Sun King

Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen, his work, this forum and the websites!
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Snow (retired)
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Sun King

Post by Snow (retired) » Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:59 pm

Dear Jarkko,
I had a message in this section but it has mysteriously disappeared. Has the old Louis XIV syndrome surfaced again? May I beg the respect of being given a full explanation, and an opportunity to apologise if I have done something wrong?

g


PS:
Dear Lizzy,
I got your kind message - thank you. Will answer in a little while, either privately or here - but I have to go out.
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jarkko
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Post by jarkko » Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:33 pm

If you just wanted to test the boundaries you have now found out where they are. I have deleted and also in the future will delete all messages advertising porn etc. sites or messages with pedophile-type contents.

Last edited by jarkko on Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Snow (retired)
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Post by Snow (retired) » Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:30 pm

Would you be as quick to judge and condemn if I told you the deleted question was taken from Leonard's work? The answer, by the way, is an eleven-letter word beginning with 'b'. Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the original passage as proof because of it's "pedophile-type content".

g
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Post by John K. » Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:48 pm

I don't want to know, but don't need to know what this deleted post had to do with. Jarkko has been a hands off type of moderator and has done an excellent job. If he chose to delete something then I trust it was with good reason.
I love to speak with John
He's a pundit and a fraud
He's a lazy banker living in a suit

http://www.johnkloberdanz.com
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jarkko
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Post by jarkko » Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:58 pm

I don't care who wrote it (including young Leonard); if no frame of reference and background info is given it remains plain pornography for most of the Forum visitors. I'm not crusty with porn itself but if it deals with a child then it's something we don't need here. If you want to write an analysis of this kind of themes in the songs or novels that would be another thing!
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Post by tink » Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:21 pm

Jarkko has been a hands off type of moderator and has done an excellent job. If he chose to delete something then I trust it was with good reason.
I agree.
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Snow (retired)
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Post by Snow (retired) » Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:17 pm

Jarkko wrote:
>I don't care who wrote it (including young Leonard); if no frame of reference and background info is given it remains plain pornography for most of the Forum visitors. I'm not crusty with porn itself but if it deals with a child then it's something we don't need here. If you want to write an analysis of this kind of themes in the songs or novels that would be another thing!


Well, I thank you for your lesser aggressive tone. Leonard was 21 years, yes - a young adult. Much of his literal work, especially from 'Beautiful Losers' to 'Death of a Lady's Man' includes perversity. He is an author, a glorious one; in my opinion the most talented to emerge from the 20th century. A writer - if he truly is inspired - can put himself into, for example, the mind of a child pornographer - and this is what he did. Leonard writes the words, of course, but he is merely relating, very excellently, the thoughts of a pedophile - and there were several of them chasing that girl wearing the flour sacks. Jarkko, Leonard is a brilliant novelist - and I will not allow you nor anyone to totally negate his work as 'plain pornography' written by a 'young Leonard' - as if he didn't know better - as if he should be ashamed! If only you knew how much you 'guardians of beauty' unintentionally hurt Leonard. In this 'Comments & Questions' section you invite people to 'Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen and his work' and I asked one. You know quite well that you mention nothing about posts having to be accompanied by an 'analysis'. I expect no apology for myself - but one to Leonard would not be out of place. Finally, as you are so fond of deleting things, might it not be a good idea to one day go through your staggering list of '1738 registered users' and weed out those who've been inactive for a year or more? If it will give you pleasure, or make you feel more comfortable - then delete 'Snow' while you're at it.
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Post by tink » Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:34 pm

delete 'Snow' while you're at it.
I agree.
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jerry
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Post by jerry » Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:37 pm

So do I.
Poetry is just the evidence of life. If your life is burning well, poetry is just the ash.
Leonard Cohen
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Snow (retired)
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Re: Sun King

Post by Snow (retired) » Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:53 am

I wrote:
>PS:
>Dear Lizzy,
>I got your kind message - thank you. Will answer in a little while, either privately or here - but I have to go out.

Dear Lizzy,
I promised to respond. Thank you for your private mail, which I will not quote from in public. Thank you, too, for correcting me in another thread where I erred: "the attack on New York on 9th September 2001". My only excuse is that you Americans always refer to it as '9.11' - and that is a little confusing to some of us slow-thinking Europeans. Over here it's 11.9! I did note that one very sombre person has already taken my ironic response concerning the Nick Cage movie to heart; makes the effort worthwhile! Concerning another post; Yes, there really were two doctors performing 'Hallelujah' in church last Sunday - one singing and the other playing the grand piano. Everything I wrote was gospel - even their names.

I also received a copy of a post (from a very reliable source) you sent to this forum, purportedly deleted by the moderator a mere minute or two after it had appeared. You must have been one of the very few to have read my original question concerning a small passage from Leonard's earlier work. I can comment on a couple of points.

>I can't do anything about deleting or moving this post to the Everything Else section where, at 'best', it 'belongs.'

Well, as it was directly concerning Leonard's work it probably 'belonged' more where I put it - in the Comments & Questions section. Because 'Everything Else' is for . . . well, everything else? But you did not know this at the time.

>It's a question inappropriate for this site.

Unfortunately I beg to differ. As Jarkko wrote in his edited post: "This is supposed to be The Leonard Cohen Forum, right?" Leonard's work is riddled with obscenities, my virginal little sunbeam. If we are bound by a moderator to avoid the 'pornographic' bits then perhaps this web-site should be retitled 'The Leonard Censored Files'. His literary work is for an adult audience, and to quote passages at the risk of being banned from the site is absurd. He is not Donovan. This is ludicrous, and rather than pour Dettol over his work I'd sooner be booted out. You cannot invite people to discuss, ask or comment on Leonard's written work on the understanding that they keep to the wholesome parts. Please respect Leonard Cohen for the great unprohibited writer that he is, for it is this assset that makes him virtually unique and so very attractive. If you want children's books how about Enid Blyton?

>Not sure why you're asking it.

It was a wake-up call, the provocative beginning of a thread intended to eventually arouse interest in one of the best novels written in the past fifty years. I failed, and people call me 'traitor' to my face.

>Hopefully, you're not in a position of temptation.

No, I am no more a pedophile than Leonard - and he is certainly not. But like he said "You don't know me from the wind, you never will and you never did." If he is a pedophile I love him with equal enthusiasm.

>Perhaps, just to get someone to say something, which I've now done.

Yes, there is a little confrontationist in me that I cannot seem to shake off; and he does tend to make a wave or two occasionally. Yes, you did say something, but it was not in anger. You are kind, questioning and respectful. I suspect I am on the threshhold of receiving a life-long ban from this site, but please know that you are one of the posters I will remember with most fondness - and I mean that sincerely.

>Jarkko makes a concerted effort to keep this nature of material at bay

Yes he does. He is a good man with a genuine love for Leonard's music. But like myself, and most others - he is not perfect. He has done more for Leonard than any other fan, and I have always felt, during all the years that we have been acquainted, that we can speak our minds to one another - as real friends might. With Jarkko, perhaps moreso than with any other cyber contacts, I have learned that it is possible to have differencies of opinion without becoming eternal enemies. We will see if this continues to be true. You do not need to reply to any of this.

Keep shining -
g
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Bobbie
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Post by Bobbie » Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:40 am

Geoffrey (aka Snow) has been with us in the Cohen world since the beginning, since the early days of alt.music.leonard-cohen, when Leonard Cohen Files wasn't yet even a twinkle in Jarkko's eye. Geoffrey is a brilliant writer, and as we have all come to know over the years, very often a provocative one, in all the definitions of provocative. Over the years, his writing has instilled all sorts of emotions in me, made me laugh out loud, made me angry, brought tears to my eyes, scared me to death... made me seriously wonder at times, "what sort of person is this?" I guess if he were banned from the Forum (which I highly doubt) I guess I wouldn't want to come back either... not because Snow wouldn't be here, although I would miss him terribly, but because of what it would say about the atmosphere in these parts.

Bobbie
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Post by lizzytysh » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:18 am

Hi Snow ~

I've just now read all of this, as I've just now arrived home. I saw nothing, period, that would suggest your banning. That's not what Jarkko's about. My confidence factor is at 100% when I say there's no issue regarding your being here, from nigh into eternity.

I suspect [now, why would I do that :o ] that you were oh, let's say, 99% aware :wink: that, without placing this passage in proper context, or even quotation marks, or the Quote box, would, in fact, do what Leonard so effectively did ~ convey the thoughts of a pedophile. Not everyone is aware of Leonard's writing and, even though I read it a long time ago, I wasn't aware of its being Leonard's writing, either. However, he did very graphically portray the thoughts of a common pedophile. An indelible image, in fact.

Standing alone ~ absent the context of the book itself, wherein the character is already an established character, it comes across as a stand-alone message posted on a public forum for the sole purpose of titillation. That can lead to much confusion; as you are aware that there is a section for the purpose of discussing Leonard's novels. Hence, there was no reason to presume it was Leonard's writing, when you posted it where you did. Life-in-a-novel and life-in-real-life can make all the difference.

Leonard has, without question, very graphically 'nailed' a pedophile.

Thank you for your compliments, sincerely, Snow. I have no reason to suspect that you won't be here today, tomorrow, and the many days after. I've enjoyed reading all of your writings, and without having known you from the beginning of these Leonard times, I can easily imagine the reactions that Bobbie has described. This writing ~ pulled out of context ~ gave me more than just a bit of a pause, as I've worked with sexually molested children, and to a lesser degree, their perpetrators; yet, even if I hadn't, I felt concern for the impact this could have on those here who have been molested, or anyone's child reading here.

You had only very recently questioned the issue of content and censorship here. So, pushing the boundaries was not a surprize possibility. Fortunately, you're right that disagreement with Jarkko, and friendship with Jarkko, are not mutually exclusive. Likewise, I'm glad to know you, as well, and look forward to more of your own, creative writings.

~ Lizzy :D
Last edited by lizzytysh on Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tchocolatl » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:39 am

Bobbie wrote:I guess if he were banned from the Forum (which I highly doubt) I guess I wouldn't want to come back either... not because Snow wouldn't be here, although I would miss him terribly, but because of what it would say about the atmosphere in these parts.

Bobbie
I second that. I don't think that he should be banned for this.

I saw the original post, and I knew were it comes from and when I saw it, I did think that I knew why it was posted for. For me I read "I need attention". Nothing less nothing more. As I think this kind of attention should not be "rewarded", I let go, this morning. I'm not very found of victim's attitudes.

We notice you Greg. I like you. Really. But I hope you realize how unfair your provocative posts (like this one an others) are a pain in the neck of poor Jarkko who really does not deserve this. Not to talk about the horrible feeling I have that you take Leonard Cohen's work in hostage in order of dragging attention on you. You don't need to do this to be interesting. As Bobbie stressed it very well.

If it sounds like patronizing... well... It is, I guess. :wink:
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:51 am

Hi Tchoc ~

Snow's name is Geoffrey, not Greg :wink: . If you're going to give the attention, it's gotta be full; if not, at least enough to get his name right :D .

~ Lizzy
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Post by Tchocolatl » Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:10 am

Yep. Another of my numerous lapsus. I would like him to know that he does not need to do this and in the same time, I feel like - you know - that I fuel this type of behavior by giving the attention that is seeking with delinquency. So... No really I do not want to pay much attention. But furthermore I feel that the serial of delenquent posts are the result of the feeling of rejection generated by the thoughts Geoffrey has about the post of Jurica titled PLEASE. Now he amplifies this emotion by doing what he knows can lead to a real rejection, since the new Everything else section is in operation.

Really I feel that this kind of behavior is not necessary (BEWARE I did not write that he is wrong, only this behavior is) this because he is appreciated, here, people are writing it to him but he does not see (as you did not see my two "thank you", strangely enough!!!!) and have not less attention than any other member of this forum.

Now I stop before having to put YdF on the case. Mine I mean 8)
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