News Story

Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen, his work, this forum and the websites!
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:55 pm

WO- i came across this little article of Msgnr. Lozrenzo Albacete- there are some points, rather very important- we've touched the subject slightly in one discussion with Peter Danielson-

"When the early Christians entered into religious world of Roman Empire, they associated themselves intelectually with its political critics. "Religion" at that time, was not considered as a source of truth about reality, but as the realm of poets and those who sought ways of interpreting the rites, myth, and symbols that expressed the people's sense of identity, meaning, and purpose.
"Rationality", the way to discover "the truth" of the universe, had nothing to do with religion. Christianity, of course, saw itself as the fulfillment of human religious needs, but only because it was the way of grasping the "truth". That is why the early Christian thinkers were considered "atheists" allies of the rationalists who sought to "demythologize" religion.
Christians today face a similar situation. Christianity is "acceptable" as a private religious option, as a way of expressing and dealing with the omotions and conflicts that characterize human "interiotity". It is even possible to accept Christianity as a way of dealing with a "Mystery" that transcends human life, as long as it is seen as one of many possible ways of responding to this Mystery.
For others, Christianity is valid as a moral force for good in society, as an inspiration for human creativity and works of compassion. Problems arise when Christians insist- in the words of Tertullian- that Christianity is the following of Someone who did not come to teach us an ethical social behavior, but the Truth of God's creation.
This is what provokes opposition to Chriostianity, from its beginning until today. This claim of Christianity is seen as a temptation to intolerance and social divisiveness, all the more so when "truth" is defined not by reason but by Power.
It is absolutely essential not to reduce the Christian message to the ethical system or a way to express the perception of transcendence, of , of mystery, of the "unknown". The Gospel is not merely a proposal about "values" to guide our lives. "
There is more on that, but I thougt it was very strange to come to think about it since Peter, Vesuvius, I, Lizzy- all of us were talking about it in some ways.
at the end he says-" The truth of reality is a Person, discovered not by arguments, but trough the event of a human encounter in which all desires of the human heart are fulfulled. It is this that prevents the Christian claim from being an intolerable presumption. When we encountered Christ, we discovered ourselves as human".
Shalom- WO- :D
bee
jmflash
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:09 am

Post by jmflash » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:17 am

Bee says: "one note about israel and the arab world. israel with a jewish population of 5.500.000 has 10 times the number of scientists that the lands of alaaaaah have around it. maybe that is the reason that israel constantly kicks muhammeds ass , will so in the future."

I applaud you Bee for saying what everyone here believes, but what no one wanted to say. Everyone was so appalled by a Bin Laden quote but not one person objected to this. It is finally clear why you support the US. It has nothing to do with Soviet atrocities, it is simply because the US gives support to Isreal. Don't think for one second that because Leonard Cohen was Jewish that he supports genocide and murder. Also, if you are under the impression that I am Muslim you are incorrect. Bee, you are free to believe what you want, and to do whatever you wish to do, I offer no protest to you. But I just have to say, go ahead and kick those "sand niggers" asses, just don't be suprised if they kick back.
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:17 am

JmFlash-
"Don't think for one second that because Leonard Cohen was Jewish that he supports genocide and murder"
yeh- perhaps yo perception is, that he would rather support the evabraun boy herr ben laden's take - that Israel has no right to exist and has to be destroyed, also, the obligation of every muslim would be to kill as many jews as they could- i don't think so :(
"impression that I am Muslim you are incorrect. Bee, you are free to believe what you want," -
JmFlash- the talk is not about beliefs - but history and facts, nothing more, may be some laugh now and than :)
don't , please do not push the "nigger " agenda, u could make me so mad, i could start posting 2 foot long posts on the subject, everybody will get mad at me, when in fact- u should be blamed for that :D
love :)
bee
bo fisher
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:06 pm

Post by bo fisher » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:02 pm

It'd be sad if it were'nt so funny, It'd be funny if it were'nt so sad.

--Lonesome Bob
Everyday's a lifeboat
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25387
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:45 pm

Not everyone, JM :cry:

What do macho stances have to do with peace? When will the madness end :cry: ? Leonard meant it when he said, "Love's the only engine of survival."
jmflash
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:09 am

Post by jmflash » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:29 pm

I don't sympathize with Bin Laden, I simply understand how someone could do the things he does. I don't take either side in the Isreal-Palestine conflict. If other governments commit worse atrocities than the US, that still does not give the US the right to commit atrocities.

The lethal impact of sanctions had been compounded by the deadly war residues. The allied use of a million DU munitions, known to produce radioactive contamination, was associated with soaring cancer rates and fetal deformities among the Iraqi civilian population. An epidemic of leukemia and stomach cancer claimed the lives of thousands of Iraqi civilians who lived near the former war zone, including children not even born when hostilities ended. The epidemic of leukemia would have been treatable with the drugs that were denied to Iraqi civilians by sanctions. Instead thousands of children bled to death. Moor Mohammed Younis, a 2 year old, had one eye removed, and then the other, to stop cancer from reaching her brain. Ahmed Fleah bled from his mouth, eyes, ears, nose, and rectum as he took 2 weeks to die.

There was an astonishing rise in congenital abnormalities. Dr. Jenan Ali, working in Basra, photographed full-term babies to record the ‘bunch of grapes’ syndrome. Some of the babies had no brain, no face, no eyes; others had limbs fused together. Dr. Ali showed the British journalist Felicity Arbuthnot a tiny baby that had no genitalia, no eyes, nose, tongue, hands or oesophagus; and its twisted legs were joined by a thick web of flesh from the knees. Ali said that many babies were being born in such a condition, and that the radiation levels in the region were alarming.

The typical question given to doctors by pregnant mothers is, ‘Is it a boy or girl?’ The typical question was transformed in Iraq to, ‘Is it deformed or not?’

Dr. Haifa Ashahine observed, of one newborn baby: “See, the spine ends here. There is no head.” He added speaking of other newborns: “If it is not a child without a brain, then maybe it’s one with a giant head, stumpy arms like those of a thalidomide victim, two fingers instead of five, a heart with missing valves, missing ears.”

On February 13, 2000, the Bishop of Coventry, England, recalled the ‘hideous physical deformities’ that he had seen in Iraqi hospitals. Many of the children were suffering from infantile leukemia: “There is very strong evidence to suggest that all this was caused by the depleted uranium in our weapons.”

“Trying to Comfort The Wounded” Shane Claiborne of Philadelphia, Penn., from a Christian Peacemaker Team that visited Iraq said that his most striking memory was a conversation he had in the trauma ward of the Al-Yarmouk Hospital in Baghdad. Shane spoke with a father tending his son, whose legs were filled with shrapnel. ‘Two days ago, my son was walking down the streets,’ cried the father. ‘Now, he is an invalid. If this is liberty, I don’t want it! If this is democracy, keep it to yourself!’

Dr. Kahlim is a brain surgeon at Mosul General Hospital- “We are a rich country, but where is our money? We have oil, but we have no ability to use our oil-the money from our oil-to help ourselves. You know, for us there is no difference between the American occupation and the regime of Saddam. Previously we were in a big prison; now we are in a bigger prison....We want to live-just to live. We want no more than that.” (Mary Trotochaud, AFSC Iraq Country Representative, June 2003)

Rami, 36 years old, with nine years of higher education said- “I realize that America did not come here to rid us of Saddam- they came for our petrol. They used slogans to justify their actions.” (Rick McDowell, AFSC, June 2003)
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25387
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh » Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:41 pm

If other governments commit worse atrocities than the US, that still does not give the US the right to commit atrocities.
I agree, JM.

Likewise, with the scenarios you've referenced and the quotes you've provided. Having heard these and very similar ones for a long time, it was extremely hard to consider 'going in' to Iraq. The bottom line is my agreement with Rami.
Rami, 36 years old, with nine years of higher education said- "I realize that America did not come here to rid us of Saddam- they came for our petrol. They used slogans to justify their actions." (Rick McDowell, AFSC, June 2003)
As I fall in love again; listening to The Future cd, while trying to concentrate on my work....the fullness of the quote seems so appropos for here:
I've seen the nations rise and fall. I've heard their stories....heard them all. But, love's the only engine of survival.

. . .the heart has got to open / in a fundamental way. . .

~ Leonard Cohen
Respectfully to all concerned, including you, of course, dear Bee, with whom I happen to disagree on these matters,
~ Elizabeth

[My apologies to Leonard if I use his words in ways unintended.]
User avatar
peter danielsen
Posts: 917
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm

Post by peter danielsen » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:40 pm

"loves the only engine of survival, "

and

"the heart has got to to open in a fundamentel way"


The point of Leonard Cohen song is offcourse accactly that this is not a love that humans can acchieve. When Cohen speak about the stories that the nations have told, nations is another word for pagans. The subject of the text is God.

Peter
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:16 am

dear Peter,
if that was true, than, why would Christ bother coming among us as a human? what would be the point?
"that this is not a love that humans can acchieve."
bee
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25387
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh » Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:31 am

That was one of the things I was thinking, too, Bee. Peter ~ I would feel so much better about what you've said if you'd prefaced it with something to the effect of, "My interpretation is....." That is what you meant, right :wink: ? Are you suggesting that the only way a heart can open is through God/Jesus?
User avatar
Joe Way
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Friday's Child

Post by Joe Way » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:43 am

Hello everyone, I generally stay far, far away from threads that are religious or political, but I had to contribute to this as I find it so germane to the topic.

As many of you know, and is evident by my choice of signature, that I really appreciate the work of W. H. Auden. One of my favorite poems of his is called, "Friday's Child."

The subject is Dietrich Bonhoeffer who was a Lutheran minister in Germany during WWII. He became increasingly disturbed by the direction, not only of Germany, but of the Lutheran Church during the war. He came from what I would call a "scientific" family in that religion was not a priority in his youth and his parents and siblings were scientists. It is unusual that his interests were drawn toward the theological, but his family seemed to support him in this. He was eventually drawn into the plot to assasinate Hitler, was arrested, and sent to prison. Just day's before Hitler did himself in, he was hanged in the prison of Flossenburg.

If you have the chance, look him up and, in particular, read about his last days, and how they brought him to his hanging nude and how he spent his final moments on his knees still wondering if he had made the right choice to be on the side of the murderers of Hitler. What a choice he had and made-I've never been comfortable with a murderer and in the final ending I still don't know if he made the right choice. Anyway, here is the poem.

Friday's Child


(In memory of Dietrich Bonhoeffer,
martyred at Flossenb?rg, April 9, 1945)


He told us we were free to choose
But, children as we were, we thought---
"Paternal Love will only use
Force in the last resort

On those too bumptious to repent."
Accustomed to religious dread,
It never crossed our minds He meant
Exactly what He said.

Perhaps He frowns, perhaps He grieves,
But it seems idle to discuss
If anger or compassion leaves
The bigger bangs to us.

What reverence is rightly paid
To a Divinity so odd
He lets the Adam whom He made
Perform the Acts of God?

It might be jolly if we felt
Awe at this Universal Man
(When kings were local, people knelt);
Some try to, but who can?

The self-observed observing Mind
We meet when we observe at all
Is not alariming or unkind
But utterly banal.

Though instruments at Its command
Make wish and counterwish come true,
It clearly cannot understand
What It can clearly do.

Since the analogies are rot
Our senses based belief upon,
We have no means of learning what
Is really going on,

And must put up with having learned
All proofs or disproofs that we tender
Of His existence are returned
Unopened to the sender.

Now, did He really break the seal
And rise again? We dare not say;
But conscious unbelievers feel
Quite sure of Judgement Day.

Meanwhile, a silence on the cross,
As dead as we shall ever be,
Speaks of some total gain or loss,
And you and I are free

To guess from the insulted face
Just what Appearances He saves
By suffering in a public place
A death reserved for slaves.

1958
"Say a prayer for the cowboy..."
User avatar
peter danielsen
Posts: 917
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm

Post by peter danielsen » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:23 pm

Lizzy

Off course all of my postings reflect my point of view, what else. Like anyone else I could be wrong. If we have to start every sentence with this obvious precondition, we never get to the point.

How ever, what I meant is that the love that Leonard is speaking of in the future is a kind og absolute love which humans cannot acchieve on their own.It much come through G.O.Ds grace. But in Leonards song it seems that G.O.Ds gracesful love comes in the shape of judgment, in the shape of destruction of self, and in the shape of destruction of any structure of being. as I understand the lyric he therefore combines the buddhist idea of nirvana ("now the wheels of heaven stop") which involves exactly destruction of the illusory concept of self, with the jewish christian ideas of judgement and grace. However the main point seems to be that the destruction is a part of G.O.Ds plan and because of that there might be hope in the horror. The destruction of every categori is not only a buddhist thought, but also the situation of many existencialistic writers. Every meningfuld structure has dissapeart and therefore there is no essens in life. This is a terrifying experience which the individual can only live through in spite of. However I feel that there is some hope in Cohens text, because the subject who speaks is "the little jew who wrote the bible" the one knows that every story told by the nations is nothing but stories, the one who serves the listener by saying it is over and that it wont be going any further.

I will be posting a major reading of this and 2 other LC texts on the files later this summer. Hope we get a good talk about it.

Peter
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:26 pm

Thank you Peter- this explains your thought
How ever, what I meant is that the love that Leonard is speaking of in the future is a kind og absolute love which humans cannot acchieve on their own.It much come through G.O.Ds grace
bee
Post Reply

Return to “Comments & Questions”