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Dear Simon ~

I must stand accused and convicted of being one of the types people you speak of, about humanizing their animals. I certainly don't do it to the extent that some do; yet, still moreso than some others. It seems, single people; parents [oftimes the mothers], whose children have left the home; and married couples, who have never had children, tend to do this more than others. I live alone, and have for a long time, so my pets are, indeed, my day-to-day 'family.' They are dependent upon me for their welfare, as I feed them, protect them from the elements, monitor and address their medical needs, and give them the love and affection that prevents them from lapsing into a dejected state, or even becoming feral. Unconditional love is highly valued, yet difficult to come upon. Although animals can't literally talk, they do communicate with us [sometimes even in speechlike ways]. Through this exchange of constancy, and with most people's pets being always glad to see them, having lots of affection to share, not lashing out with hurtful words, and rarely ever leaving them volitionally, most people are able to experience unconditional love with them. Tragically, it may be the only time in their lives they ever have. You probably would have to get to know them pretty well to learn that, though. It's amazing [and truthfully sad] to see how even beaten dogs will cower back up to their owners later, as though hoping that this one 'last' time of trying will maybe bring them a kind hand or word. There seems to be a shared need that people and pets have.

People are also prone to hurting other people in ways that most animals will not hurt them. It's the rare animal that will physically injure its owner, and people who find it impossible to feel physically and emotionally safe with other people can often feel that way with an animal. They have been proven to lower people's blood pressure, so are now being used in retirement and other facilities, where old people have medical issues. Being in the presence of an animal can also trigger and promote our healing responses to compromised physical conditions. Some prisons are using dogs [allowing some prisoners to do the basic training and care of them] to facilitate the prisoners' getting in touch with their gentler, kinder, more caring, and responsible nature. Some have never had to look out for anyone other than themselves, and they've gained a hard shell about themselves in the process. They've also felt that gentleness equals weakness, and the dogs have become a 'safe' place for those softer emotions to find expression. The bond that can develop between a person and their pet can be an unbelievably strong one. Sometimes the relationship people have with their pets can also interefere with the relationships they have with each other, and this is very sad, too. Please excuse the 'teach-y' nature of this paragraph.

What you say is true about how people feel so close to their own animal, yet are oblivious to or uncaring about the cow's life, and the conditions it lived in, prior to [and during the process of] being slaughtered for hamburger. That is true. People will also care about what happens with their own family members, yet not care about what happens to people in other parts of the world. I don't know if it's a socialization process that's resulted in that, or if we aren't structured to care deeply and be reactive regarding every ill in the world. I know many here do care about these 'other' kinds of things [and they do this in varying degrees], and then there are others who really couldn't care less. Unfortunately [in my eyes], there are those in the world who care more about inanimate things [cars, motorcycles, power, etc.] than they do for people. It's that full range.

My former husband [vegetarian] has two things he often says regarding his diet choices. First, that he doesn't like to eat anything that when he looks at it, it looks back at him. Second, that he doesn't like to eat anything that when he tries to get it, it runs from him. I'm, for the most part, vegetarian, so the hamburgers [which was only an example you chose] rarely ever enter in for me. However, it didn't seem that vegetarianism was your point.

I've seen photos and signed petitions regarding the conditions pigs are commercially raised in, and the vote passed legislation in Florida regarding the issue. Likewise, I've listened on NPR to segments on humane means for the slaughter of cows that are possible. The methods were developed by a woman who's autistic, earned her doctorate's degree, and cares deeply about animals. I also, as I drove from Florida to N.Y.C. last summer, stopped and took photos of chickens, in debilitated condition, crammed into transport cages on a semi-truck, being carried to slaughter. It was heartbreaking. I didn't eat chicken for a long time after that, but also must admit that I've begun again , for several reasons.

Love,
Lizzy

Note: For some reason, in this e-mail, as in my other long one, a phrase just seemed to get dropped. So, as long as I needed to correct that, I added in a little bit of info. Here comes the Edited line .

dear lizzy

thanks you for your reply, as usual very well founded and .....just good.!
my respect!

as we are both coming from tetarogens thread and as he is himself a fan of morrissey, "MEAT IS MURDER" as morrissey said.

what do you think?

Be sure to get the newly released digitally remastered DVD of Bambi to find out what animals think of the human race and why they run from us( at least according to Disney.)

Dear Simon ~

Thank you .

I'm not truly sure which you mean when you ask me what I think.....do you mean what do I think Teratogen's position is on it, or what my position is on it? As for me, I don't like the idea of eating animals. I've been round and round with people on it, about how some animals are raised for that very purpose [and never would've lived, otherwise ]; that the Bible says they are for our use; that they simply are for our use and sustenance, regardless of what the Bible may or may not say; that we need meat to be healthy; etc. However, when I mentally picture the trip from the pasture all the way through to the slaughter line and then the meat locker, ending up on the plate; yes, it feels like murder to me. However, if I'm at someone's house and they serve meat, I eat it and am grateful for their hospitality and the meal. The animal is beyond rescue, and I know that not everyone feels as I do. I don't preach my views to them. When I eat at a restaurant, I don't order meat; and I don't buy it for cooking at home. I have nutritional views on it, as well.

Love,
Lizzy

That sounds good, Lightning. I haven't seen Bambi in so many years, I can't really remember how it went.

i am a veterinarian, and every weekend i slaughter animals.
those we slaughter are rised on the same place where the slaughterhouse is; they are shoot on the field where they've lived all their lifes. we do all the work by hand; it is done by very experienced people who hardly ever make a mistake, and we work slow, exact and clean. not much machines; dirt is thrown away rather than used in any form. but when the clients come to get their meat, we are told: why is it so expensive? we can get three times as much in the supermarket.
and that is the problem.
it is alright to eat meat; children and pregnant women have to, otherwise they risk developmental abnormalities.
but you've got to care where it comes from.
since the Second World War, the price for meat has gone down even in absolute numbers, not only by measuring against the income. it has to be cheap and available every day.
in my opinion, if an animal has lead a good life, you can slaughter and eat it. if we wouldn't, we wouldn't have all those fascinating and diverse breeds any more.
but a farmer can't keep animals in a decent way from the poor money he gets from the customers. he's got to earn some money for his family, even though he mostly likes animals and is interested in thei welfare.
here in germany, where farms are supposedly smaller than in the states, a farmer has to have 80 milk cows or 700 slaughter pigs in order to survive from the money he earns. needless to say, with such a sum, you can't form any bond with one of them, and you can't offer them good living conditions.
in earlier times, a farmer had two cows or 10 pigs. he knew them by name and character. and people would afford a piece of meat for sundays.
so, if you buy meat, look where it comes from. take meat from small companies or organic farming (they have at least got rules for keeping the animals a bit better than conventional farmers - though not much better).
don't buy in supermarkets. this is the meat produced under terrible conditions.
anna

Most meat I eat is veggie, from Gardenburger or Boca.
These seem to me to be getting better all the time.

I also eat eggs. At a rate of about 12 a year.

(This is a nostalgia thing. There was a year I lived
on hams and eggs and English muffins. And ever since
then, every once in a while, I just need something-like-ham,
on a -real-, good egg.)

And this is the truth - and it just happened this morning
- I hadn't read anything in this tread,
nor did anything else inspired it,

--other than just standing there,
thinking how it's only just this once a year I do this.

Therefore I decided to part with the extra dollar
and get the "Horizon Organic Large Brown Grade A Eggs".

(-used to be able to get grade AA, AAA,- maybe even AAAA,
- but, alas, no more.)


As it said on the carton:

These Eggs were produced WITHOUT the use
of GROWTH HORMONES, ANTIBIOTICS or TOXIC PESTICIDES
Our Organic Chickens are Raised CAGE-FREE!
keep refrigerated at 45oF or below.

(which i should probably put back in the refrigerator now,
-having copied that from it...)

That's identical to the carton in my refrigerator, Greg. I only recently started eating eggs again. Need the protein and calcium. Was avoiding them due to the cholesteral claims. Then, those reversed. Then, night before last, I read something [from a legit health organization] about eggs blocking the absorption of calcium. Who really knows what's going on with all that? Yes, the meat substitutes really have gotten much better over the years.

I've been told that grass-fed, organic beef is not detrimental to one's health, and that it's all the additives, antibiotics, growth hormones, etc., ad nauseum, that create the unhealthy fat and the putrid meat that make it unhealthy.

Those conditions for killing are much better than most, AnnaEdith. In the fields where they lived, and with accuracy. It's true that it's difficult for farmers to live on their incomes, and many simply subsist. Here, most get loaded up, crammed into cattle trailers, and then herded into the killing lines. They're traumatized in the process, which is one of the things that the autistic woman was able to determine, and then devise an objective means for measurement of, their psychological state as they approach their deaths.

Love,
Lizzy

I've never really understood meat substitutes. I once went out with friends, and next door to our restaurant was a Vegetarian Meat restuarant. You can get fake meat that looks like real animal. Why?? If you don't want to eat meat, why would you want the 'replacement' to look like it. I have heard of Soy Turkey (or Soykey as I like to call it) and Facon (fake bacon).

Maybe someone can explain.

I also worked at a food standards agency, where occasionally we would be sent weird food products as part of assessment. One product I still have is a tin of "vegetarian duck" which is braised flavoured gluten (yuuuuk).

Anna, I think you are right - meat is a natural part of the human diet (in moderation) and if the animal is raised and killed humanely - what is the problem? We get our chickens and eggs from a nearby farm and we can see the chooks roaming about in the sunny paddock - I think they have a great life (as far as they can). I don't eat pork because of they way they 'raise' pigs, and beef only from local farms. I am happy to pay more for good quality, humanely farmed animal products.

I guess some of you are thinking now, how can they have a great life if they are destined for my dinner table. I suppose if I didn't sit in front of a computer or working in a kitchen all day I would be out there subsisting on the land and catching dinner myself, but lets face it - most of us would die in the wild.

Oh, and I love my dog! (And she LOVES chicken). WHich reminds me of that Cat Stevens song "I love my dog"

PS Lizzy - the meat would not be putrid, it would probably be shelf-stable for 50 years after everything that gets put into it in the US.

I love my dog as much as I love you
But you may fade, my dog will always come through.

All he asks from me is the food to give him strength
All he ever needs is love and that he knows he'll get

So, I love my dog as much as I love you
But you may fade, my dog will always come through.

All the pay I need comes shining through his eyes
I don't need no cold water to make me realize that

I love my dog as much as I love you
But you may fade, my dog will always come through.

Na, na, na, na, na, na, nana...

I love my dog as much as I love you
But you may fade, my dog will always come through.

Na, na, na, na, na, na, nana...

I love my dog, Baby, I love my dog. Na, na, na...
I love my dog, Baby, I love my dog. Na, na, na...

you're right with waht you're saying about the vegetarian meat substitutes: in my opinion, if you don't want to have animals killed, you simply can't eat meat anymore. if this is someone's opinion (which is perfectly ok), he has to take all the consequences, and not substitute anything.
on the other habnd, if you eat meat, you have to face the fact that animals are killed for it. you shouldn't close you eyes on that.
it's good to hear that so many of you care where their food comes from. something else i'd like to mention are the "hidden" industrial animal products: when buying noodles, for example, you can choose between such with and without eggs. guess where the eggs come from? certainly not from a farmer's 10 hens running around on the farm. those without eggs taste equally good, and you can be sure you're not supporting cage keeping. or when buying frozen pizza, think about whether those with meat taste much better.
concerning all the substances found in industrial meat, there are several reasons for this: of course, farmers who hope to earn more money (not for wealth, but for living) give subtances that make the animals grow faster. in germany, this is nearly completely forbidden now. then, with keeping so many animals in such a small space, they get very prone to illnesses. and an ill bull takes several weeks more till he's ready for slaughter. so illnesses are treated aas soon as possible, often even prophylactical. and finally, the hygienical demands are today much more stict than ever before. i sometimes have the impression they want to produce sterile meat. so, a farmer just can't afford having any bacterias or worms in his stable - he might ruin himself. whether this is good or bad, can be discussed: when children are raised without much contact to any dirt, bacterias etc., thei immune system gets very bored - and it looks for ways to amuse itself. guess what happens: that's where all the allergies come from (as they are exaggerated responses to not harmful substances)
anna

I like animals - I eat lots of them.

This questionning about animals is questionning our links and place in the ecological chain and how we are behaving in nature/culture regards.

Now, to eat vege could be tricky also 'cause the new genetic manipulations of the fruits&vegetables (without talking about the products to boost them, methods to grow them, the habit to eat them days and days after they have been put of the earth/tree - that ended with a product with less and/or few nutritive elements) that nobody knows the consequences in long term. ("The attack of killer tomatoes", may be not so funny some day, by nobody knows for certain, the short term is prevaling).

This short term view is messing also in all other fields of nature that we need.

So maybe it is this general principle to keep in mind, with our relationship with pets, food, air, water... other fellow human beings?

Although this particular debate about food, and all its details is vital (hi!). I'll let you continue. Cheers!

Hi Tchocolatl ~

Nice to see you over here, if only for a drop-in .

Now, to eat vege could be tricky also 'cause the new genetic manipulations of the fruits&vegetables (without talking about the products to boost them, methods to grow them, the habit to eat them days and days after they have been put of the earth/tree - that ended with a product with less and/or few nutritive elements) that nobody knows the consequences in long term. ("The attack of killer tomatoes", may be not so funny some day, by nobody knows for certain, the short term is prevaling).

You got that right, Tchocolatl! The genetically-engineered food is a very scarey thing and, unless I've missed an update, they are not required to tell you which is which, and they are becoming more prevalent by the day. The pesticides and growth hormones there are also just as scarey as they are in the animals. Someone, who a local cabbage grower offered some of his cabbages to, asked the grower if he ate a lot from his fields. The grower responded to the effect of, "Hell no. I know what I put on them." Someone I know gave me a cabbage from that same area [the roadside stand beside the field], and I could never bring myself to eat it. It sat in my vegetable bin in the frig [polluting the other organics ] until it wilted, and I finally threw it away.

Organics are expensive, but worth it. Even there, you have to be careful of the wording. Just because the word "organic" is used doesn't mean it's wholly so. The pesticides, etc. travel by air and to be considered 100% organic means holding to a very high standard. If you ever see an organic carrot vs. a non-organic one through the kind of photography that shows the 'crystalline' structure of it at the minute level, you'll become a believer. The non-organics are cloudy and chaotic in structure. The organics are crystal clear, and present in perfectly-formed, perfectly-balanced, fernlike, crystalline structure.

A garden of your own, with organic seeds, would be best....if you have the inclination, time, space [though it can still be accomplished with limited amounts of it], etc. Then, save the seeds to continue the process.

~ Lizzy

Lizzy wrote

A garden of your own, with organic seeds, would be best....if you have the inclination, time, space [though it can still be accomplished with limited amounts of it], etc. Then, save the seeds to continue the process

.

I would be interested to know if other countries have anything like the UK,s "allotments". These are small plots of land (owned by the local authority) that you can rent for a nonimal sum to grow vegitables and fruit. I'm fortunate to live close to these (the back of my house overlooks the allotments) and I have two plots. It is hard work, but a lot cheeper than joining the gym. There is something special about cultivating the land, planting, reaping and then............eating the fruits of your labour.
Rob