First Nations women

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Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

First Nations women

Postby Tchocolatl » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:34 pm

I find this interesting article.

https://thewalrus.ca/the-darker-side-of-leonard-cohen/

which deserves many other comments reliated to other subjects pointed in this paper.

But for now I would like to concentrate on only one : What is in the book is a symbol of what did happen to the First Nations. (all the novel is written in symbolism)
First
and Second.

What is happening now to the First Nations women, is by far worst than anything in the novel - and I'm glad that he had the Genius to have those people said themselves how disgusting this is.
:D
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
199Dan
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:52 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby 199Dan » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:55 pm

Thank you for sharing this must read article !
This can be a great place to start a much need conversation of the treatment of First Nations women and women around our world .
I look forward to reading the responces from this group.
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Nota bene.

By "those people" I meant the culs-bénis who find outrageous a work of art.
While doing these very things. Or letting them happen.

hypocrits or unconscious "good people".

And it is a real pleasure to witness them telling out loud the very nature of their own behavior. Admitted it, so to speak, no, much better, feeling it in their guts.

Leonard Cohen is a Genius. But I Wonder when he will be fully acknowledged. Probably not during my lifetime. Such a pity...

I guess when a majority of human beings will have reached a certain level of spirituality (or consciousness) ?

Which botanist will create a water lily after this natural born zen master ? Hurry ! :D
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:51 pm

199Dan wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:55 pm
Thank you for sharing this must read article !
This can be a great place to start a much need conversation of the treatment of First Nations women and women around our world .
I look forward to reading the responces from this group.
You know, I know... everybody - OK-OK-OK... that this is not the place to have such a conversation, my dear. :D

This article is worth the reading, though, I do believe, because Leonard Cohen is surfing on so many human and crucial questions for societies and beings and their perrenial and happyness. Like having a healty holly sexuality. Among others major subjects.

This said, may you enjoy with the soulmate of your heart, this "mate song" of Who by Fire. :D

Have fun!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4FbYPVs0Us
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
199Dan
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:52 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby 199Dan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:53 pm

I trust the monitors would see to it that the post is posted in the correct spot.
But, I am only human.
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby Tchocolatl » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:06 pm

Well. It's a comment.
And you seem to have questions about it.

We are all only human, Leonard Cohen ahead of us.

Amen.

N.B. : By "culs-bénis" I did not meant any religious persons. I do believe my religion was and still is more helpful to me, than the contrary. I am one of those. :D
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Cate
Posts: 3460
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:27 am

Re: First Nations women

Postby Cate » Fri May 04, 2018 3:30 pm

Tchocolatl wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:34 pm
I find this interesting article.

https://thewalrus.ca/the-darker-side-of-leonard-cohen/

which deserves many other comments reliated to other subjects pointed in this paper.

But for now I would like to concentrate on only one : What is in the book is a symbol of what did happen to the First Nations. (all the novel is written in symbolism)
First
and Second.

What is happening now to the First Nations women, is by far worst than anything in the novel - and I'm glad that he had the Genius to have those people said themselves how disgusting this is.
:D
Thanks for posting the article T, it's a good article and she has some great points though I think that she is also a bit harsh. Not to say that the book isn't obscene and offensive but but that's art for you - not everything in this world (or the mind) is sunshine and roses. I don't know if Leonard was a genius (quite possibly) but I think that you're right that he was well ahead of the game with recognizing what was going on.

The article - I don't think that I read the symbolism as deeply as the author, she said that the first nations womens bodies were a symbol for 'intercultural violence'. I hadn't gotten quite there in my thinking but now that I've read it I can see it that way. My first read of it was at 17 and I felt like Cohen was asking some questions in his book and kind of playing out some scenarios to figure out possible answers. One of the questions that I read in the book is - How do humans do such horrible things to one another?

The scene that the article author mentions where the priest is molesting Catherine is a good example. Whether intentional or not Cohen brings the reader in as both victim and perpetrator. I totally get why this offensive to the article writer as he writes about this abuse of Catherine in a humorous titilating way. It feels uncomfortable.
The thing is, he wrote this in 1964! Children were still being snatched to live in the residential schools where they faced many forms of abuse often at the hands of priests and nuns. What he wrote about happening to Catherine was was still happening when he wrote this book. I don't know what kind of public discussion was happening at that time in Canada but I'm pretty sure that Cohen was talking about an open secret that was to taboo to mention.

The rape of Edith is even more disturbing, especially 'I's reaction to it (he likes to fantasize about it) but again 1960 Leonard is talking about something very current. The men who chase her down see her as something 'other'. It's only when she pees herself in fear that some of their humanity kicks in. For non-Canadians who might read this, we have a huge problem in Canada with First Nation women going missing or being murdered at alarming rates and only now are authorities taking action.

at the end of her ariticle the author says "For these reasons, Beautiful Losers will likely continue its slide into the dustbin of history ..."

I hope not. This book is as beautiful as it is ugly, there are so many amazing and wonderful passages and yah it's has a lot of fucked up parts in it but this world can be pretty fucked up at times and real peoples thinking can be pretty fucked up just like "I''s thinking is pretty fucked up. (sorry for all the 'fucked ups' it's just a fun phrase to type)


(I wish Greg was here to respond to your post T. - he would have had something very thoughtful response to it and I bet a unique perspective)
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon May 07, 2018 6:44 pm

:D

A genius of 25 may be really not the same person as a zen monk in is eighty. Obvious isn't it ?

Nevertheless, I encourage anyone to explore the subconcious mind and its language. And the Depht Psychology in general. Thouroughly.
To read about History of Canada a bit, and not only the official politicly correct versions.
To explore anthropology a little. And sociology.
And to plundge into the history of american lit.

As an appetizer.

Then, to reread the novel (don't puke) 8)

To begin with.

:)

After this, maybe, maybe, someone will find the courage to go further and analyse thoroughly this peace of art. How many people would be needed on the team ? I wonder.



P.S. Always nice to read from you Cate ! :D
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
SoFree
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:37 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby SoFree » Mon May 14, 2018 12:39 pm

will know!)
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: First Nations women

Postby Tchocolatl » Thu May 17, 2018 3:58 pm

First Nation Women
So free
Will know


That someone cares when nobody did.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers

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