insults and derogatory insinuations about people, and admits to its being all a joke and a game, as she shares your own desire for 'excitement' [for lack of a better word, at the moment].

~ "I think that if it was T&J's forum, I would have been deleted for not being docile enough. I don't know for sure but this is what I think." ~ another negative conclusion/slam regarding what you think of Tom & Jurica.




I consider Jurica a friend, as well, and disagree with your comments and implications about him.

*********************************************************

I miss the regular input of both of these fine people.

Respectfully,
Elizabeth
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Helven
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Post by Helven » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:15 am

Dear Tom and Jurica,

I’ve read the thread and would like to say a couple of words about this squabble around your site.

Tom, you gave irrefragable explanations regarding how the site turned out to be “official”. I see no reasons to not trust you, and am quite sure that many people here would agree with me.

Though, even a person who made that mistake didn’t sin against the truth too much. As, working at the site, you had and have relations with Jarkko, Leonard and his official representatives, it’s almost official, indeed. And in this very case, calling it official or fan :? … it’s rather a matter of terminological accuracy – and maybe even one of the terminological cobwebs - which doesn’t bear on the essence too much. So, of course, everything’s completely okay about your site. And it’s quite evident to the most of people I hope.

Love,
TH.

P.S. Not so that I consider that you need my help, etc. Of course, you can perfectly defense yourselves. Besides, your work speaks by itself. Nevertheless, I wanted to “ventilate” my opinion since… well, it’s not so easy to ignore unjust accusations…
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Post by Tchocolatl » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:31 am

I began to read and stop, so anything you have post is lost to me. My gain.

I did stop because I feel I was watching vultures on a dead body delecting themselves, that disguts me.

If you what to continue, go ahead. Enjoy yourselves. Yark.
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:33 am

That's fine, Tchoc. That's your choice. I only needed to say what I felt I needed to say. Life is sometimes like that.

I appreciate what you've said, as well, Helven.

~ Lizzy
Tony
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Post by Tony » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:52 am

Is anyone really interested in all of this?
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