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Post by bee » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:33 pm

Lizzy- Satan makes his point too, when he says that one day he is going to rise up and replace God. Also, Satan makes his point when he says that he does not exist.
God have marcy on every living soul when Bin Laden
&Co comes to power.
And isn't Bin Laden the one who also wants to destroy Israel? So, what is this guy bin-laden-murderer-doing on LC files and forum? :x
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Post by lizzytysh » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:42 pm

I agree with the things you're saying here, jm. Since this is a current release, it also sounds :cry: like there is even more chaos and tragedy to come :cry: . I was surprized to hear that there was some 'negotiating' going on in Iraq, in an eleventh-hour attempt to quell the record-high violence and deaths occurring to troops [and others, i.e. Iraqi civilians ~ but that's not the focus that it's given, by those choosing to negotiate] in Iraq.

Bee ~ the point that I make has to do with our lauding someone one day, and villifying them the next, according to our [selfish and greedy] purposes. Our government has supported people 'like bin Laden,' to put and keep them in power, until the relationship ~ for whatever reason ~ goes awry. I don't see him [bin Laden] coming 'to power,' but there is clearly an ominous tone to his release, knowing that the U.S. doesn't seem inclined toward 'bargaining.'

It's very scarey. We're very fortunate here to be able to go to the store without [daily/hourly] wondering if we'll make it back, or whether a car bomb/suicide bomber will wipe us out. It may not always be that way. Our personal freedoms are disappearing, and the one of feeling safe may be on its way out, too. The Bible says to "love your enemy" or words to that effect, right? We certainly don't have to have him for dinner, but at least trying to see the situation through his eyes wouldn't hurt, for a start.
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Post by Paula » Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:12 pm

Fortunately we have the luxury of not having to choose how to react to a foreign government that comes into our country and murders our family members. Quote

Jm - I don't know what country you hail from but believe me we might not have governments who come into our country and murder but we have their agents. Terrorists will not go away just because you ask them. In Britain at the moment believe it or not our Goverment is threatening to sue soldiers who fire in self defence if it is decided the threat was not as bad as the soldiers first perceived. Whilst I do not have much faith in western goverments at the moment, I know who I would not like to be "governed" by.
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Post by peter danielsen » Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:48 pm

It is interessting to see he how Osama Bin laden has succeded in giving the impression that the western world, especialy the US, is to blame for the problems in the middleeast and the wast majority of the muslim world.

However I feel that some points could be made against this theory:

One of the richest and indeed most powerful countries in the world is Saudia Arabia. This country controles some of greatest shares of the worlds oil resources and is therefore - sadly enough - also extreemly powerful. US depend on them in a rather tragic way.

Now this rich country is being controlled by a very small group of people, who could easily give their people much better living standards. They Could very easily help other muslim countries like Palestine to much better lifes. But the leaders do not. They want the oil, the money and the power for themselves.

This situation should lead to a major revolution from the surpressed muslim brothers and sister in and out of Saudia Arabia. Why doesnt it? Because the same leaders support with hudge fundings terrorist like Osama Bin Laden. He claims that the western world and the western perverted lifestyle is to blame for the problems of muslims. The same perverted lifestyle which by the way gives him the freedom to speak.

In the same way a guy like Arafat has luck by funding groups like Hamas, so that the conflict with Israel can continiue. As long as the palestinian people feel that the only evil part in the conflict is Israel, then they will continue to support Arafats corrupt leadership.

And what do the intellectual left in Europe and US do. They turn the chriticismen towards their own democracies. They give the nobel peace price to Arafat. They support the Saudi governments plan of keeping wealth to themselves, by turning the chritique against the democratic elected governments in the west. And why do they do that? Because intellectual of the left, as those guys on the right (remember the killer from Europe) has no realization of sin, they strongly have faith in the thought of doing and seeing the good. The are superior to the forces of money and power. The can tell the rest of us what the society should be like. And this always end with the gaschambers for those not willing to support their goodness.

On the thing about the US supporting Osama bin laden at a certain point, so now it should be moraly wrong to try to stop him. Well why did the US support Osama? Was it not because he struggled against the former USSR in Afghanistan. The old communist empire who had their misiles pointed againt the western democracies. It was the clear intention of the USSR to aim at world socialism. The western world lead by the US wants democracy, freedom of speach. They did not want socialism, I dont either. We have lots of problems to solve in the western world, but I strongly support that the problems should be solved by free debate, not by some group of people or priest who claim to know what is good and just on behalf of the people.

I believe - as I said ealier - that democracy is a constant process, the right of which we have to deffend against persons like Osama. If he gets the power of his heart. Women can just shut up. Freedom of spech will be abbandoned. The concept of mercy will be replaced by the concept of honour on the part of the one who according to the law has been offended.

Peter
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Post by bee » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:11 am

Peter, thank you, well done!!!
I loath to hear that name of bin laden.
To analyze his "writing" seems to me offensive~to the memory of people he murdered on Sept.11, laughing happily later.
Don't forget September 11, I will not, ever.
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Post by Kush » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:27 am

Here are excerpts from an interview with our very own home-grown terrorist Tim McVeigh. Can you see the similarities? He sounds extremely rational too.
Irrational men can appear rational when it suits them, they just dont have a balanced perspective of the world, nor do they have control over their irrational urges. Their only cause is anarchy.
Arafat may be corrupt as hell but he has a cause.
Who are your favorite authors of political philosophy?

Patrick Henry, John Locke, of course many of the Founding Fathers: George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Samuel Adams. I thought those men were, at the time they were extremely well-educated. They could talk us in circles these days, we wouldn't know what they were talking about. I really respected their observations and analyses of history past.

What is your feeling about our system of tax?

I think one of the intents of the Founding Fathers in keeping to indirect taxation, and really not providing for direct taxation except in unusual circumstances, was to keep government limited. They realized that the more income the government had, the larger it would grow. Our President told us during the subcommittee hearings on crime and terrorism that we should not be focused on Ruby Ridge and Waco, we should be focusing on bombs. Well, that's the tendency toward a narrow view that is contributing to the problem. Each one of these events that I've named are just symptoms. A good physician is going to examine the symptoms to find the disease. And no one's paying attention to what the disease is. They are not trying to identify it. All they're trying to do is to treat the symptoms. People have to really analyze, step back and try to think what is the cause of all this? It's all inter-related, whether it be the events I named or the growing resentment of taxation in America, obtrusive government. There is larger problem.

Do you think our democratic system permits a full airing out of grievances that anyone might have against the government?

I believe there are many checks and balances built into our system of government. However, I think many of them have been circumvented and right now you have an arrogance of attitude, an omnipotent attitude. An example would be property seizure, asset seizure. If it's unjustified, what do you have to do to get the stuff back? You have to sue. They know that people don't have the money to sue the federal government, to go up against their unlimited resources.

You said you became disillusioned with war during the Gulf War experience. Could you tell me why?

When you're on the ground, and you're not in the rear of the action, you're right up front, you realize that the people fighting are no different from you. They've got a wife and kids at home, they've got a family. They don't want to be out there. And you don't want to be there. You realize you must fire on them or be killed yourself, that's the reality of war. When we took most of the surrendering Iraqis the first day and saw how badly they had been treated and learned that the Republican Guard was behind them, not to back them up, but to make them hold in position, it completely changed your view of the war.
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Post by witty_owl » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:27 pm

At first I was not going to post at this thread but... on second thoughts, perhaps I could also make a fool of myself and wade in where angels fear to....
Quote cliche- "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".
What is all this talk of my country/your country? My beliefs/your beliefs.
Violence as legitimate warfare by an elected government is okay but violence by a rag tag bunch of terrorists is despicable?
Why do people still talk with these assumed national/religious divisions? I must be a naive anachronistic old hippie; but I thought we were all part of one world- one people- one universe if it ever comes to that.
Okay I love my country but my country is my spirit of place. The place where I live and breathe. The local region where I roam and dream. My country is not the whole of Australia. If I say I love Australia then I also love any other part of the world where I can roam and socialise with whom-ever I meet. How come in this modern world (especially with web communications) that we do not yet think of ourselves as planetary citizens. Are we still bogged down with the "us and them" paradigm?
I see that Bin Laden and his ilk are the other side of the same coin where we have Bush, Blair, Howard and their ilk. Takes two to tango and it takes willing partners to wage a war or a tit for tat terrorist conflict. Eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth philosophy has done nothing but make optometrists and dentists richer. (not to mention undertakers) It is all business as usual and no amount of justification or demonising can ever bring this fiasco to the high moral ground for any side. We are at the mercy of clowns who are running their own agenda. I did not vote for howard or bush or bin laden or saddam but I am subjected to the consequenses of their actions. Thankfully today I do not live in Iraq or Palestine or New York but I sympathise with those who do. The world as a stage is determined to act out this appalling drama and some of us will be dragged in while others will look on in horror.
Still I dream of the day when we have little more to discuss than music, writing, dancing or painting. When the sword will become the ploughshare for the last time.

Regards, Witty Owl.
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Post by lizzytysh » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:17 pm

I agree with your well-stated position, Witty. If anything that I cited or said, in my own response previously, seems to contradict that, then I need to revise how I stated my position previously.

~ Elizabeth
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Post by bee » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:57 pm

WO- I read your post and the first thought is- Peter was so right in his post, please WO, go back there and read it again. Obvisously you are a very gentle person, a very nice one, however- there is something missing, and that missing piece is ~reality!
"Quote cliche- "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"."- you wrote
I think that that clishe Quote is a a quote of a scoundrel.
Comes from a person who has never loved his country and the safety of his family, his past or his future. An ugly coward, that who this person is.

"What is all this talk of my country/your country? My beliefs/your beliefs.
Violence as legitimate warfare by an elected government is okay but violence by a rag tag bunch of terrorists is despicable?
Why do people still talk with these assumed national/religious divisions"- WO wrote.
What and why is this talk of my country, and yours etc.- because it does exist- because it is a reality. And also I am quite sure- if bin laden&co and the gang of unelected murderers would come to your country to commit the bloody crimes, you propably would be the first one to scream to your elected officials (you callin now murderers) to come up and defend you. Of course, than you would also see, that it is NOT the same coin- just two sides.
And there are not just assumed religious devisions- they exist. Of course- I do like the poetic idea and singing along- "we are the world, we are the children" however- the reality is- we are so very far from that, as far as ever before. Some children of the world think that everyone born is already muslim, and if so- one has to worship Allah, in if not, than they are traitors to Allah, and thus must to destroyed, in honor to Allah and justice( the more the better, especially those who live a good life )In a strange way it all comes very close to communistic ideas- just different phrasing. Let's punsih the rich and liberate the poor- so we could all live happily ever after. Does not work!
Now you are horrified about what's going on in Iraq- but I am quite sure, You were not pondering about the subject when Saddam Hussein was in power there, but that was really a horror story, just nobody wanted to know. Like in Soviet Union Stalin regime, when the world outside didnt have a clue what is going on in those Gulag's behind the iron curtain. But know we know, and now is much to late. Half of my family died in Gulag, including my poor grandma, people taken out of the beds in the middle of night, with small naked children, tossed on the train without a food and clothe, taken to Siberia to die slowly and painfuly. So please, don't give me that - I can tell you more horror stories, just don't want to disturb your gentle soul. just that evil exists, and Stalin was one of them and so was Saddam Hussein, and if there are still people in Iraque who would cry for him, than there are stil people in Russia, who are crying for the lost empire and power of Stalin. That is pure evil, and the fight will go forever. The golden age of peace and love has not yet come, dear Witty Owl, so be patient please and wait a bit more, and than ask question, - why, oh why we are fighting, love[/quote]
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Post by Linda » Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:51 pm

I very seldom visit this forum any longer, and could not believe when I finally do I run into this lunatic thread.
I came back to post but Bee you have said it all. I couldn't agree more with what you and Peter and Kush have said. And also whoever that said, something to the effect of, what a thread for the Leonard Cohen message board. :cry:
Linda
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Post by bee » Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:55 am

JMFlash- Hitler is dead- kaput, Eva Braun-kaput, Stalin-dead, Saddam-out-kaput, buumm! So will be osama bin ladin- kaput and dead!
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:43 am

Dear Bee ~

I am so deeply sorry to hear of the tragedy and horror of your grandmother's and other relatives' deaths in Gulag under Stalin :cry: . I am truly sorry. With what I say, I do not mean to suggest that I feel this kind of diabolical cruelty is okay in any way, for anyone. Even if you can't understand or agree with what I am saying, I pray and hope that you at least understand that much....with regard to where my heart is at, regarding people losing their lives for reasons of absolute unacceptability. I don't emotionally or ethically sanction these horrific acts. I also do know that evil men exist.

My lament is that people die needlessly and senselessly when we [by that I mean the war machine of the U.S. Government] can't seem to 'remember' from one day to the next which ones [we think] are evil. We supported Saddam at one time, as well. The 'axis of evil' comes to mind when I say that. We proclaim it, even though we may have acted totally differently last year, and may do the same next year ~ with regard to the same countries, the same leaders. When decisions are economically based, rather than humanitarian based, the inconsistencies that come with the former are going to result in loss of many innocent lives.

My heart goes out to your grandmother and the other members of your family who were lost. Please understand that my spirit grieves when I imagine such horrible endings of innocent people's lives :cry: . It hurts to think of the children, looking to their parents for protection, unable to understand why they won't feed or dress them to make them warm :cry: .

I am so sorry :cry: .

Love,
Elizabeth
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Post by jmflash » Thu Apr 22, 2004 4:39 am

I think most of you have missed my point. The point is that you have no right to judge a man. Especially us that live in powerful industrial countries. As the war machine is driven by the politicians and businessmen, it is fueled by the working class. Bee, why are you so quick to compare Osama to Hitler, but not Bush or Blair? How many innocents killed is the US responsible for? How many dictators have been kept in power by them? Bee, you say you will always remember September 11 of the US. What about September 11 of Chile, and the installation of Pinochet and the US supporting him for 30 years. If you look at US allies, many of them dictators or imperialists. Peter, look at how the US supports Saudi Arabia. There are certain members of the Saudi government that give bin Laden money, but bin Laden says he hates that government and it is his goal to destroy it. Paula, you compare a few random terrorist acts to what takes place in Afghanistan and Iraq. That is insanity. Those countries have been absolutely demolished by imperialism. Saddam was terrible, this is true, but look at things now. For the past decade, children have been refused food, clean water, medical supplies, hospitals were destroyed, the education system was destroyed, the country used to function-now it does not. You are concerned with protecting against terrorists. But why are you so afraid? Why do you not worry instead about creating new ones? Why do you not think instead of offering peace to your enemy? Your enemies will never make peace in the face of hatred-it is the absence of hatred that leads to peace. This is an eternal truth. Bee you call this man Satan. What would you do if you lived in Iraq now? If you saw your children, your brothers and sisters, your mother and father, starving, dying. I am a US citizen. In the years of sanctions it was illegal to give food to those in Iraq. What kind of government makes it ILLEGAL to feed starving children? And do you think this country is really that great? 300 years of slavery, 100 years of Jim Crow, genocide for the native Americans, and look at things now. Sure you may be doing well, but go downtown, look at how others do. Go visit a prison, what color people do you see there? Is that fair? You all seem to think America is fine because it is the best option. Is there not another option, to change the world and make it a more peaceful place? How do you think this can ever be accomplished? I was born an American, and it took a long time for me to breakdown that arrogant mentality that Americans have, but I ask you again, you are all so offended by bin Laden, are you also equally offended by the genocide in Iraq? Do you even know what has gone on there? How do you feel about the 1 million children killed there? Who do think is responsible for that? What do you think should now be done?
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Post by bee » Thu Apr 22, 2004 4:41 am

Lizzy, darling dear :) there is no need for u to apologise. You are the sweetest and humane person one is lucky to meet in life. God bless you!
I cant even express my appreciation, how good it feels to have you as a friend :) '
As for the politics of the day- the alliances in politics between countries have always been switched- trough the history of the world. The USA is not the only one, who are friends today with somebody~ and enemies tommorow. So do people. The allies come and go, new problems and interests rise, nothing ever stays the same. What stays the same- the fight between the good and evil, no matter how plain it sounds. No matter how shiny, brave and seductive the evil can dress up, it'll show the true self trough the deeds. The devil could dress up as a gentleman- just one foot would be without the shoe- that's where one can see the true nature of the cabaljero. And one more little detail is always present- if somebody wants to destroy the jews and Israel, i know where that is coming from.
I am not a jew, but for me thas detail is very sagnificant. As they say- follow the money- I would say- follow that hatred.
I love you Elizabeth! That is my mother's name :D
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:44 am

Dear Bee ~

Thank you for understanding what I meant, was saying, and how I feel. That means a lot.

The dilemma with countries/allies switching vs. friends switching is that ~ hopefully ~ the switching of friends is not economically based. The obsession with and endless seeking of the power and money are what seem to me to be the evil. Out of that grows all the rest. You're right that the disguises can fool.

Thanks again. I feel relieved.

Love,
Elizabeth [your non-mother one :) ]
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