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bee
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Post by bee » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:06 am

JMFlash- it was sad to read u writing, it shows how little you knowabout the realities of the world, the past and the present. You are born in USA, good for you, have some respect, don't diss your country, when the enemy shoots at your brothers, bad manners!
we are at this point in history when communism is basically dead. the french still voted for "trotskyite" parties in such numbers, 12% of the total vote, that the regular socialists got knocked out of election so that it was le pen vs. chirac. bit lets call that a french moment. marxism outside of the confines of elitist universities in the first world (the islands of noam chomsky), is basically a totally spent political force. and the few marxist societies that exist are totally pathetic, cuba, north korea, vietnam with a partially capitalist economy, and of course china. which is a bizarre mix of pseudo cowboy capitalism along the coastal economic zones. and 1,000.000.000 poverty striken peasants in the hinterlands that still mourn for the "steel rice bowl".

the main battle in the world today is hardly that of marxism and "cowboy" or any other type of capitalism, but that of fundamentalist islam and the secular west. and since the secular west holds all the obvious cards, this makes the fight that more bizzare.

nobody really knows how to deal with a certain percentage of the population that is willing to kill themseves for their religous-political worldview. sadly while the western judeo-christian world has moved into a predominantly secular stage (at least in the first world), islam has somehow melted back into the dark ages. their only two noble prize winning authors either get stabbed in the neck or get fatwas issued against them (salman rushdie). they are in so many ways turning into patriarchal "dark age" societies. the wonderul islamic openess and scientific and social brilliance of cordoba in the fifteenth century has long plunged into the islamic darkness of the last three centuries.

in political structure, in the relationship between women and men, in science, literature, the arts, democratic institutions, (outside of the turkic vis.a vis the kurdish part of the population in turkey), the islamic world has plunged into de pits, tumshuma, de religion of the poor of the world.

that is what our whole conversation is about, and the inter-action between the first world, and even countries of the striving "second world" like india and china AND RADICAL ISLAM (and its many political deformation, like sadam and so many others.)
Juss open your eyes man, and try to look at the world without u socialistic blubbering, we had enough of dat, perhaps feels nice to u, juss makes me sick.
we've been there and seen dat
bee
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Post by bee » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:21 am

Lizzy, Love, everything i kool and good, I love LC and I love u, because u feel him soo well and u understand him so well- I could never in million years. I'been reading everything u said about his art, music and peotry- I'm learning so much from you, and there is so much more to know!
Love,
bee
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Post by bee » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:36 am

JMFlash- Hitler drinkin' poison, still dead, Eva Braun-dead, Stalin- dead-kaput, saddam Hussein- out-kaput! Will never come back!
bin laden-will be dead :evil:
bee
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Post by bee » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:12 am

JMFlash juss try to remember European history, and not so along ago, before u talk about USA-
the medical experimenting on children. the murder of over 1,000,000 jewish children. the mass shootings of tens of thousands. the shipping out of every kind of person to concentration camps. gas chambers. shooting small girls in the head. old women starved to death. people burned to death in houses of worship. the murder of tens of thousands of polish officers. the murder of thousands of latvian intellectuals and teachers. the murder of tens of thousands of baltic people in kolyma alone. the burning to death of many thousands of people, the clubbing to death for pleasure of innocent people in the streets of kovno, the mass pits of rumbuli. the torture chambers of the riga police, while under the control of the bolsheviks. the shooting of endless numbers and varieties of people in open fields. in pits filled with parts of human fecie, blood, and brain parts. executioners shooting children at close range, splattering themselves with brain parts of their victims. soldiers taking children from their mothers arms and slamming them against walls. killing thousands of priests. killing tens of thousands of homosexuals. driving naked women into the wintertime cold of the baltic and then shooting thousands of them in the freezing water. lining up people in a row to see how many you can shoot with one bullet. starving people to death by the millions in the camps of kolyma and norilsk and 120 more gulags. sending millions of people to death in unheated cattle cars. mass rape of women. the burning down of hundreds of small villages. the indescriminate terror of the lenins red death. the murder of one half of the chechen people. the deaths of tens of thousands that could not fit into cattle cars in the mountains of chechnya and ingushteria. the murder of kalmuks. the murder of karelians. the murder of hundreds of different nationalities in your lifetime, by russians, by germans, by poles, by lithuanians, by latvian arajas commandos, by romanian black death squads. the butcher of serbs by croats. by croats of serbs. by serbs and croats of bosnian muslims. of chicagi by the hundreds of thousands. the murder of albanians. the murder of 10,000 bosnian muslim men and boys. the mass rape of muslim women. the forced expulsion of turkic muslims from bulgaria. the torture of pomaks in bulgaria. the slaughter of workers by communists in east berlin in 1953. the killing by communists of all varieties of people in hungary in 1956. in poznan. the shipping out and killing of czech patriots in 1968. the arrest and torture or gunars astra. the murder of millions and millions of people. by family groups. by communities. whole nations. and that is just in the last 75 years of european history. and only a small small part of the list. are u that stupid and ignorant that you don't realize that you don't come from a part of the world that has been the biggest slaughter house in human history. nothing even comes close in comparison, in the duration of the horror, or the numbers or the varieties of slaughter and inhumanity.

make believe mayhem and terror are ignorant and everywhere, in all corners of the world. but there is a huge difference of european systems that have murdered some 50,000,000 people, and random acts of violence in the United States. random acts of cruelty. random acts of crazy people being crazy.
Before u say a word about usa, think about the past of europe.
Hitler is dead, Eva Braun- dead, Stalin-dead- kaput!
bee
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Paula
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Post by Paula » Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:14 pm

I take my hat off to you Kush, Peter D and Bee - I could not begin to put my views in the concise, intelligent and informative way you three have (I wish I could). You all talk a hell of a lot of sense.
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Post by Tim » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:38 pm

bee - though all your examples are indeed European, and tragic as they are, it scarcely means that Europe has had a monopoly on mass-murder, even in the last century. It's rather a fact of human history. If you wanted to, you could add year zero in Cambodia, the Japanese invasion of Manchuria and in the Pacific, the fate of the Native Americans, Cortez, etc... but the real point would be that they were perpetrated by humans, against humans. You're unlikely to win many converts to your arguments with an apparent holier-than-thou attitude of the US versus Europe. You do get a lot of credit though for knowing the difference between Marxism/Communism and Socialism, if only every online pundit was the same!

PS I don't think Saddam was a political deformation of radical Islam - rather that he adopted the Islamic cause to garner more support once he was opposed to the US. His Ba'ath party was, as far as I recall, concerned with pan-Arab nationalism rather than Islam, and indeed his foreign minister (?) Tariq Aziz was a Christian, hardly likely in a radically Islamic regime.

PPS "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - I've never read this to mean the Dr. Johnson (the originator of the quote) meant that all patriots were scoundrels - rather, that a 'scoundrel' would appeal to patriotism when he could appeal to nothing else - possibly Saddam did this? I don't think Dr Johnson was a scoundrel, or never loved his country, as you suggest, as I don't think that of Bob Dylan when he adapted the quote as "The say that patriotism is the last refuge/To which a scoundrel clings/Steal a little and they put you in jail/Steal a lot and they make you king". Loving your country does not mean loving everything that is done in its name. To loosely (and possibly inappropriately) quote another favourite of mine, GK Chesterton 'To say "my country, right or wrong" is as ridiculous as saying "my mother, drunk or sober"'
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:34 pm

Dear Bee ~

Thank you so much for your high compliment regarding my 'knowing Leonard so well' ~ are you sure it was my posts you were reading :wink: ?
I 'know' Leonard from a 'feeling' level ~ not an intellectual one, nor a literary, historical, spiritual, or biblical one. There are true Leonard scholars and afficionados, who truly know the background and realms of knowledge, from whence the material in his songs generate. I, not quite literally, but nearly so, know very little of those things. Leonard's music and words affect me on an emotional/spiritual plane, yet I love their high intellect and intelligence.

However, to "know" him, I believe would encompass the ability to verbalize, regarding all of those things, just as a beginning. In fact, there are those who can do that, and then proceed to create a web of connections besides. Yes, there is so much more to know, but if you want to become well informed regarding Leonard, I seriously suggest you look to some of those here who have made it their 'business' to acquire so much information and data on him, and the realms from which his music comes. [If you want names, I can give them to you :D .]

Ohhhhh, how I appreciate your words, however :D ~ and how I wish I could simply demure with a grateful 'thank you' ~ knowing that what you were saying is true. However, I really feel it's necessary to clarify right up front. Meanwhile, thank you for being so willing to say such a loving and generous thing. It's a tall order that I only wish I could live up to. I'll likely die simply 'loving Leonard's words and music,' with all that, that means to my heart and soul.

Love,
Lizzy
bee
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Post by bee » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:18 am

Tim~ :)
I am not surprised
that many people in europe , would find nothing wrong with the koran and saddam, is hardly a surprise. women are 3/5 the worth of a man. muhammed marries his beloved second wife, ayesha (daughter of a prominant merchant from medina) at age 6 and consumates his marriage to her at age 9. when he is 56 years old would i am sure be a perfect dream fo many muslim (and not only muslim) dreammarriage of de future.
some would love dat total dumbass religion, that tries ot kill its few decent authors, the egyptian noble prize author naguib mahfouz, stabbed in the neck by an islamist, and barely surviving (because of slight perceived insult to the pedophile muhammed), and of course the fatwa issued against the british (east indian author salman rushdie), by the shiia cretin khomeini.
about saddamn. i can also understand fascination of some with dat dude. i'm sure in europe(by some sweet memories) of the past, thre are many who would love to shoot all those kurdish prisoners that where brought to herr saddam- hero, to be shoot in de head with a nice browning, 30 at a time. saddam thought it was really fun. he laughed as he shoot each one of the kurds in the head.
as a matter of fact i can see de heros of de past in europe nazi-dude standing at rumbuli, killing all those evil 'juden' children in the head. just like hero baathist saddamnite heroes shot thousands of kurdish and shiia children in the mass graves located throughout the land of the next "saladin", saddamn.

and i am sure nazi dudes would have enjoyed the anfal campaigns in kurdistan in the late 1980's that destroyed some 3,000 kurdish villages, and killed some 180,000 people. that certainly would have been perfect fo them . to watch the slaughter.

may bee the most enjoyable moment for admirers of saddamnhitlerstalinbinladen would have been the loudspeakers in najaf that announced a huge picnic for the citizens of the city and told them all to assemble at the center of town. thousands of shiia arabs came. women, men, thousands of children, old people. they where all suddenly sprayed by helicopters carrying gasoline, and then set on fire. right up yo taste- herr nazibinladen

or maybe they would have enjoyed the beautiful architecture student that urday saddam (one of his now dead sons) saw on the street. had her kidnapped, raped her till she was useless for his "pleasure", and then fed her, still alive to his dogs. exactly right, those bad bad evil americans juss comin in and stoppin' all the great fun the boys were havin'
yeh, i can see, some must be really upset, i am NOT
bee
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Post by Tim » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:25 am

bee

what??? where do you get from my posting any idea that 'many people in Europe' (presumably you include me in this slur) would support Saddam Hussein? I take extreme offence at this suggestion, mostly personally but also as a European. Say what you want from now on, I won't be here reading it.
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Post by bee » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:41 am

Tim~ the paralels ~ the past of europe~ recent past- Iraq. do not be offended, please
i was not talking yo post- more the post of JMFlash
who is adoring herr bin laden
adressed to u, because yo post was one above, forgive me please :) :(
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Post by bee » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:38 am

Lizzy :D love, thank u for yo post, brings light and beauty back :)
i want be goin' back to those thoughts of the death and murder, makes me wanna cry :cry: i better will follow yo lead and go on listenin what leonard has to say, better fo my soul.
Lizzy, us sure have dat deep insight into his art, which i consider as a gift from the lord :) i'll be back on other thread, no more darkness fo me
love
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witty_owl
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Post by witty_owl » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:31 am

Bee, :? You should quit while your behind. :(

This patronising, misunderstood, over-informed bigotry is going nowhere.

Regards, W.O.
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Post by George.Wright » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:43 am

Bee, are you a russian jew living in San Francisco? If so i would understand your posts. The Nazi's were bastards, so was Stalin. Saddam no different, as was Pol Pot, Vlad the impaler, Cortez, Capt Cook, etc.
All humanity in power are bastards, no one can use the power for peace.
Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
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Insanitor
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Post by Insanitor » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:12 am

Well, one thing is certain and that is that Mr OBL is articulate and reasoned - unlike his warmongering counterpart Mr Dubya.

Bee, centuries of human behaviour in Europe (which has been 'civilised' for centuries unlike the US) are not a shield to hide behind when questioned about the countless atrocities committed by the US.

Few would disagree with your (somewhat rabid) summary of what has happened in Europe, or that it was wrong, devastating or pointless. It is heartening to see that others have noticed that it is not solely a "European condition". However, it would be fair now to have a reasoned tally of the numbers killed by US armies or puppets thereof, and which have occurred even in the last fifty years. It is nothing but shameful. And lets not talk about Native Americans.
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Insanitor
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Post by Insanitor » Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:15 am

To follow on from Monsieur Georges

'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men'.

Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887.
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